How fast is Tau railgun?

[Ryan Thunder]

- They don't have superior armour.

Depends on who they are fighting. Their infantry armor is packed with electronics and is therefore superior to standard guardsmen in both protection and systems. About stormtrooper level, maybe more or less but somwhere in that area.

Gav Thorpe seems to think its just fancy flak armour. Was that an aberration?

Their infantry is NOT superior to Space Marines,

Certainly not. That would be ridiculous.

but than again you are not supposed to compare the two. Space Marines are not the average line infantry of the IOM. Depending on the sources there might be as little as a few hundred million of them across imperial space.

I am comparing pulse rifles to Astartes bolters, but that aside, no, I'm not comparing them to Space Marines.

Between their power armour, skillset, and the other equipment they have access to in addition to bolters (which I fully expect to turn a fully-armoured Tau Fire Warrior into paste) Shas shouldn't be a huge threat to Astartes just because they have a better gun.

Space Marines should be compared to other Elite Heavy Troops or in other words Tau Battlesuits.

Battlesuits are more like special weapons carriers. It's kind of reflexive to compare the two but I think they have more in common with Sentinels, really.

I don't think the Tau have anything that's equivalent to a Space Marine on its own.

Can somebody explain to me how they're supposed to survive the attentions of the Imperial Guard, the Orks, and (soon) the Tyranids?

IOM - The one time they did win was because the IOM had to divert to fight the Nids.

Well, without wanting to sound snarky, you're missing the point.

If we listen to minimalists and go with the fluff that portrays them as only marginally superior to the Imperial Guard man-for-tau, GW created a faction that is absolutely and totally unsustainable. They're going to have to keep coming up with excuses for them to continue existing.

Alternatively, we can just accept that they have some impressive tech and that allows them to hold their own in spite of their small numbers and industrial base, and that yes, some of it is better than what Space Marines would get and that this isn't the end of the universe or whatever. Nobody seems to be bothered when Orks have some big guys who can tear a Space Marine limb from limb. Or kill a Terminator with a bear hug. Tau certainly don't have anything like that.

There might be more fluff behind the alternative, but the supposedly "wanky" solution requires less in the way of mental gymnastics and deus ex machinas saving their asses at the end of the day, and it's hardly without precedent.

[Stark]

Its a sad situation when 'okay vs spess mahrins' means 'wank' in 40k. The whole idea that they're small, separate, never fight a serious enemy but have some good capabilities is apparently deeply offensive to people; they even say 'omg how can they survive' when apparently they go out of their way to avoid direct confrontation. Just like those Eldar guys I guess.

[NecronLord]

Gav Thorpe seems to think its just fancy flak armour. Was that an aberration?

My understanding, I cannot source this, except in RPG terms, is that it's carapace-equivalent.

There might be more fluff behind the alternative, but the supposedly "wanky" solution requires less in the way of mental gymnastics and deus ex machinas saving their asses at the end of the day, and it's hardly without precedent.

This is irrelevant if you don't expect the Tau to last long in universe. Personally, I sorta like them and 'They are pets of a stronger power' works just fine for me.

Of course I like our C'tan worshipping friend O'Shova best of all.

[Lancer]

The Damocles Gulf Crusade was certainly not a particularly big force.

Its order of battle comes to, roughly;
12 x capital ships, known to include -
1 x Retribution-class battleship (HDMS Blade of Woe)
1 x Overlord-class battle cruiser (HDMS Niobe)
2 x Lunar-class cruiser (HDMS Centaur & HDMS Honour of Damlass)
1 x Gothic-class cruiser (HDMS Lord Cedalion)

1 x Astartes Strike Cruiser (Fist of Light, Iron Hands allegiance)
At least 7 x Astartes escorts (including Nomad, White Scars allegiance)
Unknown number of light cruisers, including HDMS Regent Lakshimbai (Dauntless-class)
At least 16 escort-class vessels (14 destroyed over Pra'yen, with 2 more damaged beyond practicable repair)

And for ground forces -
5 x provisional companies of Astartes drawn from 12 Chapters (including contingents from the Iron Hands, Scythes of the Emperor, Ultramarines and White Scars)
19 x Guard regiments (including 17th Brimlock Dragoons, 9th Brimlock Fusiliers & the Rakarshan Rifles' ??th Regiment)
At least 1 x Stormtrooper Company (the 4th)
A detachment of Titans from the Legio Thanataris

All in all, not exactly the Sabbat Worlds Crusade.

To give you an idea of how tiny the scale of the Damocles Gulf campaign actually was, an Imperial Guard expeditionary force sent to contain a suspected Genestealer infestation on Periremunda (a provincial world near the Damocles Gulf) contained almost a dozen regiments, and an additional two additional divisions of Guard (and an Imperial Guard battlegroup) were dispatched by subsector command to reinforce once it was confirmed as a target of a splinter fleet.

That's right, the Imperial Guard commitment to the entire Damocles Gulf crusade was matched (or possibly even exceeded) by what was deployed to keep a relatively unimportant world in the same region of space from a Tyranid splinter fleet.

[Lancer]

Whoops, that should have read an additional two divisions of Guard and an Imperial Navy battlegroup.

[Srelex]

Well, in fairness, a genestealer infestation is probably less overt and more threatening than Tau intefering, to the Imperium anyway. The Tau don't tend to completely consume their Imperial subjects for biomass after all.

[Purple]

Well, without wanting to sound snarky, you're missing the point.

If we listen to minimalists and go with the fluff that portrays them as only marginally superior to the Imperial Guard man-for-tau, GW created a faction that is absolutely and totally unsustainable. They're going to have to keep coming up with excuses for them to continue existing.

There is no need to come up with excuses.
There is a truly valid explanation.

They are so small no one cares enough to attack them properly.
To weak to attract any reasonable orks? Check
To small to feed the tentacle of a hive ship? Check
They can't do any more damage to the IOM than what routinely happens due to things like clerical errors? Check

And what little things people do throw at them they can either dodge or outfight.

[Lancer]

Well, in fairness, a genestealer infestation is probably less overt and more threatening than Tau intefering, to the Imperium anyway.

That is exactly what it boils down to.

[asedra]

I remember that there is a info in Andy Hoare that says that Tau hypervelocity rounds stronger than the Imperium's weapons or something like that.
Since it's written by Andy Hoare I assume that is a Tau wank.

-So, when its another sci fi franchise, its wank, but when its star wars, its > instant cool? Your a very puerile and hypocritical bunch. I guess you've all been isolated (and insulated) from reality for so long that your all simply incapable of seeing the inherant contradictions of your remarks.
-Long live SW (no limits fallacys)! We are invincible, primarily because george lucas is a recluse who makes things up as he goes along, and disney’s pinocchio seemed more scientifically credible than any of the films. You can’t beat a make believe contest with a crazy person who will go full retard on you!

[Lord Relvenous]

I remember that there is a info in Andy Hoare that says that Tau hypervelocity rounds stronger than the Imperium's weapons or something like that.
Since it's written by Andy Hoare I assume that is a Tau wank.

-So, when its another sci fi franchise, its wank, but when its star wars, its > instant cool? Your a very puerile and hypocritical bunch. I guess you've all been isolated (and insulated) from reality for so long that your all simply incapable of seeing the inherant contradictions of your remarks.
-Long live SW (no limits fallacys)! We are invincible, primarily because george lucas is a recluse who makes things up as he goes along, and disney’s pinocchio seemed more scientifically credible than any of the films. You can’t beat a make believe contest with a crazy person who will go full retard on you!

Yeah, you're not long for this world, I think. Some of us aren't even SW fans really. I haven't touched Pure Star Wars in a long time, so try again, little troll.

[adam_grif]

Its a sad situation when 'okay vs spess mahrins' means 'wank' in 40k. The whole idea that they're small, separate, never fight a serious enemy but have some good capabilities is apparently deeply offensive to people; they even say 'omg how can they survive' when apparently they go out of their way to avoid direct confrontation. Just like those Eldar guys I guess.

"If Faction X just got their act together they could totally overrun the galaxy!"

For values of "Faction X" equal to; Orks, Imperium of Man, Necrons, Tyranids, Chaos.

The only playable factions in 40k that don't have the capability to beat all other factions if it wasn't for pathetic excuse Y are the Tau and Eldar/Dark Eldar. If only the Emperor got better! If they could just organize one giant Waaaagh! If the Chaos gods could just agree to cooperate for one big crusade! When the next hive fleet arrives, you're all doomed! There are septillions of Necrons, if only they could just all wake up!

God, I like the Tau because they're the only race not populated by absolute retards. The Ethereals may be Orwellian but at least they can get shit done and know what's best for them. The idea that they're a young, scientifically enlightened race that managed to avoid everybody's folly by being immune to chaos and working together for collective good (even if it does have sinister undertones) is the least offensive thing in the entire 40k universe.

[Simon_Jester]

"If Faction X just got their act together they could totally overrun the galaxy!"

For values of "Faction X" equal to; Orks, Imperium of Man, Necrons, Tyranids, Chaos.

The only playable factions in 40k that don't have the capability to beat all other factions if it wasn't for pathetic excuse Y are the Tau and Eldar/Dark Eldar. If only the Emperor got better! If they could just organize one giant Waaaagh! If the Chaos gods could just agree to cooperate for one big crusade! When the next hive fleet arrives, you're all doomed! There are septillions of Necrons, if only they could just all wake up!

God, I like the Tau because they're the only race not populated by absolute retards. The Ethereals may be Orwellian but at least they can get shit done and know what's best for them. The idea that they're a young, scientifically enlightened race that managed to avoid everybody's folly by being immune to chaos and working together for collective good (even if it does have sinister undertones) is the least offensive thing in the entire 40k universe.

To be fair, I think everyone knows the Emperor isn't getting better. "He's a cripple and if we still had him around we'd be in better shape" isn't really a lame excuse in my opinion, it's just the way things work.

The Imperium has a lot of problems, but being ludicrously wanked isn't one of them. Indeed, they exist in large part to be the thing everyone else's strength is measured against... and everyone else among the galactic powers is said to be able to overrun them easily if only they could get their shit together.

EDIT: I mean, being ludicrously wanked by 40k standards.

In most settings they're impossibly over-the-top. But given the social and technological environment they operate in, I'm honestly not surprised they're as dysfunctional and fucked up as they are.

-Long live SW (no limits fallacys)! We are invincible, primarily because george lucas is a recluse who makes things up as he goes along, and disney’s pinocchio seemed more scientifically credible than any of the films. You can’t beat a make believe contest with a crazy person who will go full retard on you!

...who the fuck are you?

And what are you talking about?

[adam_grif]

To be fair, I think everyone knows the Emperor isn't getting better. "He's a cripple and if we still had him around we'd be in better shape" isn't really a lame excuse in my opinion, it's just the way things work.

It's a lame excuse because the entire galaxy spanning imperium was apparently dependent on him to operate, and has collapsed and degraded without this one man. I don't care if he's the love child of Superman and Jesus, the imperium must have been full of fools to let that happen. If it was the Emperor's fault, then he is the fool for structuring it like that. It's a galaxy wide super-empire with enough power to demolish all of its threats permanently except maybe Chaos and Tyranids (because they're both threats they can't directly get at, just their local manifestations), but don't because they're too busy masturbating over the Emporer's broken body and sending him get well soon cards.

[Stark]

Since the Emperor is almost literally god, trained Jesus and Buddha and was 40 feet tall the whole time but hid it with mind powers during the bronze age, I don't think its a stretch to imagine he's a fucking moron.

If only there was a middle ground between 'he's dead' and 'he's the setting-destroying Star Child GW has been jizzing over for 20 years', the setting might be interesting instead of juvenile.

[Lancer]

To be fair, I think everyone knows the Emperor isn't getting better. "He's a cripple and if we still had him around we'd be in better shape" isn't really a lame excuse in my opinion, it's just the way things work.

It's a lame excuse because the entire galaxy spanning imperium was apparently dependent on him to operate, and has collapsed and degraded without this one man. I don't care if he's the love child of Superman and Jesus, the imperium must have been full of fools to let that happen. If it was the Emperor's fault, then he is the fool for structuring it like that. It's a galaxy wide super-empire with enough power to demolish all of its threats permanently except maybe Chaos and Tyranids (because they're both threats they can't directly get at, just their local manifestations), but don't because they're too busy masturbating over the Emporer's broken body and sending him get well soon cards.

You missed the part where half of the leadership of the Imperium sided with Chaos during the Horus Heresy, and did their damnedest to wipe out the half that remained Loyalist. It wasn't just the Emperor that was sidelined, it was an almost complete decapitation blow against what was left of the command structure of the Imperium of Man.

They were lucky that Guiliman the Empire-Builder and his Ultrasmurfs were around to keep the Imperium from falling into complete disarray, otherwise it would have been another Age of Strife.

[Simon_Jester]

To be fair, I think everyone knows the Emperor isn't getting better. "He's a cripple and if we still had him around we'd be in better shape" isn't really a lame excuse in my opinion, it's just the way things work.

It's a lame excuse because the entire galaxy spanning imperium was apparently dependent on him to operate, and has collapsed and degraded without this one man.

Now just hold on a minute.

The guy gets beat into a coma at the climax of a galactic civil war. Said civil war also tears apart much of the Imperial military, weakening the state badly. The aftermath of the civil war further weakens the Empire, as the prewar forces are ground down suppressing threats that rampaged while the civil war was on. The remaining state, formerly held together largely by the sheer charisma and talent of the Emperor in the manner of the empires of Ghenghis Khan, Alexander the Great, or Napoleon, then proceeds to soldier on for ten thousand years before opposition that seems to have enough muscle to defeat it arises. And you think that's lame?

Shit, the Empire lasted longer with the Empire in a coma than it did without him. It lasted longer than the entire span of time between the first Stone Age river valley civilizations and the present day, largely managing to stand its ground. Only now, after those hundred centuries, do we see it decaying as the sheer endless pressure of keeping up constant warfare for all that time results in steady collapse of irreplaceable infrastructure.

How is that lame?

If only there was a middle ground between 'he's dead' and 'he's the setting-destroying Star Child GW has been jizzing over for 20 years', the setting might be interesting instead of juvenile.

What, like "he's in a coma and occasionally intervenes psychically at critical moments?" Which is how he's presented in the story, instead of the "I made something up so I could sneer at it" line?

[Stark]

Fuck off. The emperor can't ever complete the stupid upgrade and return because it would destroy the setting; being a reset button doesn't make the setting less juvenile. I know you're too fat to notice, but that entire sentence was sarcasm; any idiot could come up with a 'middle ground'. Sadly, GW are a special kind of idiots who will poorly plan, poorly execute and poorly continue with plotting decisions I'm convinced were made at 2am in a Nottingham pub.

[Thirdfain]

Fuck off. The emperor can't ever complete the stupid upgrade and return because it would destroy the setting; being a reset button doesn't make the setting less juvenile. I know you're too fat to notice, but that entire sentence was sarcasm; any idiot could come up with a 'middle ground'. Sadly, GW are a special kind of idiots who will poorly plan, poorly execute and poorly continue with plotting decisions I'm convinced were made at 2am in a Nottingham pub.

Oh, Starky-pooh. Your special brand of mindless hate is depressing even to the fattiest lurker!

Simon_Jester didn't say shit about GW's "reset button." All he did was point out that the Emperor, canonically, built a political structure which survived for over 10,000 years despite incessant attacks from the fucking devil. The IoM, despite dealing with communication and transit lags the likes of which no real, historical empire has ever survived has held together for almost as long as recorded history. Unless you have a problem with the whole concept of suspension of disbelief upon which this site is fucking well founded, you don't have a leg to stand on. Unless everything in Australia really is upside-down, in which case you're totally right. Good job!

[IvanTih]

I remember that there is a info in Andy Hoare that says that Tau hypervelocity rounds stronger than the Imperium's weapons or something like that.
Since it's written by Andy Hoare I assume that is a Tau wank.

-So, when its another sci fi franchise, its wank, but when its star wars, its > instant cool? Your a very puerile and hypocritical bunch. I guess you've all been isolated (and insulated) from reality for so long that your all simply incapable of seeing the inherant contradictions of your remarks.
-Long live SW (no limits fallacys)! We are invincible, primarily because george lucas is a recluse who makes things up as he goes along, and disney’s pinocchio seemed more scientifically credible than any of the films. You can’t beat a make believe contest with a crazy person who will go full retard on you!

I don't who you are,but you seem to know nothing about 40k,Andy Hoare's books contradict vast majority of other sources in some things.

[Sarevok]

So ? Are you saying the rest of 40K is consistent ? This is the same universe where in some sources starships can barely accelerate beyond one gee and are weapons are manually operated by muscle power from slaves. At same time you can also pull obscure fluff "proving" 0.75 C combat speeds and multi AU ranges.

[Imperial Overlord]

So ? Are you saying the rest of 40K is consistent ? This is the same universe where in some sources starships can barely accelerate beyond one gee and are weapons are manually operated by muscle power from slaves. At same time you can also pull obscure fluff "proving" 0.75 C combat speeds and multi AU ranges.

The only source that has speeds around one gee is Andy Hoare. The rest of the background material is consistently at much higher ranges, with some variation which is consistent in a universe where some ships are built with better technology than others. What do you do in a sci-fi universe when one source is consistently out of sync with the rest? You toss it out. That works for Star Wars with Traviss and it works for 40K with Hoare.

[Darth Hoth]

So ? Are you saying the rest of 40K is consistent ? This is the same universe where in some sources starships can barely accelerate beyond one gee and are weapons are manually operated by muscle power from slaves. At same time you can also pull obscure fluff "proving" 0.75 C combat speeds and multi AU ranges.

The only source that has speeds around one gee is Andy Hoare. The rest of the background material is consistently at much higher ranges, with some variation which is consistent in a universe where some ships are built with better technology than others. What do you do in a sci-fi universe when one source is consistently out of sync with the rest? You toss it out. That works for Star Wars with Traviss and it works for 40K with Hoare.

"Some variation"? The difference between multi-AU combat ranges and the more commonly encountered ones of thousands or tens of thousands of kilometres (cf e.g., Execution Hour) is many orders of magnitude greater than the one between the same and Andy Hoare's tens or hundreds of them. On top of that, it is also silly, since it would more or less require FTL weapons and sensors to work. I cannot but utterly fail to see how one can think the latter is inconsistent without saying the same for the former.

Not that there has been any mention of multi-AU ranges in any Warhammer lore I have read or seen quoted, mind. I would not be surprised if it did turn up in some obscure source, though; maybe one of the Goto books.

And quite honestly, the universe is horrendously inconsistent. Anyone with more than a few books can pull out a range of quotes to support pretty much anything, from weapons yields and ranges higher than the ICS to lower than Star Trek. As Srelex said, personal preference is the judge more than anything else.

[Purple]

Er... is the whole multiple AU ranges + near light accelerations + ramming attacks a staple of Battlefleat Gothic?

Also, there is something to be said about what adam_grif said.
All the factions out there are basically insanely wanked out and could crush everyone else if they could just get their act together.
And than there are the Tau, in full control of their assets fighting with all their might and ability and generally at the peak of their power. And all this gives them is that with a lot of luck and by keeping their head down they are barely staying alive until the next day.

There is something heroic about that. Kind of how they used to talk about the Imperial Guard back in the day.

[Lancer]

"Some variation"? The difference between multi-AU combat ranges and the more commonly encountered ones of thousands or tens of thousands of kilometres (cf e.g., Execution Hour) is many orders of magnitude greater than the one between the same and Andy Hoare's tens or hundreds of them. On top of that, it is also silly, since it would more or less require FTL weapons and sensors to work. I cannot but utterly fail to see how one can think the latter is inconsistent without saying the same for the former.

Not that there has been any mention of multi-AU ranges in any Warhammer lore I have read or seen quoted, mind. I would not be surprised if it did turn up in some obscure source, though; maybe one of the Goto books.

And quite honestly, the universe is horrendously inconsistent. Anyone with more than a few books can pull out a range of quotes to support pretty much anything, from weapons yields and ranges higher than the ICS to lower than Star Trek. As Srelex said, personal preference is the judge more than anything else.

Wait, you just made up multi-AU combat ranges and submitted that as proof of your argument? When did you become employed as a writer by Black Library?

[Darth Hoth]

No, I went with the number Sarevok gave, since no one appeared to contest it, and merely added a note that I, personally, have not seen any evidence of it. People have also talked about it on SpaceBattles, although no sources have been quoted as far as I can tell. (I do not lurk there very regularly.) And it was not proof of the setting's inconsistent nature as such, it was about weapons ranges.