How fast is Tau railgun?

[Simon_Jester]

Also, there is something to be said about what adam_grif said.
All the factions out there are basically insanely wanked out and could crush everyone else if they could just get their act together.
And than there are the Tau, in full control of their assets fighting with all their might and ability and generally at the peak of their power. And all this gives them is that with a lot of luck and by keeping their head down they are barely staying alive until the next day.

There is something heroic about that. Kind of how they used to talk about the Imperial Guard back in the day.

I actually agree with this, except I feel that the Guard still has it: that "opposing the horrors of the universe with a flashlight and a rusty bayonet" aspect.

[NecronLord]

"Some variation"? The difference between multi-AU combat ranges and the more commonly encountered ones of thousands or tens of thousands of kilometres (cf e.g., Execution Hour) is many orders of magnitude greater than the one between the same and Andy Hoare's tens or hundreds of them. On top of that, it is also silly, since it would more or less require FTL weapons and sensors to work. I cannot but utterly fail to see how one can think the latter is inconsistent without saying the same for the former.

You got it, at least one example is in Goto's DoW Ascension, where an Eldar ship belonging to the Dark Reapers aspect comes out of a webgate around what's called an outer planet IIRC, and opens up across the system with its prow guns at an Imperial ship in orbit of another planet. Mind, it's not so infeasible to hit as IIRC they had spotters on the ground and were taking a target by surprise.

[Chaotic Neutral]

The Tau also seem like the only civilization that is poised to move forward.

The Tau are still making technological improvements. Their weapons become stronger, tougher, more reliable, and more accurate with every advancement they make.

[Lancer]

The Tau also seem like the only civilization that is poised to move forward.

The Tau are still making technological improvements. Their weapons become stronger, tougher, more reliable, and more accurate with every advancement they make.

Are you trolling or have you just not scratched past the surface of RAR GRIMDARK! yet?

[Ryan Thunder]

The Tau also seem like the only civilization that is poised to move forward.

The Tau are still making technological improvements. Their weapons become stronger, tougher, more reliable, and more accurate with every advancement they make.

Dude, something like that might make them actually worthy of their own faction book. Didn't you get the memo?

[Simon_Jester]

The Tau also seem like the only civilization that is poised to move forward.
The Tau are still making technological improvements. Their weapons become stronger, tougher, more reliable, and more accurate with every advancement they make.

Are you trolling or have you just not scratched past the surface of RAR GRIMDARK! yet?

The Tau are poised to move forward. That is actually true.

The problem (for them) is that gigantic forces powerful and cruel beyond their ability to comprehend are equally poised to flatten their entire civilization like a mouse being crushed by a steamroller, and with about the same disparity of scale. But say what you will about their totalitarian politics and restrictive caste system, they are still an expanding race that is steadily increasing its capabilities and will continue to do so until they are predictably devoured like a tasty little after-dinner mint by the cosmic horrors around them.

[Srelex]

That is, of course, unless GW sees fit to invoke the (literal) magic of technobabble, or warp storms. Hooray for contrivance! (Well, they can't disband a decade-old model line at this rate, can they?)

[Lancer]

The Tau also seem like the only civilization that is poised to move forward.

The Tau are still making technological improvements. Their weapons become stronger, tougher, more reliable, and more accurate with every advancement they make.

Dude, something like that might make them actually worthy of their own faction book. Didn't you get the memo?

Oh, I'm not disputing that the tau are advancing. It's the claim that they're the only ones making any sort of progress that reeks of trolling, when that's known to be blatantly false.

Otherwise, where did payloads for Hellfire rounds (specifically tailored against the Nids) come from? That's not something that could have been dug up by an Adeptus Mechanicus action-archaeologist chasing archaeotech.

[Chaotic Neutral]

Who else is? The Eldar? They are on the verge of dying anyway. The Imperium is too distracted by attacks form inside and out to move forward technologically. The squats were eaten. And the Kroot and Vespid are part of the Tau. The only others advancing are the Tyranids.

[Ryan Thunder]

Otherwise, where did payloads for Hellfire rounds (specifically tailored against the Nids) come from? That's not something that could have been dug up by an Adeptus Mechanicus action-archaeologist chasing archaeotech.

Well, what I see in the Imperium is new applications of existing technology or inferior stopgap replacements for some older tech that's busted and can't be fixed. "Hey, we have X, why don't we do Y with it?" and "Shit! The Z broke down and we don't have a clue how to fix it! Cobble together something to hold us over, fast!" as opposed to entirely new technologies and applications for them.

For instance, the Tau developed an entirely new weapons system for the Vespid, from scratch. The Imperium hasn't done anything like that, ever. They hack something together from existing tech (like hellfire rounds, which it's worth noting are an Ultramarine-specific thing) or dig up old tech that they don't necessarily understand very well and just read the manual--if it comes with one.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's my understanding of it.

[adam_grif]

Oh, I'm not disputing that the tau are advancing. It's the claim that they're the only ones making any sort of progress that reeks of trolling, when that's known to be blatantly false.

Otherwise, where did payloads for Hellfire rounds (specifically tailored against the Nids) come from? That's not something that could have been dug up by an Adeptus Mechanicus action-archaeologist chasing archaeotech.

Are you sure that's actually technological progress and not just engineering using existing tech?

[Purple]

What I find ironic about the Tau is that the more they progress the more it will come back to bite them.

You see, if they ever reach any meaningful level of technology and expansion that they become some sort of minor power (a few orders of magnitude above what they are now) that will force the others into destroying them.

Getting stronger they will attract more orks and nids, and the IOM will want to kill them so they don't get too big.

They can't win, it's only a matter of time before they are annihilated completely. An utterly depressive and unavoidable fate.
But they keep trying newer the less. (and GW will not advance the ploy by a few centuries just to see the Tau go down).

[Chaotic Neutral]

What I find ironic about the Tau is that the more they progress the more it will come back to bite them.

You see, if they ever reach any meaningful level of technology and expansion that they become some sort of minor power (a few orders of magnitude above what they are now) that will force the others into destroying them.

Getting stronger they will attract more orks and nids, and the IOM will want to kill them so they don't get too big.

They can't win, it's only a matter of time before they are annihilated completely. An utterly depressive and unavoidable fate.
But they keep trying newer the less. (and GW will not advance the ploy by a few centuries just to see the Tau go down).

How? The Ork will fight them whenever they see them regardless, so that can't be a reason. The Tyranids just look for a source of biomass, which will happen regardless, so that can't be a reason, and the Imperium is too tied up fighting everyone else to destroy the Tau. Where are all of these forces going to come from to kill them?

How will increasing technology and remaining about the same size hurt them? Would they start to have massive losses if they say.. became decent at close combat due to more compact weaponry with equal power?

[Talk738kno]

Who else is? The Eldar? They are on the verge of dying anyway. .

That's just a bunch of GRIM DARK flavoring, there's no real evidence that is that the case.

[Lancer]

Otherwise, where did payloads for Hellfire rounds (specifically tailored against the Nids) come from? That's not something that could have been dug up by an Adeptus Mechanicus action-archaeologist chasing archaeotech.

Well, what I see in the Imperium is new applications of existing technology or inferior stopgap replacements for some older tech that's busted and can't be fixed. "Hey, we have X, why don't we do Y with it?" and "Shit! The Z broke down and we don't have a clue how to fix it! Cobble together something to hold us over, fast!" as opposed to entirely new technologies and applications for them.

For instance, the Tau developed an entirely new weapons system for the Vespid, from scratch. The Imperium hasn't done anything like that, ever. They hack something together from existing tech (like hellfire rounds, which it's worth noting are an Ultramarine-specific thing) or dig up old tech that they don't necessarily understand very well and just read the manual--if it comes with one.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's my understanding of it.

Hellfire rounds aren't Ultramarine-specific, nor are they something that had been dug out from a data-archive. The agent used had to be tailored to be effective against strains of Tyranids that the Imperium didn't know existed (as they'd only really experienced genestealers) when any possible precursors to the mutagen were around, and certainly didn't exist during the Dark Age. The Ultramarines are the only big-name chapter to frequently make use of it (because they've formed dedicated Tyranid-hunter units to deal the needs of their sector), but it's also a part of the kit that Deathwatch kill-teams can now equip themselves with.

As for putting together an entirely new weapon system, the Tyrant class cruiser used by the Imperial Navy is a pretty massive example of that. Between M38 and M39, an AdMech Magos was able to recreate (as in independently rediscover, not reverse-engineer from archaeotech) a type of plasma weapon technology that had been lost since the Dark Age, and subsequently incorporated it into a line of ship designs that included the Tyrant.

[Imperial Overlord]

Hellfire is not an Ultramarines specific ammunition. While it isn't common (by galaxy spanning empire standards of "common") its in wide use by the Astartes. Not bad for a new chemical weapon round that manages to be highly lethal to an enemy almost totally immune to biological and chemical weapons.

Of course that isn't the only toy the Imperium have developed since the Heresy. Psyk out weaponry was experimental at the time of the Heresy and is now found in the form of bolter rounds, psycannons, and grenades. Vengeance rounds are another post Heresy development as is Mark VII power armour. While most of the IoM's new technology are refinements and improvements of already existing tech, they can and do develop new and effective technologies to deal with new threats and challenges.

[Ryan Thunder]

Well, without wanting to nitpick, I don't think you could really call anything used by the Astartes "common."

But okay, point taken.

[Simon_Jester]

True.

On the other hand, for each instance of the Imperium adapting new weapons to confront a new threat, we can find other instances of technology being irretrievably (or nearly so) lost: witness the Leman Russ Vanquisher's specialist antitank gun, some of the more advanced types of Space Marine armor (which tend to get handed down and patched up for centuries or millenia for a reason)... it's a mixed bag.

They're still physically capable of inventing new things, but the sheer amount of time that has passed with only incremental changes in weapon technology, and the extensive reliance on weapons first developed several thousand years ago, suggests that the Imperium is at the best, not an advancing power. The kind of powerful expansiveness that drove human culture forward in the Dark Age of Technology, or during the Great Crusade, just isn't there.

So much has been lost that forward progress is rare. What I might call sideways progress is far more common, with one thing being replaced by another that isn't really more sophisticated but is better suited to a specific task it's needed for. Yes, it's an improvement of technology, but incremental and profoundly limited: at some point, they're going to hit the limit of what they can come up with in a given field and that's it.

Whereas the Tau are still moving forward- they have not yet expended their expansive and creative energies as a civilization. Like it or not, that is a major source of their appeal as a faction. They're a young race, one that bears at least a little resemblance to the way we want the future to look, with expansion, colonization, and technological growth. Whereas the Eldar are very much presented as a dying race, and the Imperium are at best a little past their prime.

[adam_grif]

It's not like there's nothing left to invent, either. The IoM used to have tech way better than they have now, and thousands of years after the age of strife they haven't recovered. And we have examples of tech superior to the pinnacle of human tech currently in use; Eldar and Necron stuff, Old Ones tech etc.

The tau are in a great position to avoid the mistakes of the other races by having a negligible connection to the warp and the known history of the imperium at their disposal (many imperial worlds that defected to the Tau Empire, captured planets as well). One thing that I'm curious about though is whether Tau A.I. can be chaos tainted like the Men of Iron were. Did/does imperium A.I. have a warp connection of some kind that allows this, or can ALL sentient things in 40k get it (thus meaning that Tau soldiers can be chaos tainted just like anyone else)?

Also, are Kroot/Vespid etc like the Tau in their lack of psykers? Is that common amongst races outside the main ones, or could their close proximity in space and lack of known psykers be more than just a coincidence?

[Simon_Jester]

Well, the Tau would be in a great position if they weren't so outgunned. The more sophisticated races (the Eldar, the Imperium at its height) existed in a position of strategic vacuum, without powerful forces trying to suppress their growth. The Tau are far more limited in their expansion, and in the amount of time they have to protect themselves from emerging threats like the Tyranids and Necrons.

[Chaotic Neutral]

They are limited in their expansion, but not in development, they can still advance in science, which they will then use to advance in the physical sense.

[adam_grif]

If the Tau can stick around for a few hundred years, then they're probably going to be around for a long time. Even outside of a metagaming perspective (i.e. "the Tau are too commercially successful to die") their continued existence would be marked with continued advances, be them Tau ingenuity or just reverse engineering more advanced toys (I recall from Dark Crusade that the Earth Caste was very excited to get its hands on Eldar tech). Along with their already somewhat rapid expansion into contested imperial and Ork space, I can see them being limited more by the speed of their pseudowarp drives than outside interference.

The issue with theorycrafting their future is that tech progression in 40k seems to get arbitrarily capped a lot. Humanity was still behind the curve as of the Age of Strive, despite super advanced A.I. and shit - didn't have Webway, didn't have super FTL that the 'Crons have or their super metals, etc. The Tau will get exactly as advanced as the authors want them to, at the rate they want them to.

[Stark]

On the flip side to that, progression up to whatever tech cap GW fiat determines is often very fast.

[RecklessPrudence]

We have canonical evidence of Kroot being corrupted (3rd ed Tau Codex has 'bad things' happening if they eat the corpses of even Chaos Cultists, to the point that the Tau burn them, which has led to conflicts with some Kroot, IIRC), and Tau do have a connection to the warp, it's just very faint compared to even normal humans. Hell, we even have at least one Tau who, over the course of several days, became irretrievably corrupted and committed suicide (again, IIRC).

Shas'la Kais, the protagonist of Fire Warrior (both game and book), was corrupted by a Khornate daemon during about three days' hard fighting. He found himself becoming more bloodthirsty and eager for battle, and only realised what was happening when it was almost too late to have any free will left at all. Daemons can possess Tau, it's just not usually worth the effort, as they have to try significantly harder than for the easy prey they usually prefer.

Using that Chaos Marine bolter and ammo wasn't so smart after all, was it, Kais? (not that he should have been able to, but there is at least a little evidence that Tau carapace armour has minor power-assists in it, I think?)

[Talk738kno]

You know that the IOM isn't just sitting ididly while the tau are doing there thing, the Ad mech is working hard on reverse engineering Tau tech as well.
For example they have already made a version of Tau's stealth field generator that is man portable, albeit not as powerful as one on a stealth suit, but it's not like stealth suit's in man portable in any case.

The Inquistion have also made a primitive version man portable Eldar holofields as well.