Trek Fleet counts

[Picard]

Wow, dude your a dumbass

And you don't know or don't want to know what you're talking about.

1) Then why the fuck did the need to blow up the tower on endor for?

That shield was projected from surface, and was not shield of DSII itself.

2) Yes in bulkheads and in cube "infrastructure" (memory aplha)

Intrepid class used tritanium in bulkheads, while hull was duranium - yet, it was describet to be built light. Which means that "normal" ships most probably use tritanium in hull (which is logical, given how superior tritanium is in terms of damage resistance. Plus we have lot of evidence that GCS hull is stronger than Voyager's - if you watch Odyssey ramming scene, you will notice that "bug" that rammed Odyssey suffered warp core breach). Odyssey itself was destroyed by warp core breach - had "bug" hit her in saucer, she would probably have survived.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poB74Lcwv80

4) Proof that starwars uses steel? Proof that Startrek uses Tritanium hulls? (Oh and proof of the density of Tritanium in the first place?)

a) Every collision scene from movies plus look of their ships.
b) Logic. Bulkheads of Intrepid and Galaxy class hulls were composed from tritanium. Hull of Intrepid class was composed from duranium, and Intrepid class is "built to be light". Galaxy class also showed better resistence from weapons than what would follow from hull thickness itself.
c) It is way denser than duranium. Plus Borg scout ship massed 2 500 000 metric tons, while much larger Intrepid class massed 700 000 metric tons. Even if only 20% of Borg vessel was above surface, it would be only 15-20 meters high in total.

[fallendragon]

Wow, dude your a dumbass

And you don't know or don't want to know what you're talking about.

1) Then why the fuck did the need to blow up the tower on endor for?

That shield was projected from surface, and was not shield of DSII itself.

2) Yes in bulkheads and in cube "infrastructure" (memory aplha)

Intrepid class used tritanium in bulkheads, while hull was duranium - yet, it was describet to be built light. Which means that "normal" ships most probably use tritanium in hull (which is logical, given how superior tritanium is in terms of damage resistance. Plus we have lot of evidence that GCS hull is stronger than Voyager's - if you watch Odyssey ramming scene, you will notice that "bug" that rammed Odyssey suffered warp core breach). Odyssey itself was destroyed by warp core breach - had "bug" hit her in saucer, she would probably have survived.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poB74Lcwv80

4) Proof that starwars uses steel? Proof that Startrek uses Tritanium hulls? (Oh and proof of the density of Tritanium in the first place?)

a) Every collision scene from movies plus look of their ships.
b) Logic. Bulkheads of Intrepid and Galaxy class hulls were composed from tritanium. Hull of Intrepid class was composed from duranium, and Intrepid class is "built to be light". Galaxy class also showed better resistence from weapons than what would follow from hull thickness itself.
c) It is way denser than duranium. Plus Borg scout ship massed 2 500 000 metric tons, while much larger Intrepid class massed 700 000 metric tons. Even if only 20% of Borg vessel was above surface, it would be only 15-20 meters high in total.

Wow, you're even dumber then I thought
Your responce to 1 was too stupid to rate ANOTHER repation as to why it is wrong, it was however rather amusing
2 Ummm "The Arsenal of Freedom"
2b) How big was the crater of the scout ship?
2c) So as the Odyssey was vulerable to raming attacks, that makes its hull stronger?

4a) That is just funny
4b) How tough was early TNG enterprise then?
4c) Concidering we don't even know if the scout ship was made of Tritanium in the first place using that as a data point is interesting, and when did they state the mass of the Intrepid class?

[Kythnos]

That shield was projected from surface, and was not shield of DSII itself.

Because if the shield was coming from the DS2 then the rebels would have known that it was at least partially operational and not fell in to the trap prepared for them?

Intrepid class used tritanium in bulkheads, while hull was duranium - yet, it was describet to be built light. Which means that "normal" ships most probably use tritanium in hull (which is logical, given how superior tritanium is in terms of damage resistance.

That is not fact it is a "theory" at best and one contradicted by ST canon.
"A in canon "theory" would be they justed used less "tritanium" in the bulkheads and less duranium in the "armor" of the ship.
I still want to know how you can compare the "superiority" of tritanium to duranium when the show does not give hard facts about either?

a) Every collision scene from movies plus look of their ships.

This has to be the worst line of reasoning ever. By that logic the ST ships where made of plastic because that is what they look like to me, and I am fairly sure that the models used to "shoot" the show where. Oh yeah so are SW ship because that sure does not look like steel to me.

b) Logic. Bulkheads of Intrepid and Galaxy class hulls were composed from tritanium. Hull of Intrepid class was composed from duranium, and Intrepid class is "built to be light".

False Logic as stated in the show directly.

2 Ummm "The Arsenal of Freedom"

After reading his BS that line is just so funny. (nice catch, I noticed it myself)

Galaxy class also showed better resistence from weapons than what would follow from hull thickness itself.

No you have to factor in the "structural integrity field", the Galaxy class might have had a better one or more power to dump into it than the Intrepid class.

c) It is way denser than duranium.

Where to you get the density for Tritanium? Or Duranium for that matter?
The only thing I could find was that it was harder than diamond, and Hardness does not equal density. If it did I am fairly certain lead would be harder than diamond also.
No the only line of reasoning you have put out is that "it must be because you want it so."

Plus Borg scout ship massed 2 500 000 metric tons, while much larger Intrepid class massed 700 000 metric tons. Even if only 20% of Borg vessel was above surface, it would be only 15-20 meters high in total.

How much of that mass was Power systems, fuel and Drive systems? That question is even giving you too much because the Borg cubes where said to use it only for the "keel" of their ships.

[Norade]

Here's an idea, just make anti-phase cloak armor out of the same shit they make floors out of in Trek and suddenly nothing can pass through them. There's no evidence showing that people can pass through these super dense floors, so unless Destructionator XIII or Picretard have anything to say on the matter we'll just have to say the density of a ship's floors will always be enough to stop people using phased cloaking technology.

[fallendragon]

I'll once again point out that nobody has shown a correlation between phase effectiveness and density.

You might ask - why don't they fall through the floor? They were actors, not ghosts. Suspend your disbelief and enjoy the story.

If you must take a canon literalist view, density makes no sense - are carpets less dense than hulls now? There is one difference though: the ship's artificial gravity. The artificial gravity plates might be right at the surface of the floor and it may have the effect. It'd explain why they didn't fall through the floors, why they could ride turbolifts, and why they could walk through walls and be shoved out the hull. The floors and turbolifts have gravity plates. The walls don't.

wow a logical theory that fits all known facts... and it only took us how long?

[hunter5]

I'll once again point out that nobody has shown a correlation between phase effectiveness and density.

You might ask - why don't they fall through the floor? They were actors, not ghosts. Suspend your disbelief and enjoy the story.

If you must take a canon literalist view, density makes no sense - are carpets less dense than hulls now? There is one difference though: the ship's artificial gravity. The artificial gravity plates might be right at the surface of the floor and it may have the effect. It'd explain why they didn't fall through the floors, why they could ride turbolifts, and why they could walk through walls and be shoved out the hull. The floors and turbolifts have gravity plates. The walls don't.

So what you are saying is SW could just use tractor beams to hold a phased ship in place and even potentially tear it apart with multiple tractor beams.

[Kythnos]

So what you are saying is SW could just use tractor beams to hold a phased ship in place and even potentially tear it apart with multiple tractor beams.

I would said you have a decent chance of holding it, but we don't know how effective it will be Gravity seemed to have less of a hold on items out of phase.

Tear it apart I would doubt, the phase-cloak does not seem to effect the "strength" of the materials it is "phasing". So unless the tractor beams could do that to a normal ship I would say no.

[Batman]

Picard claims density has nothing to do with it. Burden of proof is on it.
[...]No it's not, what with there not being any evidence to contradict it. ALL you've shown is there's an an alternative theory. Evidence would be the canon supporting that theory over the one presented by Serafina.

You're never going to get the fucking point are you? There is NO EVIDENCE for even a correlation, much less causality.

There's no evidence to the contrary either. Feel free to show that the phase cloak can do it.

As a matter of fact yes it is. And again there being a difference noticeable to the naked eye is your assumption.

Oh sure, so when there's NOT A SHRED OF EVIDENCE FOR A CORRELATION there's obviously a correlation because of observation bias.
The only thing this horseshit is based upon is there needing to be a rate to pass through something. One datapoint can't show a correlation by definition!

Says the man blithely assuming the phase cloak can phase through everything.

[Batman]

There's no evidence to the contrary either. Feel free to show that the phase cloak can do it.

I already did: they walked through walls and pushed one guy through the outer hull of the ship. They can do it and they did do it, many times.

That shows that-they they can go through walls on and the outer hull of the E-D, nothing more.[/quote]
And AGAIN, there being no evidence for no correlation is the default position.[/quote]
Actually the default position is we have no fucking clue wether there is a corellation or not. However since you and Picard appear to have made it your mission to show there is no corellation, by all means continue.

Says the man blithely assuming the phase cloak can phase through everything.

No, I'm saying density has nothing to do with it, because there's no evidence for that.

There's no evidence against either, and density is one of the most rational explanations.

[Norade]

So Star Wars simply extends the anti-gravity field around them then. We know that a simple 1 G or less gravity will stop you from phasing through so simple extend the internal compensator field out further and use it as an anti-phase cloak shield.

[Stark]

It might not prevent phasing, but there's certainly some interaction. Is anyone shown jumping?

[fallendragon]

There's no evidence to the contrary either. Feel free to show that the phase cloak can do it.

I already did: they walked through walls and pushed one guy through the outer hull of the ship. They can do it and they did do it, many times.

That shows that-they they can go through walls on and the outer hull of the E-D, nothing more.

And AGAIN, there being no evidence for no correlation is the default position.

Actually the default position is we have no fucking clue wether there is a corellation or not. However since you and Picard appear to have made it your mission to show there is no corellation, by all means continue.

Says the man blithely assuming the phase cloak can phase through everything.

No, I'm saying density has nothing to do with it, because there's no evidence for that.

There's no evidence against either, and density is one of the most rational explanations.

So what, are you the wars version of Picard??? As aparantly, to you, a human and the hull of a ship have the same density. And rational explanation for what? and I am with Destructionator XIII, unless there is a clear logical reason that the Death's Star denisity stops the cloak the default assumption has to be that it can get through if it is working correctly (how often an alpha quadrent version will actaully be working properly is, in my mind, much more debatable).

[Norade]

We've already shown that a simple floor stops people from phasing and from that we know that either the floor, or 1G worth of gravity is enough to stop matter from phasing through. We know that Star Wars inertial dampeners can suppress thousands of G's worth of gravity and can extend past the shields of a vessel a considerable distance, sources for this can be found anywhere after the first book in the NJO series. We also know that photons, chemical reactions, gravity, and the power of love can effect people that have been phased and that you need to right frequency to phase through something as simple as a small asteroid, to get through the outer hull of the first DS and get anywhere useful you'd need to fly through hundreds of kilometers of walls as well as artificial gravity and thus you'll come to a halt very quickly even if the DS does nothing to defend itself.

[Picard]

So they just go throught vent.

[Norade]

So they just go throught vent.

First off, try getting the spelling right and including all the words your sentence requires.

Now assuming you mean, "Then they will just go through the vent", you're absolutely fucking wrong. First of all there was no vent large enough for a ship to fit through on the DS1 and on the DS2 there was also no vent, if you mean the open side that was part of a ruse to trick the rebel fleet into thinking it was incomplete by making it look less complete than it really was then you're also wrong. You're continually ignoring the fact that the rebels reached that point in the galaxy using a drive many times faster than the drive speeds in Star Trek and that an incomplete DS2 wouldn't be sent to the enemy until it was made complete. This would include things like a fully enclosed hull and secondary and point defense batteries.

Second, and I hope you take this in the most appropriate way, kindly fuck off with the wall of ignorance style and please don't let the door hit you on the way out you shit sucking piece of mother fucking trash.

[Kythnos]

So Star Wars simply extends the anti-gravity field around them then. We know that a simple 1 G or less gravity will stop you from phasing through so simple extend the internal compensator field out further and use it as an anti-phase cloak shield.

I don't think it is that simple, the Enterprise was able to phase itself free of the asteroid while it was generating artificial gravity. I think the best theory we could put forth so far is "that gravity still has some effect on phased matter".

[Norade]

So Star Wars simply extends the anti-gravity field around them then. We know that a simple 1 G or less gravity will stop you from phasing through so simple extend the internal compensator field out further and use it as an anti-phase cloak shield.

I don't think it is that simple, the Enterprise was able to phase itself free of the asteroid while it was generating artificial gravity. I think the best theory we could put forth so far is "that gravity still has some effect on phased matter".

Then basic floors are what stops you from phasing through, it's either gravity or the deck itself that stops them from falling through. People also seem to interact with gasses, so we can just blow poison gas through the ship's hull and kill them all, or just shine a very high powered laser to blind them.

[Junghalli]

or just shine a very high powered laser to blind them.

I don't think phased matter appears transparent to somebody inside who's phased. For one thing if it did phased people would be blind because their retinas are transparent (see here for a discussion of the same problem in the context of The Invisible Man). Also, while it's been a while since I've seen the episode I'm fairly sure the Enterprise's hull didn't turn completely transparent from the viewpoint of the people inside (could be wrong though, like I said I haven't seen it in a long time).

Of course this suggests an alternate point of vulnerability, as there's apparently still some interaction between phased material and visible light.

[Norade]

or just shine a very high powered laser to blind them.

I don't think phased matter appears transparent to somebody inside who's phased. For one thing if it did phased people would be blind because their retinas are transparent (see here for a discussion of the same problem in the context of The Invisible Man). Also, while it's been a while since I've seen the episode I'm fairly sure the Enterprise's hull didn't turn completely transparent from the viewpoint of the people inside (could be wrong though, like I said I haven't seen it in a long time).

Of course this suggests an alternate point of vulnerability, as there's apparently still some interaction between phased material and visible light.

I was more talking about simply blinding people at point blank range, though at that point super powerful isn't required, something like a scaled up laser pointer will still mess with phased people just fine. Also seeing as they still interact with light you could simply shine lights around and look for the dark spot unless Treknology can somehow interact with something without disturbing it. You could also use the old colored gas trick as they still breath making this cloaking pretty damned laughable.

[fallendragon]

Ummm, how are you geting the laser to go through the hull? And remember it is a cloak, so light goes through it with out being effected by it, but yes the vunerability to gas attacks is kind of funny.

[Norade]

They can see the light and they can see each other therefor while phased so obviously light is still reflected. You could argue that it doesn't escape in which case you could simply fill the cloaking bubble with light and blind, cook everything with energy. The same would also be true if this energy was absorbed. Also, as we know that phased matter does still interact both light and with at least certain types of matter so detecting a cloaked person would be easy. A cloaked ship would be detectable whenever it crossed engine wash or blocked out light. Any claims that they bend all light around them must be false or nothing would be able to see anything that wasn't also phased.

[fallendragon]

I'm still confused how your beaming light through a cloaked hull...

[Norade]

You beam light at the ship and since light doesn't leave the area as evidenced by the fact that people can still see it must stay, so any light sent in will stay and slowly cook the ship from the hull in.

[Picard]

So they just go throught vent.

First off, try getting the spelling right and including all the words your sentence requires.

Now assuming you mean, "Then they will just go through the vent", you're absolutely fucking wrong. First of all there was no vent large enough for a ship to fit through on the DS1 and on the DS2 there was also no vent, if you mean the open side that was part of a ruse to trick the rebel fleet into thinking it was incomplete by making it look less complete than it really was then you're also wrong. You're continually ignoring the fact that the rebels reached that point in the galaxy using a drive many times faster than the drive speeds in Star Trek and that an incomplete DS2 wouldn't be sent to the enemy until it was made complete. This would include things like a fully enclosed hull and secondary and point defense batteries.

Second, and I hope you take this in the most appropriate way, kindly fuck off with the wall of ignorance style and please don't let the door hit you on the way out you shit sucking piece of mother fucking trash.

Interphase cloak is small enough to fit on runabout. For DS1, they would not need vent at all. For DS2, it is similar design, so it also must have vent, which seemed to be far larger than that of DS1, althought if I'm not wrong, it would be blocked somehow. But it probably would not be sufficient to stop runabout equipped with interphase cloak.

[fallendragon]

Then why didn't Ro or Gordie complain about feeling hot?