SGU S02E07 The Greater Good (SPOILERS)

[Adrian McNair]

Episode seven of Universe's second season is here. These are my thoughts.

- This was my initial reaction to the ending of the episode.

Well, not quite. But I was fuming internally. Fuck you, Simeon. Fuck. You. Chloe can get fucked as well, just for existing while Perry and Ginn aren't (You can be as supportive to Eli as much as you want but I still don't like you). How the fuck did he manage to get loose? Is their security that lax? Greer should have put a bullet in the head of that murderous piece of shit when they were having their little staring contest in the corridor. Well, there's always next week. Or some time in the future.
- We barely got the chance to know Ginn and now both she and Perry are gone, just so we can get some cheap drama out of it (along with some more angst for Eli and Rush). Cheap is precisely the word I'd use to describe this pair of deaths. It was the exact opposite of Riley's demise, which was moving. This is just infuriating, all the more because it happened off-screen (we didn't even get to see any scenes of Ginn on Earth).
- So Rush's machinations have been unraveled now and he seems to have reached a sort of truce with Young. Assuming that what he said about Destiny's mission was true, we have an answer now. The Ancients
launched Destiny in the hope of better understanding the structure of the universe. I'm not sure what to make of this as of yet, but it is intriguing. It's not what I expected. This is also the angriest Eli's ever been.
- So that alien vessel presumably belonged to the Greys (from Awakening) and it may have been in a battle. Could the Greys be at war with the Blues? That would explain why both parties have an interest in Ancient technologies. Each side wants to get an advantage over the other. Maybe the Greys will become the allies of the Destiny crew (with Telford acting as a liaison of sorts). It could happen, given that the most hostile thing that the Greys have ever done was to stun people.
- I've been of the opinion that Rush's actions have been motivated by a desire for control and this episode reinforced that. It's why he placed everyone in this situation in the first place. Back in the Milky Way he was always going to be overshadowed by the likes of Carter and McKay but on Destiny he has a major stake in matters.

I'm in two minds about my score for the episode. On the one hand, I'm pretty pissed off about the ending but there was quite a bit of substance to this (there was some movement on the plot and the pacing was good).

Three out of five from me this week

[Slacker]

I have to disagree a bit-aside from the ending, which infuriates me to no end, this was an absolutely fantastic episode. I feel like maybe the big reveal about Destiny's mission was a bit too off-the-cuff, but it's fascinating. Of course there's the question now sitting there of 'who created the universe', which of course now means the name makes sense. Do enjoy the little bits of science they drop in here and there.

[Adrian McNair]

I have to disagree a bit-aside from the ending, which infuriates me to no end, this was an absolutely fantastic episode. I feel like maybe the big reveal about Destiny's mission was a bit too off-the-cuff, but it's fascinating. Of course there's the question now sitting there of 'who created the universe', which of course now means the name makes sense. Do enjoy the little bits of science they drop in here and there.

I would have given it a four but the ending is just too much of a sticking point for me. They didn't develop Ginn enough for this death to be a meaningful one. Her relationship with Eli probably would have been one of the brighter points of the series (as evidenced by that scene in the intro), but now that's been ripped away from us. Consequently we're going to get more angst in a show that's already brimming with it. Because that's just what we need.

[CaptainChewbacca]

I object to the poll questions, because there needs to be something between 'Decent' and 'Best episode of any show ever'.

It was really cool to see the science guys on the bridge, though.

[Adrian McNair]

I object to the poll questions, because there needs to be something between 'Decent' and 'Best episode of any show ever'.

I'm open to suggestions, but I don't see the issue with the current system. Four stars would be synonymous with "A decent effort" and five is essentially a perfect score. Would changing the label for the fifth option be sufficient?

[adam_grif]

I'm sure Simeon was just there to smoke a few cones and chill. I don't know why this is upsetting all of you people.

- So that alien vessel presumably belonged to the Greys (from Awakening) and it may have been in a battle. Could the Greys be at war with the Blues? That would explain why both parties have an interest in Ancient technologies. Each side wants to get an advantage over the other. Maybe the Greys will become the allies of the Destiny crew (with Telford acting as a liaison of sorts). It could happen, given that the most hostile thing that the Greys have ever done was to stun people.

What?

They're in different galaxies. The blue aliens can't get to the other one as far as we can tell.

I object to the poll questions, because there needs to be something between 'Decent' and 'Best episode of any show ever'.

What ever happened to Necron Lord's polls?

[Sarevok]

Semi spoilerific post. Follow at your risk




Ginn cant live because happiness and emotional fulfillment is so anti grim dark. That is the message of SG:U - no matter how hard you try some random shit is going to waste all your hard earned satisfaction and leave you at square one. No wonder this show does not get more viewers. Its trying to be as uninspirational and un uplifting as possible.

Sorry about the vent but I loved Ginns character and how she for a short time lit up Eli's life for a short time. Seeing someone like her killed off just to make some depressing melodrama is infuriating.

[Adrian McNair]

I'm sure Simeon was just there to smoke a few cones and chill. I don't know why this is upsetting all of you people.

Spoiler

What?

They're in different galaxies. The blue aliens can't get to the other one as far as we can tell.

Do we really know that for certain? We aren't aware of the capabilities of their FTL drives. For all we know the Blues in the previous region of space were merely a scouting expedition and the main force resides in the current galaxy Destiny is traversing.

What ever happened to Necron Lord's polls?

Could it have something to do with the fact that NecronLord hasn't been the one starting these threads anymore? Like I said I'm open to suggestions for re-labelling the poll options. I'll admit that the current labels are placeholder quality at best.

[CaptJodan]

I'm not happy about Ginn dying, especially this soon, while Chloe continues to waste oxygen on Destiny, but not so much that it's going to spoil the rest of the episode. Though to be fair last week's spoiler filled post helped me prepare for this mentally. Still sucks, though.

The extreme negative of Ginn's clear demise is balanced out by giving a bit more clues to the question that has been bothering me since the start, ie why do people like Rush and the LA want this ship. I think the answer so far is still a little too vague, and if I were Young, I'd probably say "screw the meaning of the universe bullshit that may or may not create something practical, assuming we're even close enough to our destination for us to be alive to see it, I want to go home". From what little Rush said, there's really no reason to believe that they will even be alive long enough to find the answer to the puzzle. But it still is a significant enough answer to justify why other groups have such a hard-on for the ship.

It does beg the question of the aliens who created the paradise planet though, and maybe how close they are to the answers Destiny is looking for. They seem fairly powerful. We may find out a bit more about that later.

A few other things I enjoyed about the episode.
-Both Eli and Scott's reaction when they find out about the bridge. Both don't seem to anger too quickly, yet both seemed quite furious when they stepped on the bridge. An enjoyable "WTF" moment for the characters.
-Eli's mention of remembering that their in other people's bodies. I'm still looking for more depth into this, and I feel the show has really missed an opportunity to deal with this properly. There was a hint of it here, but not sure we'll get more.
-Young and Rush's scuffle. I may not have seen it right, but I thought Young pulled away from outright choking Rush to death because he remembered killing Riley in the same manner, and couldn't bring himself to do it a second time. They're really both right. Rush made all the points made here about Young's incompetence with the LA situation, and his general lack of command ability, while Young reinforced that you can really never trust Rush's word for anything. Remember the "for the sake of the crew" agreement anyone?
-I liked Volker's enthusiastic line about meeting a new ship.

I don't think the blues and grays really know each other or are in a war with each other. The message from one of the head characters..I think it was Franklin, was to the effect that one enemy was behind, another lies ahead. So I doubt very much they'll be allies.

So far, this season is doing a better job of staying on plot than last season did, with only a couple of obvious missteps. I don't like Ginn's early death, but it's better than having another episode like Cloverdale.

[Darksider]

Am I the only one that thinks the "structure to the universe" stuff sounds too much like intelligent design bullshit?

I really hope they don't try to emulate nBSG's religious angle. It sucked in that show, and it'll suck in this one too.

[Slacker]

Well, to be fair, it's really not hard to believe some sort of sufficiently advanced critters created the universe in this setting, simply because of all the other shit sufficiently advanced critters have done in the setting already They have to approach it right, of course, but the mythos of the show is better equipped to handle it better than Galactica, I think.

Jinn's ultimate fate is bile-inducing to me as well, but I can't judge an otherwise excellent episode by the last fifteen seconds. It wouldn't be fair.

[JME2]

Am I the only one that thinks the "structure to the universe" stuff sounds too much like intelligent design bullshit?

I really hope they don't try to emulate nBSG's religious angle. It sucked in that show, and it'll suck in this one too.

I'm worried about that, too, especially given the Cain subplot.

At the same time, the idea of a race more advanced than the Ancients or even the Ori has potential.

And, assuming Rush is telling the truth, SGU's title now makes sense and the show has its myth arc in place at last.

So, shall we start taking bets on how long Simeon has to live?

[Darksider]

If they play this off as being some kind of signal or evidence of the oldest race in the universe, the first to achieve sentience, then it could be done well. If they try to pass this off as some sort of benevolent "creator" entity like the shit from "faith," it's going to suck.

One of Stargate's core themes has always been using science and technology to overcome superstition and the need for gods. If it turns out that we've just been advancing technologically so we can scientifically "prove" the existence of a creator (no doubt with distinct Judeo-christian elements to it) it will seriously undermine that theme.

This is why the religious shit in the series in "air" and "faith" bothered me. I just knew they were headed in this direction.

[Zac Naloen]

It could just as easily be a "message" left at the end of whatever came before the big bang.

There's no reason at all to see any religious angle to this, it's just something about understanding the origins of the universe better. Could have massive implications. Could not. Perhaps implying the big bang wasn't natural. None of this though implies supernatural beings unless you choose to see it that way.

[JME2]

One of Stargate's core themes has always been using science and technology to overcome superstition and the need for gods. If it turns out that we've just been advancing technologically so we can scientifically "prove" the existence of a creator (no doubt with distinct Judeo-christian elements to it) it will seriously undermine that theme.

And Brad Wright's been with the TV franchise from the very beginning. You would think he of all people would know better than to go down that route and I'm really hoping they don't.

[CaptJodan]

This is why the religious shit in the series in "air" and "faith" bothered me. I just knew they were headed in this direction.

I felt like they stepped back from "faith" when they dealt with TJ's baby. True, Cain doesn't say "they're aliens, not gods" but, he wasn't exactly sprouting the religious dogma anymore either. They were polytheistic gods if anything, but even then, I don't think Cain was really going on about them in a religious sense in that episode. I guess we'll learn more later.

I, too, cringed at the idea that they were on the verge of going to the creation angle for the universe, and the idea of some sort of god (singular no doubt). They haven't gone there yet, but there's certainly potential for it to. One of BSG's problems is that it answered the question; yes there is a god, and these two head people are his angles. If SGU is smart, the farthest it goes is that it leaves who are what the creators of this puzzle was as a mystery, never answering the question as to whether it was gods or aliens. "Faith" actually did this pretty well in that they didn't answer the question, and even though we saw Cain again, who learned more about the planet's creator (not much). He still didn't decide whether it was aliens or god(s).

Or, it could do the much smarter thing and just say it's aliens.

[Zac Naloen]

On current evidence it seems much more likely the ship inserted that dream into TJ's head and we really don't know anymore about the Faith Aliens.

[Revy]

Not sure if it's considered canon or not, but the Ascended Times newspaper from the SG1 episode Threads mentioned that they had discovered the edge of the universe (it gave a really really big number for the distance), along with a jokey mention about someone setting up a coffee shop or something so customers can stare off into the nothingness past the edge.

Also, didn't Orlin hint at some kind of existence past ascension? At least I think he said something about how directly fighting the Ori wouldn't be the best way to further their enlightenment.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Well, not quite. But I was fuming internally. Fuck you, Simeon. Fuck. You. Chloe can get fucked as well, just for existing while Perry and Ginn aren't (You can be as supportive to Eli as much as you want but I still don't like you). How the fuck did he manage to get loose? Is their security that lax? Greer should have put a bullet in the head of that murderous piece of shit when they were having their little staring contest in the corridor. Well, there's always next week. Or some time in the future.

- We barely got the chance to know Ginn and now both she and Perry are gone, just so we can get some cheap drama out of it (along with some more angst for Eli and Rush). Cheap is precisely the word I'd use to describe this pair of deaths. It was the exact opposite of Riley's demise, which was moving. This is just infuriating, all the more because it happened off-screen (we didn't even get to see any scenes of Ginn on Earth).

I agree. Ginn dying isn't what bothers me. It's how obvious it was that something bad was going to happen and that made this otherwise good episode a near failure for me.

When Simeon confronted Perry/Ginn and Greer broke it up that was an infruiated scene for me for several reasons. The first; the escorting soldier. They should put that retard to work cleaning because he obviously has no business escorting a guy like Simeon. He just stood there until Greer came around. Though that does happen sometimes...not everyone who joins is actually cut out for it. (though you'd think they'd be sure when assigning someone to a top top secret project, but I disgress). However, even Greer didn't salvage the situation he just breaks them up. Simeon should have been thrown in a cell and treated like Edmond Dantes (well, except for the torture...maybe ) Let's face it. Simeon has been an obvious problem waiting to happen since the Lucian personnel were captured. They were far to lenient than what I would consider to be realistic.

Oh, and the clue on Destinys purpose was a weak point as well. I got NBSG vibes from it. I think it's still too early to tell if they are going to head that way, but it makes me concerned.

[CaptJodan]

When Simeon confronted Perry/Ginn and Greer broke it up that was an infruiated scene for me for several reasons. The first; the escorting soldier. They should put that retard to work cleaning because he obviously has no business escorting a guy like Simeon. He just stood there until Greer came around. Though that does happen sometimes...not everyone who joins is actually cut out for it. (though you'd think they'd be sure when assigning someone to a top top secret project, but I disgress). However, even Greer didn't salvage the situation he just breaks them up. Simeon should have been thrown in a cell and treated like Edmond Dantes (well, except for the torture...maybe ) Let's face it. Simeon has been an obvious problem waiting to happen since the Lucian personnel were captured. They were far to lenient than what I would consider to be realistic.

Greer seemed to be the only one who could keep the man from doing the stupid shit he did, so on the one hand I would say they should have long ago had Greer be his escort, rather than escorting...um...well Ginn for a while, but it didn't look that way this episode. On the other hand, Greer has been looking for any excuse to bust his ass, so that might not have helped.

The guard who was watching out for him obviously didn't react because this was a main character's job, unfortunately, and so was written badly. He was just "there". Realistically, he probably would have stepped in before Greer even got there rather than standing there like a douche.

On current evidence it seems much more likely the ship inserted that dream into TJ's head and we really don't know anymore about the Faith Aliens.

I'm not convinced of this yet. There was no sign of heavy processing from the computer that was involved when Young was getting his dreams. I think I'd like the ship explanation more, as I can't see what is in it for the aliens, but I can see what is in it for the ship, but I don't think it's conclusive. Maybe we'll get a better answer to that later.

[CaptainChewbacca]

I'm open to suggestions, but I don't see the issue with the current system. Four stars would be synonymous with "A decent effort" and five is essentially a perfect score. Would changing the label for the fifth option be sufficient?

Yes, I'd support changing it to 'One of the best SGU episodes yet' or 'A great hour of TV'. The problem with jumping from 'Decent' to 'best ever' is you take 'great' off the table.

[JME2]

I'm really going to be curious to see how Varro reacts next week. The Lucian commander warned Simeon to stay in line and not do anything violent or stupid for fear it would jeopardize the safety of the Lucian survivors. To play devil's advocate though, Simeon probably didn't realize Perry was still in Ginn's body. But it doesn't matter; in the space of a few seconds, Simeon's destroyed all of Varro's efforts.

[Joe Momma]

It could just as easily be a "message" left at the end of whatever came before the big bang.

Has anyone else here read Stanislaw Lem's His Master's Voice? Zac's idea correlates with one of the theories regarding the alien message the group in that novel attempts to translate, though there ended up being even larger implications. It would fit the scope of Destiny's mission without descending into intelligent design bullshit. The comparison popped into my head as soon as Rush described his discovery.

[Kamakazie Sith]

I'm really going to be curious to see how Varro reacts next week. The Lucian commander warned Simeon to stay in line and not do anything violent or stupid for fear it would jeopardize the safety of the Lucian survivors. To play devil's advocate though, Simeon probably didn't realize Perry was still in Ginn's body. But it doesn't matter; in the space of a few seconds, Simeon's destroyed all of Varro's efforts.

From a story writing perspective I'd hate to say it but you're probably right. However, anyone with half a brain could see that Simeon is a loose cannon and should have been thrown overboard a long time ago. Holding the rest of the Lucian survivors accountable would be stupid and would hurt the integrity of this series.

[JME2]

Holding the rest of the Lucian survivors accountable would be stupid and would hurt the integrity of this series.

It depends on whether any of them make it out of next week alive. We saw in "Pathogen" that Simeon wasn't happy that Varro and the others had passed on intel on the Lucian Alliance to the SGC and that he's a die-hard supporter of the Alliance. I can easily see him trying to kill Varro and the other 'traitors' before jumping ship.