Human zombies vs Sapient animals

[TithonusSyndrome]

Alright, so here's a fair fight from the original zombie hater:

Tomorrow ROB makes every last human being alive into a stupid shambling groaning zombie. They need to eat to live, and while brains are their favorite, they will when hunger compels them eat anything a feral, omnivorous digestive system can process, including other zombies and some common flora. Otherwise, they will starve and die the same as a living human. They are intent on infecting and/or eating other humans at all times, with other species rating lesser priority from them, so while this scenario sees them fighting only sapient animals they may ignore them briefly at first because of this preference for human brains.

As per the scenario's title, ROB also makes every vertebrate on earth sapient, with a common understanding of written and spoken English and some basic knowledge of a few vital facts, like the fact that they must avoid zombification at all costs, that mutual animal cooperation across all species lines is essential to some significant extent, and that abandoned human weaponry and infrastructure is valuable even if they don't know how to best utilize it at the present moment. Carnivores may consume human zombie corpses after approximately one day's wait to allow the infection to die out and fear no chance of infection. Some thicker-skinned animals have effectively no fear of infection via direct zombie attack, but overwhelming force and ingested zombie virus will still be worth watching for.

Animal intelligence as a whole will be distributed exactly as human intelligence is now, but each individual species' contribution to the distribution will be proportional to their relative intelligence to one another at the present moment; for instance, most amphibians will be incredibly simple on average with an outlier amphibian being of perhaps average intelligence, and elephants and apes will be more likely to contribute to the higher end of the intelligence distribution. Consequently, most of the leadership positions are likely to be occupied by these species.

So there's your scenario. I foresee a lot of human zombies starving initially before a years-long, grueling conflict that eventually concludes with the formation of a pan-continental animal state being federated. Your take?

[Mr Bean]

Zombies turn on and devour themselves because in this scenario zombies can and will eat other zombies. Zombies win by losing because the most common initial food source in average Zombie area is other zombies. Why worry about eating Gorilla brains when New York has 10 million brains worth eating in a thirty mile easy walking distance area. In short the wildlife population is safe (Or at least safe from zombie/humans) as six billion new zombies turn on each other and devour each other.


Also are bites any more fatal than usual to wildlife? IE if a zombie tries to bite a brown bear and Mr Bear rips the zombie apart with its claws does it need to worry about becoming a zombie bear or dieing from eating zombie flesh?

[TithonusSyndrome]

Zombies turn on and devour themselves because in this scenario zombies can and will eat other zombies.

Why don't they do that in every other scenario? Another zombie is less threatening than even a fatty with a replica Master Sword. Presumably something keeps them from eating their own kind, and the only exception in this scenario is that they will eat expired, dead zombies.

Also are bites any more fatal than usual to wildlife? IE if a zombie tries to bite a brown bear and Mr Bear rips the zombie apart with its claws does it need to worry about becoming a zombie bear or dieing from eating zombie flesh?

Zombie bodily fluid in the bloodstream or ingested will infect any animal, just as it will infect any human in every other scenario. Carnivores that wait approximately one day to eat a dead zombie will have no fear of infection.

[Vendetta]

Zombies lose. Once they've run out of domesticated animals all they've got to try their luck with are animals that are really rather good at not being caught by things that are as fast and smart as them, which shambling rotbags are not, and are generally already wary of humans to begin with.

This happens with or without animal sapience, that's irrelevant to the proceedings.

[TithonusSyndrome]

Zombies lose. Once they've run out of domesticated animals all they've got to try their luck with are animals that are really rather good at not being caught by things that are as fast and smart as them, which shambling rotbags are not, and are generally already wary of humans to begin with.

This happens with or without animal sapience, that's irrelevant to the proceedings.

A zombie win in this scenario would be defined as no non-zombified sapient animals left on earth, and zombies not sufficiently destroying the ecosystem to the point where those fast animals can't survive. Zombies chomping up all the flora in an environment would make life unlivable for your rabbits and squirrels.

[Mr Bean]

Zombies turn on and devour themselves because in this scenario zombies can and will eat other zombies.

Why don't they do that in every other scenario? Another zombie is less threatening than even a fatty with a replica Master Sword. Presumably something keeps them from eating their own kind, and the only exception in this scenario is that they will eat expired, dead zombies.

Your OP said

They need to eat to live, and while brains are their favorite, they will when hunger compels them eat anything a feral, omnivorous digestive system can process, including other zombies and some common flora.

As in they will eat other Zombies, even if you redact that by saying zombies only eat other dead zombies that just begs the question of why then the zombies simply don't make more dead zombies the old fashion way.

As for the reason why other scenario... do I have to explain why Magic Zombies, Voodoo Zombies, Super Rabies Zombies and of course Magic Virus Zombies all have different kinds of abilities, behaviors and actions? It's your RAR write it how you want but be aware at the moment it goes nowhere since ROB forgot to make the zombies automatic allies, something of which is common to most zombie types and without which zombies quickly kill each other as a food source.

[Vendetta]

Zombies lose. Once they've run out of domesticated animals all they've got to try their luck with are animals that are really rather good at not being caught by things that are as fast and smart as them, which shambling rotbags are not, and are generally already wary of humans to begin with.

This happens with or without animal sapience, that's irrelevant to the proceedings.

A zombie win in this scenario would be defined as no non-zombified sapient animals left on earth, and zombies not sufficiently destroying the ecosystem to the point where those fast animals can't survive. Zombies chomping up all the flora in an environment would make life unlivable for your rabbits and squirrels.

If they try to compete with squirrels and rabbits for unprepared foods they're pretty much screwed. Humans might be able to outcompete rabbits and squirrels and mountain lions and bears and foxes and wolves and pretty much any animal we set our minds to dicking over, but Zombies don't have those minds and they don't have the other evolutionary adaptations that animals use to get their daily crust either. Zombies aren't going to be able to discriminate which bits of a bush are worth eating, aren't going to climb trees for nuts or fruit, aren't going to run after rabbits, fish, etc. Zombies are not going to cause ecological catastrophe because they're going to stop working too quickly.

[TithonusSyndrome]

As in they will eat other Zombies, even if you redact that by saying zombies only eat other dead zombies that just begs the question of why then the zombies simply don't make more dead zombies the old fashion way.

Assuming you're referring to breeding, it's because pregnant zombies would become hormonal and hungrier than normal. Not much of a coping mechanism.

As for the reason why other scenario... do I have to explain why Magic Zombies, Voodoo Zombies, Super Rabies Zombies and of course Magic Virus Zombies all have different kinds of abilities, behaviors and actions? It's your RAR write it how you want but be aware at the moment it goes nowhere since ROB forgot to make the zombies automatic allies, something of which is common to most zombie types and without which zombies quickly kill each other as a food source.

I've never heard of an incarnation of zombies that didn't cooperate, and saw no reason to stipulate what has always been assumed as a default zombie feature.

If they try to compete with squirrels and rabbits for unprepared foods they're pretty much screwed.

Squirrels and rabbits can't stop zombies from eating up all the grass in a field or leaves off a tree when hunger drives them to it. What ecosystem did you have in mind that can survive six billion zombies stripping bark off trees?

[Vendetta]

Squirrels and rabbits can't stop zombies from eating up all the grass in a field or leaves off a tree when hunger drives them to it. What ecosystem did you have in mind that can survive six billion zombies stripping bark off trees?

No, but the zombies will get nothing from doing this unless the process of zombification suddenly grants them three extra stomachs. Which means that they will break down and stop working within a few weeks at best. Hell, most of them will do so before they so much as see a field as they live in cities and are brainless shamblers which have no chance of navigating a one way system.

If there was an apocalypse of zombie sheep then this might be a problem (sorry, New Zealand), but you have given us no reason to believe that zombie humans are sudden ruminants.

[TithonusSyndrome]

Squirrels and rabbits can't stop zombies from eating up all the grass in a field or leaves off a tree when hunger drives them to it. What ecosystem did you have in mind that can survive six billion zombies stripping bark off trees?

No, but the zombies will get nothing from doing this unless the process of zombification suddenly grants them three extra stomachs. Which means that they will break down and stop working within a few weeks at best. Hell, most of them will do so before they so much as see a field as they live in cities and are brainless shamblers which have no chance of navigating a one way system.

If there was an apocalypse of zombie sheep then this might be a problem (sorry, New Zealand), but you have given us no reason to believe that zombie humans are sudden ruminants.

Nobody who has ever written any zombie literature before has given us any reason why they should be able to consume and digest raw uncooked organs, either, aside from simply showing it and expecting it to go over unquestioned. If a zombie has expanded digestive powers with respect to flesh, I don't see why they shouldn't get hardier at digesting vegetation, either.

[Jawawithagun]

Animals can't work human tools without thumbs so that won't be any help to them.

And in the end it will come down to a World War of rats vs. zombie rats long after the last human zombie has been eaten.

And then there's still the invertebrates. Will they have to deal with zombie maggots?

[TithonusSyndrome]

Animals can't work human tools without thumbs so that won't be any help to them.

Apes aren't animals?

[Junghalli]

Nobody who has ever written any zombie literature before has given us any reason why they should be able to consume and digest raw uncooked organs, either, aside from simply showing it and expecting it to go over unquestioned. If a zombie has expanded digestive powers with respect to flesh, I don't see why they shouldn't get hardier at digesting vegetation, either.

I think the reason humans generally don't consume raw meat is mostly a combination of fear of infection and cultural factors, not that we physically can't digest it at all. People do eat sashimi and steak tartare without ill effects, after all. This is a bit different from digesting bark, where IIRC we simply don't have the ability to break down the cellulose into anything useful. Of course, given how scientifically ridiculous your average zombie is I don't think being able to digest cellulose would be that ludicrous.

Could be wrong, I haven't really studied the issue.

[Zor]

This is going to end with the world dominated by Norway Rats. Smart, fast breeding, some degree of dexterity and group oriented.

Zor

[Jawawithagun]

Animals can't work human tools without thumbs so that won't be any help to them.

Apes aren't animals?

Okay, you got me there. Only a tiny minority of animals will be able to use human tools, thus paving their way to overlordship over all other animals.

I think the reason humans generally don't consume raw meat is mostly a combination of fear of infection and cultural factors, not that we physically can't digest it at all.

Not just that. It makes it easier to digest - which is why people started doing it in the first place.

[TithonusSyndrome]

Animals can't work human tools without thumbs so that won't be any help to them.

Apes aren't animals?

Okay, you got me there. Only a tiny minority of animals will be able to use human tools, thus paving their way to overlordship over all other animals.

Yeah, that's what was going to happen anyways, since the tool-using animals are the smartest anyways, as per the OP.

[Purple]

The problems with that is that zombies by definition have the intelligence of an average retarded 2 year old at worst and a really stupid animal at best. And you have not specified the opposite in the OP.

As such, the zombies are not going to be anywhere near coordinated to destroy all of nature. If they were, they could just set a bunch of forest fires or something. But if they are the stupid retarded zombies we all know they will end up insanely useless at even staying alive.

The first thing that will happen is that they will instantly turn on each other and anything in the area (domestic animals) to devour until the population density has declined massively. Than, they will turn into a sort of caveman scavengers seeking out something or someone to eat until their rotting flesh gives way to nature and physics and decomposition takes it's tole.

In about a month or so at best all zombies will have simply self destructed from these factors.


Hence, the only question that remains is what happens in the world once there are no more humans.

[TithonusSyndrome]

The problems with that is that zombies by definition have the intelligence of an average retarded 2 year old at worst and a really stupid animal at best. And you have not specified the opposite in the OP.

I specified that when hungry enough, they will eat all but the most nutrient-deprived vegetation. Not all people live in the very middle of urban centers, and many people on the periphery are well positioned for grasslands around them to provide them with nutrition.

As such, the zombies are not going to be anywhere near coordinated to destroy all of nature. If they were, they could just set a bunch of forest fires or something. But if they are the stupid retarded zombies we all know they will end up insanely useless at even staying alive.

Since when does something need to be coordinated to destroy an ecosystem? They just need to swarm it in sufficient numbers. The locusts have no king...

The first thing that will happen is that they will instantly turn on each other and anything in the area (domestic animals) to devour until the population density has declined massively.

Again, there's nothing in the OP that inclines them towards living zombiphage any more than in any other franchise.

[The Yosemite Bear]

by some quirk of evolution, Rats are immune to zombie mess, as are cockroaches, as they have already adapted to worse.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

Nobody who has ever written any zombie literature before has given us any reason why they should be able to consume and digest raw uncooked organs, either, aside from simply showing it and expecting it to go over unquestioned. If a zombie has expanded digestive powers with respect to flesh, I don't see why they shouldn't get hardier at digesting vegetation, either.

Actually they have, often. Seriously, how much zombie media have you ever watched/read? A vast majority of the time no digestion takes place at all, they just swallow whatever they're eating and it sits and rots in their stomach, or falls out the holes where their digestive system used to be. Zombies that have actual metabolism are a distinct minority in the zombie-genre. With your OP, you've limited the zombie to being able to eat what a human can, maybe a little more. They might be able to subsist off of slightly more rotten meat than the average human, but as far as I can tell they don't magically gain the three extra stomachs necessary to effectively digest grass and bark.

Again, there's nothing in the OP that inclines them towards living zombiphage any more than in any other franchise.

Again:

They need to eat to live, and while brains are their favorite, they will when hunger compels them eat anything a feral, omnivorous digestive system can process, including other zombies and some common flora.

Let's take a look at these other franchises, shall we:

Max Brooks: Explicitly states in The Zombie Survival Guide that zombies have no interest in each other or things that have been dead for more than an hour or two at most.

Dawn of the Dead: Zombies show no interest in eating each other or their corpses despite several weeks packed outside a mall with no other reachable food source.

28 Days Later: Zombies show no interest in each other and starve to death within weeks.

Night of the Living Dead: No evidence shown that zombies have interest in each other. They will eat dead bodies, but leave reanimated ones alone. The only corpses they're seen to eat are those that have been burned beyond posthumous functionality.

The vast majority of the zombie genre actually has zombies not having any interest in eating each other, it's your scenario that introduces this. Unless you change that parameter, they will all turn on each other because they are the most numerous, most densely packed, easiest to digest and slowest moving prey available. I have to ask again: Exactly how much zombie media have you been exposed to? Because your posts seem to betray a lot of ignorance of some of its common running themes.

As far as how the scenario goes? The dolphins, rats, and insects win, easily.

[The Yosemite Bear]

yes, the Rats will remain on the top of the food chain, because they are smart, and can eat anything thanks to thier evil wonderful evolution.

[TithonusSyndrome]

Nobody who has ever written any zombie literature before has given us any reason why they should be able to consume and digest raw uncooked organs, either, aside from simply showing it and expecting it to go over unquestioned. If a zombie has expanded digestive powers with respect to flesh, I don't see why they shouldn't get hardier at digesting vegetation, either.

Actually they have, often. Seriously, how much zombie media have you ever watched/read? A vast majority of the time no digestion takes place at all, they just swallow whatever they're eating and it sits and rots in their stomach, or falls out the holes where their digestive system used to be.

I have never even heard of such a thing, and I would have never expected it. How is such a monster expected to be halfway believable to a reader/viewer? It doesn't die spare some peculiar, decisive wound, and it doesn't even metabolize any of it's hard-sought nutrition?

Zombies that have actual metabolism are a distinct minority in the zombie-genre. With your OP, you've limited the zombie to being able to eat what a human can, maybe a little more. They might be able to subsist off of slightly more rotten meat than the average human, but as far as I can tell they don't magically gain the three extra stomachs necessary to effectively digest grass and bark.

And as far as anyone can tell they shouldn't be able to subsist off uncooked organs and flesh either, unless zombification hardened their digestive system or they're of the variety that bugger verisimilitude entirely by not metabolizing any nourishment. I guess I could simply alter the OP to do that, if it would simplify things.

Again, there's nothing in the OP that inclines them towards living zombiphage any more than in any other franchise.

Again:

They need to eat to live, and while brains are their favorite, they will when hunger compels them eat anything a feral, omnivorous digestive system can process, including other zombies and some common flora.

Is this really that serious of a sticking point that nobody assumed that zombies would be otherwise cooperative, a default characteristic in what I'm sure is common to every zombie incarnation ever, unless I explicitly stated so?

Alright, for the record, here is the necessary clarification; the zombies in this scenario will never turn on one another and will only eat the flesh of another zombie in the event that it is already dead.

Let's take a look at these other franchises, shall we:

<snip>

The vast majority of the zombie genre actually has zombies not having any interest in eating each other, it's your scenario that introduces this.

Sure, I don't care. I'm not fixed on this parameter and I thought it was clear, so now that we've established that this isn't the case, can we move on now? Puh-lease?

Unless you change that parameter, they will all turn on each other because they are the most numerous, most densely packed, easiest to digest and slowest moving prey available.

Barring the default assumption that they will cooperate because they are always going to be all of the above (save unpalatable to one another for reasons strictly of plot) in any zombie franchise with armed humans, yes.

I have to ask again: Exactly how much zombie media have you been exposed to? Because your posts seem to betray a lot of ignorance of some of its common running themes.

Little to none. Shame on me and my zombie ignorance!

As far as how the scenario goes? The dolphins, rats, and insects win, easily.

Invertebrates are exempt from the uplift, and now that I think of it, fish ought to be as well.

[The Yosemite Bear]

dolphins aren't fish, they are very crafty, oversexed mammals

[TithonusSyndrome]

Thank you very much. I was brought to mind of the fact that I didn't want several billion simple-brained animals to be sapient because they would complicate ethical questions about feeding the sapient carnivores with other sapient animals, which is why I excluded invertebrates and which had nothing to do with Oni's mentioning of dolphins.

[The Yosemite Bear]

oh and rats are all purpose apocalypse survivors, very sneaky and good at what they do. They will probably be ignored by the shamblers, while they feast on our uneaten peanut butter (a rat's favorite food)