'The isoton'

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-08-18 02:48pm

Mr Bean:Why dont they use the tech again? put up some examples of them not using it (apart from the ones already mentioned) - at best you will prove that its like SirNitram said that the tech is only useful for shuttles and nothing else.

The entire reason it was created was for ships to enter suns and guess what... it worked but for some unknown reason SF decides it will just forget the technology.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-08-18 02:49pm

I'd prefer not to drop it, so that, you know, you get the point. This is about as likely as Robert Scott Anderson reversing years of Trekkie Dementia and becoming a worthwhile member of the Pro Trek camp again, but alas, it will not happen.

It was used twice, by the E-D. Never seen again, even when useful(Relics). It proved to be less useful against the thing you claim it should be used against, than normal shields(Relics again).

Now, I will continue to drive the point home with the example of Quantum Crystalline armour. It was seen three times(Since you brought the third mention to the surface), which is more often than Metaphasic Shields have been used. It's been used in three different forms(Suncrusher, Shuttle, Temple), which is more flexibility than Metaphasic Shields have been shown to have. And it's actually more effective than the norm(The Suncrusher shrugging off DS blasts), which is more than can be said for the Metaphasic Shields.

By your perverted twist of logic, QC Armour should be widespread. Of course, you deny this, you cry and scream, but you are, inevitably, wrong.

Now, proof any ship other than the E-D has Metaphasic Shields?

(For the record, that's the second time I've directly asked for proof, and the umpteenth time I've asked for it, directly or indirectly. Let's see how many times he ignores it).

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-08-18 02:54pm

I must disagree that he is anyway near Darkstar levels
My number one reason behind this is the fact he acutals response to your posts
Somthing Darkstar does not do
No your looking for the *Broken record analoyg(Not that I agree with you mearly an issue of terminaolgy)

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-08-18 03:02pm

SirNitram wrote:I'd prefer not to drop it, so that, you know, you get the point. This is about as likely as Robert Scott Anderson reversing years of Trekkie Dementia and becoming a worthwhile member of the Pro Trek camp again, but alas, it will not happen.

It was used twice, by the E-D. Never seen again, even when useful(Relics). It proved to be less useful against the thing you claim it should be used against, than normal shields(Relics again).)

No it was used once my the Ent-D twice by the ent-D's shuttles and at least once by Dr Rega.
I have also exlpained about relics and you didnt refute me so my claims stand.

Now, I will continue to drive the point home with the example of Quantum Crystalline armour. It was seen three times(Since you brought the third mention to the surface), which is more often than Metaphasic Shields have been used. It's been used in three different forms(Suncrusher, Shuttle, Temple), which is more flexibility than Metaphasic Shields have been shown to have. And it's actually more effective than the norm(The Suncrusher shrugging off DS blasts), which is more than can be said for the Metaphasic Shields.)

Except with have seen ships without the armor thoughout NJO so it isnt fleet wide unless you know claim that Vong weapons are more powerful than the death star which is disproven by their attacks on planetary shields and even normal shields unless of course the MF can now shrug of mulitlpe DS bursts.
Refute or admit.

I also like your claim that because metaphasic shielding can only do one job it is forgotten - this is a testament to the armours versatility not its widespread use.

By your perverted twist of logic, QC Armour should be widespread. Of course, you deny this, you cry and scream, but you are, inevitably, wrong.

Now because there are reason against it such as cost etc and even the fact that we have seen it isnt on ships of the line (theres evidence against it being widespread).
Please read the above because I have refuted this claim by you many times.

Now, proof any ship other than the E-D has Metaphasic Shields?

We see a fed shuttle using it and Rega has tested it but a suppose he drugged the entire crew of the Ent-D and stagged a massive cover up soi he could test his theory.

(For the record, that's the second time I've directly asked for proof, and the umpteenth time I've asked for it, directly or indirectly. Let's see how many times he ignores it).

Yes and I have also given you that evidence before, I have also cuaght you out on mistakes which you havent admitted, you also havent explained why the Ent-D is magical.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-08-18 03:06pm

Mr Bean: The main problem I am having with this is that I have shown the metaphasic shield in use more than once and there is no reason to think of it as lost tech.

If someone puts a reasonable theory as to why it is lost tech I would admit its a draw or possibly even a loss on my part if their evidence was better.

However I have a theory that doesnt have 100% proof but has enough and also since its the only theopry that fits it seems to me that its the current best theory.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-08-18 03:13pm

There's evidence against Metaphasic Shielding being in use by even the E-D! Relics. And you didn't 'explain it'. You just made up BS and tried to avoid thinking about it.

Broken record, you are.

Alright. So we have two shuttles and the E-D. Well, you ALMOST have as many applications as QC Armour. Almost. Of course there's other factors: But you are ignoring them for Metaphasics, so when I mock you by using your own perversion of logic, of course I'm going to ignore them.

Again, in a situation where you claim Metaphasics would be useful, normal shields FAR outperformed them. Episode is Relics.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-08-18 03:20pm

Prehaps you should watch the episode again the ship had half it systems offline when it got inside the Dyson sphere and thus it was exactly time to start messing about with the shields.

We also have the evidence that the Ent-D was damaged during Descent and that the crew wasnt the top grade, this added to the fact that the metaphasic shields were prototype and it was clear that Geordi hadnt finished creating the program (it had yet to undergo proper testing on a ship the Ent-D's size).

We are told during the entire episode featuring the metaphasic shielding that they out preform shields for this sort of work -b thats the entire point and this is demonstarated when the shuttle goes into a particular nasty star when the Ent-D cant enter a normal one.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-08-18 06:09pm

Maybe you should watch the episodes and read what I'm saying. Here, I'll bold it for your blind and stupid ass.

The E-D, in Relics, despite being damaged and partially offline, had it's main shields absorb nearly thirty times the energy absorbed in Descent Part 2, when they used the special Metaphasic shields.

Maybe now you'll get it, though I doubt it...

Proof The Metaphasic Shield Program Is Widespread: Still zero.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-08-18 06:30pm

I get it however in descent they were workiong with oh hell go read what I said about descent already.

You will also note in that episode that the ent-d didnt even have its shields up until the flares started up thus they were no where near as deep into the sun as they were in descent or the sun in descent was more powerful.

Proof that the ent-e and certain shuttle have magical abilities still zero.

I am begging you please explain your assertion that the above ships have super normal abilities beyond those of normal ships that would some how account for their ability to put out a metaphasic when no other ship can.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-08-18 06:35pm

TheDarkling wrote:I get it however in descent they were workiong with oh hell go read what I said about descent already.

You will also note in that episode that the ent-d didnt even have its shields up until the flares started up thus they were no where near as deep into the sun as they were in descent or the sun in descent was more powerful.

Proof that the ent-e and certain shuttle have magical abilities still zero.

I am begging you please explain your assertion that the above ships have super normal abilities beyond those of normal ships that would some how account for their ability to put out a metaphasic when no other ship can.

Oh, you're so funny when you're stupid.

I'm not saying it's technically impossible for them to project a Metaphasic shield. If you actually read what was posted, you'd understand that. But then, you're stupid.

What I'm saying is, like usual, the Federation has been stupid and lost a weapon that could be very useful for them in the future.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-08-18 06:47pm

Now, proof any ship other than the E-D has Metaphasic Shields?

Hmm so you admit this question had no substance and you knew it was stupid but you were just throwing up smoke whilst pulling the mirrors into place.

So you have admited that any SF ship can use metaphasic shield if they had the program however this program and all data regarding it (which 3 scientist witnessed and in fact one had been trying to perfect it for years) disapeared into the mists of time especially since eveyone in the room hailed such a discovery as cutting edge and revolutionary yet for some reason it was thrown away.

Yet you have no proof over this rather odd claim whatsoever.
Also before you say I have to prove it - I dont we know it exists thats all I am saying you are claiming its been erased from history so you must provide proof to back up this claim.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-08-18 07:39pm

Nice try with the classic TrekTard 'I don't have to prove it, you do!' tactic. Yes, Darkling, if you want to say every ship in Starfleet can access this program, you must supply proof. You've never supplied any proof the rest of starfleet has it. Christ, you're a moron.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-08-18 07:47pm

No you are claiming that SF decided to delete the program because "it was bad magik".

Why does every SF ship have access to this? Im not saying they do but any ship being assign to stella observation would certainly have it sent to them.

That being said SF ships carry around huge databases of irrelevant information and the mission logs of previous starships therefore reference to the metapashic shield will exist and its likely that the metaphasic sheild mods would be passed around SF is the regular tech journals that Geordi mentions he gets.

I am simply stating this tech isnt lost and if the feds want to send a ship into a star they can give them the relevant info and send they into the star.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-08-18 08:00pm

Alright. That's your theory.

Now for the umpteenth time, where is your proof of this assertion?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-08-18 08:11pm

My proof that SF store information? pick any ST episode.

Your proof that SF enjoys book burning and destroying information?

SirNitram theres no shame in backing down you know pointless attempts to discredit a theory with showmanship aren't to be admired.

Your theory runs against everything we know of SF and against multiple canon examples of SF's database and thirst for scientific knowledge you are trying to prove something you know isnt true because you like the idea.

Why would you believe SF would delete this info? could you just answer me that please, Im trying to understand where you are coming from but I just dont get it.

Im off to get some sleep anyway Ill be back tomorrow.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-08-18 10:43pm

When you get back, offer proof they have the Metaphasic program on the rest of their fleet. Offer proof, or concede.

Setesh · Post by **Setesh** » 2002-08-19 01:28am

Aperantly neither of you paid attension to my point. Metaphasic sheilding is utterly worthless in combat. Against broad spectrum radiation they're a good idea but they aren't any more powerful they just don't have a '0' point in the phase so there is no leakage. But having said shields up means you can't fight back since your weapons have to fire through that '0-point' hense why having the freq of your opponent let's you shoot through their shields. So unless the Trek ship is beeing attacked by a LAAT/i's chibi DS turrets Metaphasic sheids are worse. As I stated before, and SirNitram's example showed the point, the Metaphase is generated using energy that would normally be used for shield 'strength' is used to make the secondary phase' effect. In effect unless they divert even more power to the sheild the Metaphasic sheild has less staying power but it doesn't 'leak'

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-08-19 10:14am

I know, Setesh. I even drove the point home that Metaphasics absorbed less energy than the normal ones did in Relics(Though he refuses to admit this, just as he does whenever he attaches himself to a tech/species of the week). But he seems too ignorant to actually try and prove his point.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-08-19 11:56am

That would be strike three Sir Nitram before I called them "mistakes" but thats the third time now you have lied.

I did in fact say I didnt know why they were going to be any better and I did say I wasnt claiming they were uber.

I agree with Setesh's analysis why? because his theory fits the facts not because we can give we information down to the formula.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-08-19 12:37pm

TheDarkling wrote:That would be strike three Sir Nitram before I called them "mistakes" but thats the third time now you have lied.

I did in fact say I didnt know why they were going to be any better and I did say I wasnt claiming they were uber.

I agree with Setesh's analysis why? because his theory fits the facts not because we can give we information down to the formula.

And this is the fourth, fifth, maybe sixth time you've continued to claim moral superiority despite flaunting bullshit.

Now, any proof for any of your claims that it's widespread? No supposition, PROOF. Like someone saying the Multiphasic shield system has been distributed through the fleet, or the Defiant, Voyager, or E-E using them.

But it won't come, because it doesn't exist..

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-08-19 02:13pm

Well if you will continue to engage in dishonest debating and even outright lying what do you expect to say "gee thats ok lie away" ?

I dont claim the Defaint or Voyager has used them but have they been in a situation that needed them?
You claim because we havent seen every Fed ship using them they cant have them and SF must have erased the tech for what reason again? oh yes you have told me a reason have you.

It boils down to this
You: "Show me a ship other than the Ent-D that has used the tech"
Which I did.
You: "Show me other ships using it"
I show you that many other races had interest in the tech and I ask you to tell me what magically property these ships have that others dont.
You dont give me an answer and just keep chanting to yourself that we havent seen every ship using them.
Does this also mean that some SF shuttles dont have transporters? we have seen ones from the Ent-D with them and VOy however we have never seen shuttles from the Yamato using them - therefore the Ent Shuttles and Voy shuttles are magical and no other ships shuttles have transporters because we dont see it.

Your entire conclusion relies upon the fact that we havent seen every ship using it because you stated we had only seen one ship using it, I however provided evidence for another 2 and interest that implied others could use it, you have no evidence only a lack of total evidence on my part so you have nothing.

Now either explain your insane assumptions or continue lying and chanting - I think we all know which you will choose to do.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-08-19 02:18pm

My entire conclusion is based on the same reason we don't assume the Imperial Remnant has built a SSD with a GravShock Inducer, or the NR has X-wings covered in Quantum Crystalline Armour, or that every TIE carries Magpulse Torpedos. Because we see no proof they are in use.

Now, since you have now proceeded into the 'Uh, you're the one being a dishonest debator, NOT ME! YOU YOU YOU!' stage, I doubt anything that will even resemble a thought out reply will follow this. You will continue to accuse me of lies, you will continue to ignore that normal shields are better than Metaphasics in all cases(Even stars, reference Relics), you will never provide any proof to refute this(How do I know? Because none exists, I've checked.), and you will continue to claim victory.

Same as you do when you are soundly beaten concerning S8472 and SubTrans.

And now Darkling will continue his broken record, never offering proof it's in the fleet....

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-08-19 02:40pm

We dont assume the NR has X-wings covered in Quantum Crystalline Armour because we have never seen such craft we have however seen metaphasic shields in use on more than one craft and we have no reason to believe it destroyed despite your protests, I have already dealt with Relics twice and yet you ignore what I( have said in something beyond which Darkstar would pull(at least he would see the evidence and say it was irrelevant instaed of just ignoring it).

So are you admitting shuttles, the Ent-d and feregi craft can use it but no other? could you explain why you believe this to be - no? because I have asked at least 3 times now and yuo keep ignoring me.

I am not the broken record here it is you, your last 8 posts havent changed in substance even though I have brought forward new explanantions and rebuttles your ignoring of this evidence amounts to a concession in my eyes and thus I accept it.

Now please for the sake of saving you from RSI please just quote you last response because it will amount to the same no doubt.

Im also afraid that the Subtrans thread wasnt won by you sirnitram because as soon as I proved SF vessels had jamming the entire argument against fell apart.

As for 8472 I recently rewatched all the 8472 episodes (I now have them all on hand) and their actions against the Borg are explained by them and guess what, is exactly as I said.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-08-19 03:50pm

Of course my latest posts haven't changed much, Darkling. They've consisted of asking for proof of your claims that the entire fleet has Metaphasic shields. Proof you won't provide(Because, of course, it doesn't exist). Your entire debating scheme very much matches Dark Star's previous, less moronic incarnation: Make a claim, and deflect any requests for evidence, accusing anyone else who challenges you of being dishonest.

Again, I request you put forth evidence that they transmitted the program to the entire fleet. Please, put it forward. Not 'Well, they keep lots of spare stuff on their databanks..', actual direct canon evidence.

Now, let's see where you 'defeated' me on Relics...

Darkling wrote:As for relics - the ship wasnt in good shape so I think that also explains that away.

Wow. So, let me get this straight. A weakened Enterprise-D taking more stellar bombardment than it did when it had Metaphasics online explains things in your favour? Whatever you're smoking, please share. The E-D absorbed roughly 30 times the stellar bombardment in Relics than it did in Descent Part 2, and it didn't have Metaphasics. Mike Wong explains this better than me, maybe I should refer you to his Shield page for Trek to see what I've tried to pound into your skull.

Your continual swatting at the analogies I give only reveal your hypocrisy. We know QC armour can be made by Imperial(Suncrusher), Republic(The Jedi Academy's shuttle), and private(The temple) groups. We know QC armour can be placed on varying things. In fact, the only proof against AC coated X-wings is the exact same proof I am using against you: We never see such.

I never claimed no other ship can use the shielding, in fact I explicitly stated otherwise. Lying is very dishonest, Darkling. Try not to do it, especially if you're going to claim I am. What I stated, very clearly, is there is no reason to beleive it's been transmitted to the fleet. Why? I don't know. Why don't they have 500 Isoton warheads ready to go during the battle of Wolf 359? Now, it could be as simple as the Metaphasic shield, being less efficient at blocking even stellar radiation, has been returned to the drawing board, taken back to formula. I don't particularly care where it went: It's not in use by the fleets.

I love you claiming to win the SubTrans debate. "Uh, uh, we have jamming!!!!111" was your basic defense, ignoring that SW jamming extends through all subspace(Something you only replied to with intermittant claims of 'That's wasteful' and 'No, you can't do that! YOU CAN't WAH!'), and that particle shields block all of subspace. But please, if you think you won, don't start your masturbatory fantasies of it in here.

You were smashed by no less than a half-dozen debators on S8472, and like the Subtrans debate, you just employed Invincible Ignorance.. A very dishonest tactic.

Now please, enlighten me to your stealth reply about Relics which explains it all away.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-08-19 04:51pm

Have you addressed my rebuttals - no you simply ignore them thus I can accept you concession.

Now despite my better judgement I will attempt to reason with you.

The technology was hailed as a "revlution" so much so that Crusher thought it may be worth killing for, which in fact it was but you would claim that the Ent-D never reported this and the scientists (one who had been working on the tech for years) simply forgot it?

We also know that Geordi had been working on getting the metaphasic shielding to work but of course this task is beyond the Feds best minds some of whom had all the data Geordi had on the subject and were in fact more renowned in that field than he was (they are scientists you see while he was an engineer.)
We also know that Geordi reports upgrades and the like to SF command as whitnessed when Leah Brahms turns up to take a look at what he has been doing.

So lets see so far the tech has been shown to be revolutionary and brilliant.
The feds have a working model and the feds best expert in the field who had been trying to perfect the technology had all the datya that Geordi had and he replicated the results so I see no reason why she could not.
The feds have a working model of this tech in their hands(just making sure its clear).
A federation engineer creates his own test setup of the tech which is used and met with sucess.
The federation has interest in scientific knowledge and it is stated this tech would help in that quest.

OK now the above is evidence that points to my conclusion.

Now onto the Relics incident.

First we have SirNitram using a quote of mine to further his own ends however it doesnt matter because what I said in the quote is true and proves that which I stated it proved.

The ship has suffered heavy damage and thus it is understandable that they could not deploy the metaphasic shield.

Now is the metaphasic shield better in relation to its use for entering stars?

The evidence - The original test shuttle is able to enter a star which the Ent-D cvould not enter thus showing that this tech has a purpose in that it allows federation vessels to enter a star.

However there is a problem -in Relics it seems normal shields act better than the metaphasic shields.

This however is incorrect you see in Relics the Ent-D is in a far different situation than in Descent part two or Suspicions.
You see in relics the ship is cruising around without its shields on until a flare pops up yet in Suspicions the shuttle is in temperatures of at least 2 Million K now we know from Descent part 2 that the ships hull cant take much more than 12,000k thus it is obvious that the situations in the two episodes cant be compared.
Therefore the ambient temp outside the ship in relics is at least 2 orders of magnitude LOWER than those of the other two incidents (taking the star in descent to be your average sol type star).
We now have evidence that the two incidents arent similar however I will continue to add evidence onto this.

The Borg in Descent Part 2 cant enter the stars corona after the Ent-D due to its lack of metaphasic shields however if SirNitram is to be believed any ship with normal shields could wade in there after the Ent-d, now this could be explained away that the Borgs shields werent adapted for the star and would thus be ineffectual against it (a somewhat strange claim but it may crop up) thus I will state that Crusher states htat they cant be followed because the Borg dont have metaphasic shields not because Borg shields cant handle a star or because Borg dont use normal shields.

I will also now explain the apparent low resistance of the metapahsic shielding to the star in Descent part, first off we have no timeframe for the amount of time the Ent-D spent within the star but let us put this aside.
The program Geordi was testing may have had errors in it for a start (testing often leads to adjustment and refinement ask any engineer - this is called prototyping) so this could account for the situation.

We also have the fact that Geordi the man who designed the program was not there to oversee its implementation leaving someone who may not have as much knowledge of the system in charge, this is hardly ideal circumstances and it gets worse, the ship was still undermanned at this point adding to the bad factors of this first test.
We also have the fact that the Ent-D had been damaged by the borg and was suffering at least some shield damage, the effect of this upon on the metaphasic shield is unknown but it cannot be good however.

I believe this addresse's the information on the metaphasic shield and I would also point out that this information has already been posted once and I didnt get a response then.

Now onto SirNitrams character attacks.

SirNitram did you ask me to prove ships other than the Ent-D had ever used the metaphasic shielding - in fact you stated this evidence did not exist (either a lie or you didnt know what you were talking about).

Now why ask me to prove something you know to be untrue of irrelevant - this is either dishonest debating (you knew other ships had used it or you didnt think thuis was relevant yet used it as a smokescreen) or you were asking me to prove ships other than the Ent-d had used it in which case you are lying now - which is it?

NO actually the lack of me proving SF ships had jamming was the pro wars main defence since I showed every major power had jamming except the Feds and it was stated until I showed the feds could Jam I had nothing, I then brought my evidence of fed jamming to the table and the pro wars arguemtn fell into disarray with you clinging to a single quote that I explained in three, yes THREE theories what it could mean you choose none of them and instead stuck to one interpretation that conflicted with canon evidence from over 3 episodes - im sorry but I won it, however that being said I dont wish to discuss it here because we will become sidetracked, the same goes for 8472 which was basically people yelling I was wrong however thus it was a draw however since I have now heard their reasoning in their own words and it concurs with me I have enough canon evidence to win that debate aswell.