Could 40K IOM use a Bolo?

[keen320]

I thought of this since I started reading a Bolo book after reading the tank thread. I was wondering, would IOM be willing to try and use a Bolo? Or would they consider it "heretical" or something, like seemingly everything outside the IOM? I'm interested in how this would go with their weird machine spirit stuff.

I'm assuming one of the later, self-aware Bolos, and that Bolos are powerful enough to be useful or a threat to them. I'm also assuming they find a way to get it to listen to them instead of going paranoid and thinking they are "the Enemy." Would they need to find the command codes/whatever, or could they find a work-around?

Finally, this scenario would probably involve them finding one on a planet somewhere, although If someone could think of a scenario where they would be more likely to get chummy, let me know. Also, it wakes up before they would have a chance to destroy it while asleep, if that is their first reaction. (I don't know how it would get in their universe, wormhole or something, don't care)

[Chaotic Neutral]

The galaxy's a big place. One Inquisitor's heresy is another Inquisitor's brave death.

[Uraniun235]

I thought self-aware, self-directing machines were one of the ultimate taboos of the Imperium. It'll probably get torched one way or another as an unacceptable threat (of some form or another) to the security of the Imperium. Either way, one Bolo would be utterly insignificant.

[keen320]

Either way, one Bolo would be utterly insignificant.

Okay, forgot how big the Imperium was.
What if there were 10-50 Bolos? Whatever number wold make them significant? I really don't know their power relative to the Imperium, since I only just started reading their books and know little about the power of the Imperium's weapons. I would think that size-wise, they might be similar to a Titan, at least one of the lesser ones, would they be similar in destructiveness?

[adam_grif]

If they found a bolo factory, it might be significant. They may well think they've stumbled upon one of the factories that builds the Men of Iron, or in this case, Tanks of Iron.

[Agent Sorchus]

Why would a bolo be any better than their Titans? Everything the Bolo does is at least equal to what the titans do so what would the point be? Sure Titan's aren't capable of full independent thought but in 40k that isn't really a weakness, smart weapons can be corrupted as easily as the soldier that wields dumb weapons. But the Titan is still a land Battleship of the same quality as a Bolo.

[Uraniun235]

Even a single Bolo factory would be insignificant - one factory can be destroyed, and its output would be insufficient to significantly alter the composition of Imperium forces. Now, a complete schematic for a Bolo factory and all the component parts that go into making a Bolo, that could be something else entirely - you could build as many factories as you had the resources for.

But like I said I'm pretty sure they'd be considered banned technology. Or I'm sure they'd be corrupted by chaos like everything ever. Or they'd never see front-line use because of bureaucracy. Or some other 40K thing.

Why would a bolo be any better than their Titans? Everything the Bolo does is at least equal to what the titans do so what would the point be? Sure Titan's aren't capable of full independent thought but in 40k that isn't really a weakness, smart weapons can be corrupted as easily as the soldier that wields dumb weapons. But the Titan is still a land Battleship of the same quality as a Bolo.

The biggest asset a Bolo has isn't its main gun or its energy screens or its point-defense lasers or its tactical nuclear weapons - it's the brainbox inside. Even the Bolos that aren't self-aware have a tremendous advantage in reflexes and response time.

[Chris OFarrell]

The Bolo does have some key advantages over a Titan, the biggest being that it can fly, moving around a hell of a lot faster then even a small scout TItan can run, meaning it can dictate the engagement.

The Battlescreen technology is useful, at least against artillary and projectile weapons. But against Plasma cannons? Laser Cannons? I don't know if the Battlescreens will actually DO anything. Where as the Titans void shields will put up a solid defense, although I still think the primary Hellbores of something like a Mark XXXIII *will* Instantgib even a Warlord class Titan. Given the Bolos reaction times and range/firepower, I can't see any Titan easily taking one down, despite the relativly equal standing I'd say in terms of raw firepower/defenses they have.

Honestly, I'd see them being the perfect Space Marine unit. Use a Bolo to directly support fast strike actions from Battle Barges, as well as providing a secure forward base to operate from, massive fire support system for the Marines when they need more then a Whirlwind and less then a Bombardment cannon, and a highly effective anti Titan/Superunit weapon. I somehow doubt even a Greater Daemon will appriciate getting hit by three reletavistic particle beams...

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

The Imperium is a bit more complex than simply presenting a unified cry of 'HERESY!!!'


Depending upon on where and how it's discovered, we'd probably see a number of factions and parties vying for control for one reason or another:

The Inquisition would quickly get wind of it, and the debate would rage. Most would agree it's archeotech, some would argue for its destruction, others would take a more pragmatic view. Who comes out on top and at what cost is completely up in the air.

The Adeptus Mechanicus would have a very keen interest in it. They would want it studied in secret and absolutely off-limits to everyone else. After decades of poking and prodding at it, they'd probably disassemble it and use the components for lesser technological gains, rather than trying to duplicate or understand the entire thing.

If a sufficiently well-off Rogue Trader found it, he'd simply exploit it for profit any way possible. Sell bits of it, sell the location, or just use it in some convoluted money-making scheme.

Space Marines would rip it apart if they they thought for even a moment it might be a threat. If not, they'd probably take the pragmatic approach and adapt components for their own use, much to the Mechanicus's alarm.

Now if the Ecclesiarchy got wind of it, yes, there would be lots of cries of 'HERESY!!!' and massive campaigns involving fire.

[[R_H]]

Space Marines would rip it apart if they they thought for even a moment it might be a threat. If not, they'd probably take the pragmatic approach and adapt components for their own use, much to the Mechanicus's alarm.

Space Marines (Techmarines) have the knowledge to do so?

[Darth Tanner]

Space Marines (Techmarines) have the knowledge to do so?

I'm pretty sure the average Techmarine is limited to battlefield repair and combat engineering. I can't think of any chapters using tech they just found laying around to supplement their existing equipment load, as far as I know they go as far as to frown on marines using the enemies fallen weaponry in battle let alone keeping it afterwards.

As for a bolo tank its only really useful if it takes the form of a standard template construct design so that the AdMech can declare it holy and roll out its production to several forge worlds. I'd expect that a human operator would be installed somewhere in the design however to keep an organic hand on the machine spirit like they do with their existing tank and titan AI. But really with all the wank crap magic a bolo can be expected to achieve giving the Imperium such a leg up on mobility and armour technology would be a bonus regardless of whether the AdMech kept the tech in Bolo form or simply upgraded existing designs so that Baneblade can fly around with magic armour.

One question however is that from the wiki article a late gen Bolo is over 32,000 tonnes, more than the UKs aircraft carriers at the minute so the feats its capable of are not that spectacular when compared to Imperium spaceships, some of which are capable of operating in low atmosphere at which point the Bolo becomes relatively worthless as a game changer in the IoM as the main feature of handing control over to an AI is not going to be used.

[Broken]

Space Marines would rip it apart if they they thought for even a moment it might be a threat. If not, they'd probably take the pragmatic approach and adapt components for their own use, much to the Mechanicus's alarm.

Space Marines (Techmarines) have the knowledge to do so?

Even if Techmarines had the knowledge/resources to exploit the discovery of a Bolo STC, I'm not certain they would do so. After all, Techmarines are initiates into the Adeptus Mechanicus and I seem to recall that they are even all receive their training/induction on Mars itself. Hell, the Dark Angels don't even allow Techmarines into their Inner Circle (the ones that know the truth about the Fallen Dark Angels and secretly direct the chapter and its successors to hunt them) due to this dual loyalty. That's even assuming they get past the Imperium's ban on independent AI due to those wars the Men of Iron waged.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

Various Space Marine Chapters have engineered all manner of vehicle and weapon variants entirely of their own accord, independent of the Mechanicus. Even conservative Chapters like the Black Templar have done so with the Land Raider Crusader. Space Marines are very autonomous and often as self-sufficient as is practical.

[Black Admiral]

In fact, a major part of the plot of Helsreach involves the Templars (in the persons of Reclusiarch Grimaldus & Master of the Forge Jurisian) giving the AdMech the finger in a big way; specifically; Spoiler

reactivating and using an Ordinatus, after the coggies've told them not to

[Agent Sorchus]

Why would a bolo be any better than their Titans? Everything the Bolo does is at least equal to what the titans do so what would the point be? Sure Titan's aren't capable of full independent thought but in 40k that isn't really a weakness, smart weapons can be corrupted as easily as the soldier that wields dumb weapons. But the Titan is still a land Battleship of the same quality as a Bolo.

The biggest asset a Bolo has isn't its main gun or its energy screens or its point-defense lasers or its tactical nuclear weapons - it's the brainbox inside. Even the Bolos that aren't self-aware have a tremendous advantage in reflexes and response time.

Yet Titans are not limited by normal human reflexes either, since only the most augmented of the Tech priests are allowed the honor of embarking on a Titan. The oldest Titans are closer to independent thought despite being rare as all things that are advanced in 40k are.

So yes the mind of the Bolo is probably better, but not by enough of a degree to really make things clearly to their favor.

[Crossroads Inc.]

I'll agree that BOLO "brains" might actually be more useful then the tanks themselves. BOLO have proven several times to be able to think their way out of overwhelming situations. Installing a BOLO into some of the mroe massive IOM ships could allow them to have a far greater impact on things.

[Lancer]

Even though AI is supposed to be heretical, we've seen Land Raiders breeze through that sanction.

[Serafina]

The point where it get's heretical is where they gain sentience. Machine Spirits like that of the Land Raider are simply fed some basic goals (kill all humans enemies of the emperor) and are then capable of achieving these goals, without a crew if necessary. That doesn't require sentience, and it's already dangerous (machine spirits can be corrupted).

Given that a Bolo has actual sentience, it would be tech-heresy. Given that's it is a titan-equivalent tank, it would be a major tech-heresy, and the AM would probably blow up the planet where it's currently on.

[keen320]

Just thought, whatever the IOM decided to do, the Bolo would probably love the 40K universe, given a chance at a fight. Seeing as they are programmed to love combat, and the 40K universe is pretty much war 24/7.

[Uraniun235]

The point where it get's heretical is where they gain sentience. Machine Spirits like that of the Land Raider are simply fed some basic goals (kill all humans enemies of the emperor) and are then capable of achieving these goals, without a crew if necessary. That doesn't require sentience, and it's already dangerous (machine spirits can be corrupted).

Given that a Bolo has actual sentience, it would be tech-heresy. Given that's it is a titan-equivalent tank, it would be a major tech-heresy, and the AM would probably blow up the planet where it's currently on.

Under those conditions I'd say you could probably get away with up to a Mk23, maybe even a 24 and be able to point to the Land Raider and claim non-heretical equivalence - the 20-24 series only experiences self-awareness, and limited at that, in full combat mode, and who's to say the Imperium is going to immediately find out about that feature?

Even without that, a Mk19 would still be viciously effective - the programming is still fairly 'smart' even without self-awareness.

The Bolo does have some key advantages over a Titan, the biggest being that it can fly, moving around a hell of a lot faster then even a small scout TItan can run, meaning it can dictate the engagement.

Flight only comes into play with the latest (and most ridiculous) Bolos, even most of the self-aware models don't have contra-grav. Flight also leaves even the wankiest Bolos nakedly vulnerable.

The biggest asset a Bolo has isn't its main gun or its energy screens or its point-defense lasers or its tactical nuclear weapons - it's the brainbox inside. Even the Bolos that aren't self-aware have a tremendous advantage in reflexes and response time.

Yet Titans are not limited by normal human reflexes either, since only the most augmented of the Tech priests are allowed the honor of embarking on a Titan. The oldest Titans are closer to independent thought despite being rare as all things that are advanced in 40k are.

So yes the mind of the Bolo is probably better, but not by enough of a degree to really make things clearly to their favor.

How augmented is "most augmented"? I guess the question is, how much gray matter is still being used to respond to problems and make decisions? How much AI is involved in operating the Titan's systems?

[Serafina]

I readily admit that i have no idea about Bolos - i initially though that the thread title was referring to Bolas, and that it was just a typo

Still, i can give some input on 40K. And yes, they might not find out immedeately - but does the Bolo have a crew? If it doesn't, they will find out almost immedeately. If it does, it depends on the crew and how suspicious they are.

[Enigma]

I readily admit that i have no idea about Bolos - i initially though that the thread title was referring to Bolas, and that it was just a typo

Still, i can give some input on 40K. And yes, they might not find out immedeately - but does the Bolo have a crew? If it doesn't, they will find out almost immedeately. If it does, it depends on the crew and how suspicious they are.

The Bolos, at least later versions do not need any crew to operate. It can function fine if not better than having a human direct the battle. The reason the Bolos are given commanders is so the brass can feel comfortable knowing that there's a human in command and not a mobile planetary weapons platform. They're afraid of Bolos going rogue.

[The Yosemite Bear]

the better question would be what would an adaptus mechanicus group do if they found a Von Neumann warmachine capable of building factories, and robotic warships etc...

[Ghost Rider]

the better question would be what would an adaptus mechanicus group do if they found a Von Neumann warmachine capable of building factories, and robotic warships etc...

Either it would regarded as the greatest STC find ever, taken over by Chaos/Necrons/Eldar, or destroyed because it's tainted.

Your point?

[CaptainChewbacca]

Bolos in 40k are all well and good, but what happens when a Mark-30 starts seriously considering what Khorne has to say?