Non-Federation Diplomats

[Metahive]

Maybe for other Gorn, like we do in real life

No, we don't mark territory for other Gorn in real life. They are a fictional species in a non-serious science-fiction series and it would therefore be most illogical to do so /Vulcan

Seriously now, what kind of demarkation would that be that only Gorn can pick up but nobody else, especially a means that should tell people off before making landfall? Occam's already looking over your shoulder, his razor's at the ready and that's already ignoring that the episode at no point ever even hinted at that possibility.

They might just drew a line on a map. Kirk probably should have stopped at a gas station and picked one up!

That bandwith could have been used for something intelligent, too bad you wasted it. I'll make up for it:

"Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law."

[Junghalli]

One possibility that's always come to my mind for an ambiguous claim marker is one that's just very old.

OK, there's a claim marker artifact, but it's been sitting there for 200 or 2000 or 2 million years, and as far as you can tell nobody has touched the place since. Maybe they just forgot about it, or died out, or something.

Also, would it necessarily be easy to create an unambiguous claim marker? You've got a message ("this is mine") and now you've got to figure out a way to convey it to aliens you know nothing about, who won't know your language, and won't necessarily be able to correctly interpret any "obvious" symbols like pictograms. You're not even sure how their sense organs are going to work. Your marker would have to basically be able to teach aliens to communicate with you or else it could easily be too ambiguous to perform its intended function.

[Metahive]

Destructionator, it surely hasn't been lost on you that I made the map argument in a different context, there it was that the Federation had already made contact with members of the Dominion and could have been handed starmaps containing its outlines. The Gorn planet however was heretofore unexplored frontier space with no first contacts until the Gorn attack. That's quite a difference right here. The only maps the Federation had available were their own.

Points off for an attempt to be clever but failing miserably and general dishonesty. F-, you flunk, sit down.

[Junghalli]

I figure probably what happened with the Gorn is they left what they thought would be some sort of reasonably obvious claim marker but they underestimated the alienness of the aliens (humans), who either misinterpreted it, couldn't figure out what it was supposed to mean, or just didn't share certain assumptions the people who designed the marker didn't examine too closely.

[Metahive]

You saying so won't make it so. In case A we have the Federation exploring the Gamma quadrant for two years, including making first contact with dominion members, but at no point does the Dominion bother to make its territorial claims known to the Federation in any way. They just sit there and procrastinate for two whole years and then decide to mass murder the intruders out of the blue instead of doing the reasonable thing and letting any of their members hand those newcomers a map. In case B we have the Federation happening upon a planet in what's presumed to be unclaimed space. No one else in the vicinity to give them any maps with Gorn territory on it or even hinting at their existence, no obvious sign of intelligent presence on or around the planet. Again, a fucking artificial satellite orbiting the planet would have sufficed but there's nothing!

If you still think that's just the same situation, then that's entirely a problem with your perception or your fetishism for Gorn penis and I won't try any further to convince you.

[Metahive]

I marked the important points in red in my previous post that you just deigned to completely gloss over and which explain why my argument can't be used out of context re: maps. Stop ignoring my arguments.
And please, no more of that "Gorn used totally culture specific markers that are impossible for others to decipher" nonsense. Let me cut it short, affirmative canon-evidence for that or concession. There, I'm tired of this.

[Junghalli]

Again, a fucking artificial satellite orbiting the planet would have sufficed but there's nothing!

It would have been a sign of intelligent presence, but that doesn't necessarily equal a claim marker. It might be a navigation beacon (if transmitting) or space junk left over from an earlier expedition (if not) or an artwork etc. The simple presence of something artificial is not an unambiguous "this is mine" message.

I suppose then you could say the Federation was stupid for colonizing a planet that aliens had left an artifact around, but what if it was 500 years old? Maybe the Gorn have been civilized way longer than humans so what to us looks like the place has been abandoned forever looks to them like it has a reasonably recent claim on it*. Considering how crowded the Star Trek universe is don't touch any system with alien artifacts in it may not be a practical policy.

* Obviously this arguably requires some stupidity from both sides, with neither one examining certain assumptions of theirs, but that's the sort of thing I find somewhat acceptable in fiction. People do stupid things in real life and drama is rather hard to write if you're held to the expectation that everyone be hypercompetent all the time.

[Metahive]

It would have been a sign of intelligent presence, but that doesn't necessarily equal a claim marker.

Yet it would give potential colonizers food for thought whether or not the planet is claimed at all. Would present a motivation to seek out any potentially spacefaring species in the vicinity, don't you think. Better than using no markers whatsoever and then immediately resorting to lethal force against any intruder anyway. Jesus, people, why do you have to make this so way more complicated than it is? The writers used shoddy writing to cheaply provoke conflict, is that so hard to admit?

[Kythnos]

And no, if your first contact had been with warmongering shitheads like the Klingons, you'd be badly served to shoot upon any alien in sight, since that might mean you're losing a potential ally against the Klingons...as they nearly did in this episode.

LOL - Do you by any chance remember what the Klingon looked like in the TOS?
Spoiler

I doubt they could tell the difference.

[Metahive]

Yes, it's not like the Federation uses completely different ship designs, speaks a different language and has quite a different disposition towards aliens. Nope, Gorn are dumb and primitive so all humanoids are the same for them.

Again, if you can only make your point by making the Gorn stupider then I'd suggest you reconsider.

[Baffalo]

This happens to coincide with exploration on the part of the Federation. Starfleet seems to make a pretty big deal out of exploration, but we saw time and again throughout TOS that some colonies lost contact with Earth, left the Federation, or just headed out into uncharted space for no fucking reason. Forgive me, but if you're going to mount a full expedition to send a massive ship(s) out with a bunch of colonists, wouldn't it make sense to let someone in the government know?

An example would be the British declaring that settlers in the Colonies couldn't travel past their outposts on the borders of the original colonies, despite there being ample territory officially claimed by England. The reason for this was for protection. Yet there were a few instances (notably in Kentucky) where the locals told England to piss off and they were going to be left alone. Technically, they're British citizens, but they've left the territories allowed by the British for settling.

In much the same way, the Federation seems to have no qualms about sending lightly armed colonists and settlers out to worlds that are uncharted. They lose all contact, and only later establish contact. How hard would it be to ask for a starship ride alongside until they get there, just to mark the correct system and pop in two or three times a year to see how things are going? It seems to be completely retarded that the Federation lets anyone ride off into the sunset without asking them to at least write them a post card.

So I'm starting to wonder whether the Gorn attacks on human settlements wasn't just a case of several idiots banding together, telling the Federation where they can stick it, before riding off to get butchered by lizard people and served as a delicious main course with a side of whatever passes for Gorn soup.

[Kythnos]

Yes, it's not like the Federation uses completely different ship designs, speaks a different language and has quite a different disposition towards aliens. Nope, Gorn are dumb and primitive so all humanoids are the same for them.

Again, if you can only make your point by making the Gorn stupider then I'd suggest you reconsider.

Funny I don't remember there being a Ship in orbit around Cestus 3 when it was attacked. So scans would have only shown what appears to be Klingons on one of their worlds. In fact since the Klingon had human augment DNA they are genetically similar as well. As for the language now you are just grasping at straws, can you identify a type of dog by it's bark alone? Or tell the difference between Chinese, Japanese and Korean?

Again you have the drop on what by all appearances is your enemy and you will not take it?

[Metahive]

23rd century sensors are capable of picking different species apart, look how readily McCoy identifies the klingon infiltrator in The Trouble with Tribbles once he gets a medical scanner near him and that almost just by the different pulse frequency. Since there's no evidence that the Federation is somehow special in that regard, I've good reason to presume that the Gorn can do likewise if they only go undertake the effort. But to cut that one short too, you will next present affirmative canon evidence for the Gorns mistaking the federation settlers for Klingons or concede. Notice how they didn't cease their attack or were apologetic in any way even after the Enterprise entered Cestus IIIs orbit and the intruders were definitely identified as human so it's BS anyway.
Let's get this back out from the realm of speculation and Gorn worship.

[Junghalli]

Yet it would give potential colonizers food for thought whether or not the planet is claimed at all. Would present a motivation to seek out any potentially spacefaring species in the vicinity, don't you think.

Space is big. If the nearest Gorn colony was, say, ~50 light years away the Federation might have to survey thousands of stars to find it. I can buy a search they thought reasonable turning up nothing.

Better than using no markers whatsoever and then immediately resorting to lethal force against any intruder anyway.

I don't think the episode ever established that there were no markers whatsoever.

Jesus, people, why do you have to make this so way more complicated than it is? The writers used shoddy writing to cheaply provoke conflict, is that so hard to admit?

You won't get any argument from me there. It was definitely a weak point of the episode. Thankfully the whole thing was left vague enough so we can speculate on possibilities that don't require the Gorn to be violent morons.

[Metahive]

Space is big. If the nearest Gorn colony was, say, ~50 light years away the Federation would have to survey thousands of stars to find it. I can buy a search they thought reasonable turning up nothing.

All the more reason to clearly mark it as their territory and all the more reason to chide them for not doing so. The Federation at least puts something on its remote colonies, even if its just a measely one-man outpost.
Heck, why even presume it was their territory in the first place? They might as well have happened upon the planet by coincidence and decided to violently steal it from the Federation, later just lying about having a claim on it. Would make their actions way more understandable if horribly immoral and undermining the aesopic preaching in the end.
Yeah, not a high point of trek writing here.

I don't think the episode ever established that there were no markers whatsoever.

We are not going to demand to prove a negative here, aren't we? Neither the Gorn nor the Metron do claim that markers were present but overlooked or misunderstood in the episode.

[Junghalli]

We are not going to demand to prove a negative here, aren't we? Neither the Gorn nor the Metron do claim that markers were present but overlooked or misunderstood in the episode.

I'm not demanding proof that such a thing couldn't have existed, I'm just saying it might have and it's one of the more obvious ways to make the episode's premise more sensible.

Are we really fundamentally disagreeing about anything? We both agree the episode could have been better written - we seem to be just nitpicking each other.

[Metahive]

Stofsk originally brought this episode up as "evidence" that the Federation was totally wrong in colonizing any planet in the Gamma Quadrant and that the destruction of those colonies was justified. I just can't see that in any way, considering the Dominion failed even harder to make its claims known than the Gorn. That's why I take the episode as is, without any rationalizations to make the plot look more sensible than it is.

[FTeik]

Concerning the Gorn, how do we know, that they didn't mark the planet as their territory and the Feds were just too dumb (or culturally/physiologically different) to notice it?

For whom exactly do you think the Gorn would be marking their territory if not for eventual alien visitors? So if they designed their "demarkation" in a way that aliens were unlikely to decipher then that's another failing on their part. Again, just put a fucking artificial body in the planet's orbit, that way people no matter from where will know that someone's been here already.

Holy Christ on a Pickle, common sense people! It's not that fucking hard!

Yes, because they should have accounted for all eventuality. If you'd read the rest of my post, you would have noticed, that I gave a number of reasons for why their marker was never noticed by the Feds.

And didn't Spock say, they had picked up unidentified signals from that region? How if that was their marker? "This is our territory, stay out or be destroyed." Pity the Feds didn't/couldn't understand it.

We also don't know, how the contact before the destruction of the colony went - maybe the Gorn tried to talk and the commander of the Outpost got all high-and-mighty on them.

Concerning your argument about advances sensors for discovering the difference between Klingons and humans: McCoy was standing right next to the imposter, while the Gorn were probably sitting in orbit. If both forces enjoy a comparable level of technology, what you suggest might not have worked. Note, that the Federation-away-team didn't realize, that the colony had been destroyed until they had beamed down.

■"Captain's log, stardate 3045.6. The Enterprise has responded to a call from Earth observation outpost on Cestus III. On landing, we have discovered that the outpost has been destroyed."

[Metahive]

Please, no more speculation OK? Only what's stated in the episode itself, there's no use in inventing rationalizations and justifications when the episode never hints at them and the reason the whole thing was brought up in the first place was to compare it to the first attack of the Dominion on the Federation, let's not forget that.
All this "the Gorn somehow marked their territory but the humies were too dumb/oblivious/insufficiently culturally atuned to notice it" is not evident in the episode and is never brought up by either the Gorn or the Metron, no, in the end Kirk just says they should just not presume all empty planets to be planets that are up for colonization. That's it.

Concerning your argument about advances sensors for discovering the difference between Klingons and humans: McCoy was standing right next to the imposter, while the Gorn were probably sitting in orbit. If both forces enjoy a comparable level of technology, what you suggest might not have worked.

McCoy also had only a tiny medical tricorder at hand and the subject probably has undertaken measures to conceal his species from casual scans. Unlike the scientific tricorder, medical tricorders in TOS never had much range and the whole Klingon tangent here is non-canon anyway so that's the last time I'll write about it.

"Captain's log, stardate 3045.6. The Enterprise has responded to a call from Earth observation outpost on Cestus III. On landing, we have discovered that the outpost has been destroyed."

Easy explanation, they didn't scan the location beforehand since they didn't await any hostilities. In A Taste of Armageddon, ship scanners are shown to be capable to pick up traces of combat (in this case the lack of it), if I remember right.

[Kythnos]

23rd century sensors are capable of picking different species apart, look how readily McCoy identifies the klingon infiltrator in The Trouble with Tribbles once he gets a medical scanner near him and that almost just by the different pulse frequency. Since there's no evidence that the Federation is somehow special in that regard, I've good reason to presume that the Gorn can do likewise if they only go undertake the effort. But to cut that one short too, you will next present affirmative canon evidence for the Gorns mistaking the federation settlers for Klingons or concede. Notice how they didn't cease their attack or were apologetic in any way even after the Enterprise entered Cestus IIIs orbit and the intruders were definitely identified as human so it's BS anyway.

To start I point out that is was less than canon evidence. Second Canon is what ever the owners will think gets them the most money, so what is "fact" now is fiction tomorrow. So that is the only point you can argue.
Yet amazingly the sensors on the ship did not pick him out when they approached the space station, nor did any of the stations sensors.

Concede are you joking your argument is:
"Intelligence precludes Hostility"

Read a history book or watch the news. Those violent actions are not being done by bears or wolves.

[FTeik]

Please, no more speculation OK? Only what's stated in the episode itself, there's no use in inventing rationalizations and justifications when the episode never hints at them and the reason the whole thing was brought up in the first place was to compare it to the first attack of the Dominion on the Federation, let's not forget that.

No problem with that. As stated in the episode the Feds were in Gorn-territory without permission. And they also didn't become outraged at the fact, that the Gorn obviously started to shoot first without any attempt at talking when they learned about this. So why should we?

[Metahive]

To start I point out that is was less than canon evidence. Second Canon is what ever the owners will think gets them the most money, so what is "fact" now is fiction tomorrow. So that is the only point you can argue.

As far as I know, the stated canon policy of Star Trek is "All live action series, the movies and some bits and pieces of the animated series are canon, everything else is not". If you've got information on them having changed that, let me know. Otherwise don't bother me with your special idea of what is canon.

Yet amazingly the sensors on the ship did not pick him out when they approached the space station, nor did any of the stations sensors.

I brought up the possibility of him having most probably concealed himself against casual, non-medical scans.

"Intelligence precludes Hostility"

Read a history book or watch the news. Those violent actions are not being done by bears or wolves.

Save your snark since that is not my argument at all. Read my posts again.

No problem with that. As stated in the episode the Feds were in Gorn-territory without permission.

Here's another reason to mark your territory clearly and obviously: because how else can you prove it is actually yours? If the Metron hadn't stated it, the Federation would have no reason to believe the intruded upon someone else's territory and plenty of reason to consider the Gorn the intruder.

[FTeik]

It wasn't the Metron, it was the Gorn-captain. And once again we just don't know, if there was some kind of marker for the planet or the border, and if there was, why the Feds were ignorant of it.

So in dubio pro reo.

But to get away from the Gorn. How does the Federation mark its territory? I'm thinking about planets like Baku from "Insurrection", which are within Fed-territory, but not part of the Federation.

[Wing Commander MAD]

I was just reviewing the episode on Memory Alpha, Kirk refers to it as an Earth oberservation outpost, and the message they originally responded to was believed to have been sent to by the outpost commander, a Commodor Travers. I have to leave now so I'll be brief, but I'll put out there that it appears Cestus III was a military outpost (possibly with a supporting colony). It sorta seems like it might be a colony sprung up around a military border outpost, similar to how towns sprung up along the Roman forts. If that is the case, it does change the situation a bit as a military outpost is a different matter than a bunch of unarmed colonists.

In my mind that also raises the question of the claim of being unarmed by the survivor. It seems to me that the claim is more hyberbole, in that they didn't have an major ground to space weaponry. Kirk afterall did find a mortar in the reckage, not something a expext a bunch of colonists to armed with for self defense.

[Metahive]

So in dubio pro reo.

The aggressive and sudden attack out of the blue is enough to throw everything the Gorn says into doubt. A murderer isn't to be trusted.

I have to leave now so I'll be brief, but I'll put out there that it appears Cestus III was a military outpost

D'uh, it's an outpost on the far reaches of the Federation surrounded by unknown space, arming it is quite a reasonable course of action, even more so after showing that there's indeed an aggressive species prowling the neighbourhood. That doesn't mean it had a military purpose.