Transgendered discussion (split from HoS)

[Setzer]

http://www.livescience.com/culture/tran ... ne+Feed%29

High Suicide Risk, Prejudice Plague Transgender People

By Clara Moskowitz, LiveScience Senior Writer

posted: 19 November 2010 10:39 am ET

A staggering 41 percent of transgender people in the United States have attempted to commit suicide, according to a new survey. About 19 percent of transgender people report being refused medical care because of their gender-nonconforming status, and a shocking 2 percent have been violently assaulted in a doctor's office.

These statistics are just some of the sobering findings from a survey of more than 7,000 transgender people conducted by the National Center for Transgender Equality and the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, released in October 2010.

Tomorrow (Nov. 20), the Transgender Day of Remembrance will pay tribute to people killed due to anti-transgender hatred or prejudice.
"It's an opportunity to honor the people who lost their lives for really no other reason than that another human being acted out of hatred or fear and were so consumed by that that they ended another person's life," said Justin Tanis, spokesperson for the National Center for Transgender Equality. "It's also an opportunity for us to look at what we can do about it. We've got to keep taking concrete steps to end that violence, because it's unacceptable that people continue to be killed and continue to be violently attacked."

Stacked deck

Psychologists say transgender people often face what feels like a stacked deck against them. The disapproval and confusion of friends, family and people around them creates a burden of stress. Many trans people fear for their safety because of the threat of anti-transgender violence.

Furthermore, many report having trouble finding and keeping jobs because of their transgender status.

"If there isn't a clause like an anti-discrimination rule, people can be let go if they transition" from one gender to another, said clinical psychologist Gail Knudson, a professor in the department of sexual medicine at the University of British Columbia and medical director of the Transgender Health Program at Vancouver Coastal Health. "And it's difficult if you do not pass well [as your preferred gender] to find employment because people are discriminated against."

One of the biggest issues many trans people face is the difficulty of changing gender. Transitioning from one gender to another can take many forms, but often requires hormone therapy and sometimes surgery on breasts and/or genitals.

Many people have to pay out-of-pocket for these expenses, because they either don't have medical insurance or their insurance doesn't cover the treatment. Additionally, the process takes a long time — most doctors follow guidelines called the Standards of Care that require people to live and present as their preferred gender for months before receiving any physical intervention.

Yet transgender people overwhelmingly say it's worth it. After transitioning, transgender people show a significant decrease in substance abuse problems and depression, for example, and their mental health significantly improves, Knudson said.

Before transition, people struggle with gender dysphoria — the feeling that they are stuck in the wrong body that doesn't match the way they feel on the inside.

"For their lives to go forward they need to transition," Knudson told LiveScience. "A lot of the health care providers that work in the field see transitioning as a medical necessity — not as something people chose to do, but as something they need to do to lead productive lives."

Other risks

In addition to their higher risk of suicide, transgender people face steeper odds for other health issues.

For example, the recent survey found that 2.64 percent of trans people are infected with HIV — that's more than four times the national average rate of 0.6 percent in the general population. And 25 percent of the survey respondents reported misusing drugs or alcohol specifically to cope with the discrimination they face due to their gender identity.

A 2003 study by Ilan H. Meyer of Columbia University found that lesbian, gay and bisexual people have a higher prevalence of mental disorders than heterosexuals. The author explains this prevalence in terms of minority stress, writing in the journal Psychological Bulletin that "stigma, prejudice, and discrimination create a hostile and stressful social environment that causes mental health problems."

Though transgender people weren't included in the study, these same stressors apply, experts say.

"Some of the key components of the minority stress model state that stigma, prejudice and discrimination create a hostile and stressful social environment that are correlated with increased incidence of other mental health problems (e.g., depression, anxiety, and in extreme cases — suicidal ideations)," Seth Pardo, a doctoral candidate in the department of human development at Cornell University, wrote in an e-mail to LiveScience. "Indeed, several recent reports have surfaced in the national and perhaps more so in the local media of gender-nonconforming youth and young adults being harassed or otherwise bullied at school."

Galvanizing effect

While many experts knew the situation was tough, results from the recent survey — the first one conducted on a large nationally representative sample of transgender people — were still surprising.

"I knew that the magnitude would be high, but I did not think the suicide attempt numbers would be that high," Knudson said. That 41 percent suicide rate among transgender people is more than 25 times the rate of the general population, which is 1.6 percent. And among trans people ages 18-44, the suicide attempt rate was 45 percent.

While sobering, Knudson said the findings may be effective in making some changes.

"It is very galvanizing in a sense that in order for policy to change we need that raw data," she said.

Previously, many studies on transgender people were combined with investigations on gays, lesbians and bisexuals. While the recent rash of teen suicides, many sparked by homophobia, has called attention to the plight of gay youth, there is data to suggest that transgender people can sometimes face even more prevalent discrimination and harassment.

"Many trans youth may begin by thinking they are just gay or lesbian because there is a strong correlation between gender nonconforming behavior and same-sex attractions," Pardo wrote. "However, because of this, many trans youth that do have same-sex attractions face the added stigma of being overtly different (behaviorally/dress style, etc.), and potentially represent several additional domains where bullying may become more prevalent (e.g., not just for partner preferences, but for behavior, dress style, choice of activities, etc.)."

However, there are some signs of hope on the horizon.

In 2009, the Matthew Shepard and James Byrd Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act was passed by Congress and signed into law by President Obama. The bill expands the pre-existing U.S. hate-crimes law to include crimes motivated by a victim's actual or perceived gender, sexual orientation, gender identity or disability. It also provides funding for investigating and prosecuting hate crimes, and requires the FBI to track statistics on hate crimes against transgender people.

"That was the first law to extend protections to transgender people," Tanis said. "While results will be long-term, it still means we're moving in the right direction."

The Trevor project operates the nation's only 24-hour toll-free suicide prevention helpline for gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, and questioning youth (1-866-4-U-TREVOR).

Sadly, I feel this article is nothing new for those who are familiar with transgenderism.

[Serafina]

Sadly, I feel this article is nothing new for those who are familiar with transgenderism.

It isn't. This is a very good article about it tough.

One of the major problem in the USA for transsexual people simply boils down to money. We all know the abyssal health care situation in the USA - it's even worse for transwomen/transmen. No insurance covers the costs of hormone treatment, surgery or other procedures, and just being transgendered (including interssexual) will make it almost impossible to get health insurance (even tough they don't cover it anyway).
The simple result is that transitioning is much, much harder. And due to the job discrimination, many transpeople just can't pay it out of their own pocket.

The situation is generally much better in the EU, where health insurance covers transitioning and you can live without a job due to unemployment benefits - so even if discriminated against (and laws exist to prevent that) a transsexual person can transition successfully. This is pretty much impossible in the USA without having lot's of saved money, relatives or friends who support you financially, having a really, really good employer - or resorting to prostitution, which is one of the reasons for the high HIV infection rate.

While the total cost for transitioning can amount to ~50.000$ (often less), that cost is actually rather low if compared to many other medical problems. After sex reassignment surgery, transsexual people only need female hormones and routine endocrinological checkups every 6-12 months - the costs for that are rather low, about 50-80$ a month (at german prices, that might vary for the USA).
Therefore, there is no real financial situation while health insurance should not cover transitioning for transsexual people - the costs are low if compared to many other things they do cover, and transitioning prevents many other problems (including suicide, but also lot's of psychological problems).

[spartasman]

I consider myself to be a relatively accepting person, but I simply cannot find sympathy for transgender people. It's not that I don't understand that they don't FEEL male/female, or that I am ignorant of the plethora of medical information pertaining to transgenderism; I simply Cannot disengage myself from the belief that the mere existence of a person who has been born a male/female, and who does not believe themselves to BE male/female, is an(and I do regret using this word, but I simply cannot conjure up one that I feel better suits the emotion) abomination.

Still, I would like to add that the 2% of people assaulted by doctors is rather shocking.

One of the major problem in the USA for transsexual people simply boils down to money. We all know the abyssal health care situation in the USA - it's even worse for transwomen/transmen. No insurance covers the costs of hormone treatment, surgery or other procedures, and just being transgendered (including interssexual) will make it almost impossible to get health insurance (even tough they don't cover it anyway).
The simple result is that transitioning is much, much harder. And due to the job discrimination, many transpeople just can't pay it out of their own pocket.

It is a very small section of the U.S. population(and indeed any population) that not only is transgender(in the sense that they believe themselves to be amongst the opposite sex) but who also undergo transgender surgeries.

[Ghost Rider]

I consider myself to be a relatively accepting person, but I simply cannot find sympathy for Transgender people. It's not that I don't understand that they don't FEEL male/female, or that I am ignorant of the plethora of medical information pertaining to Transgenderism; I simply Cannot disengage myself from the belief that the mere existence of a person who has been born a male/female, and who does not believe themselves to BE male/female, is an(and I do regret using this word, but I simply cannot conjure up one that I feel better suits the emotion) abomination.

Still, I would like to add that the 2% of people assaulted by doctors is rather shocking.

Are you so fucking ignorant of what you spewed or did you just not read anything you wrote down? I mean, abomination? Really, that's what you consider them?

Usually I do pride myself on seeing some of the low ends of the barrel, but thanks for demonstrating there's always lower.

[spartasman]

Are you so fucking ignorant of what you spewed or did you just not read anything you wrote down? I mean, abomination? Really, that's what you consider them?

Usually I do pride myself on seeing some of the low ends of the barrel, but thanks for demonstrating there's always lower.

I do believe I indicated that I regretted using the word.

I am not some ignorant hick/bible-thumper/whatever standard insult you think to churn out. I understand that trangendersim has been scientifically studied and proven to exist in some cases. What I do not understand, and indeed what I find to be abominable, is the culture, the mentality, that surrounds transgendersim.

There is a difference between a man who likes to wear a dress, and a man trapped in a woman's body. I will admit that the very existence of true transgenderism confuses me, but nature is not perfect and I refuse to hate something simply because it does not fit into my view of the way things should be.

How many amongst the transgender community are truly transgender. How many of them do you think are simply confused, or misled, or simply attempting to be 'non-conformist' or 'edgy'? I read a story a while back of a seven, SEVEN-YEAR OLD boy who was from Britain, who with the consent of his parents, was allowed to undergo surgery to 'become' a girl. Do you think that boy is going to grow up happy? Not because of the inevitable alienation that he will undergo, but because, at such a young age, before anyone has any right making decisions like that, he has irreparably changed himself.

When such a thing is possible, when such a thing is acceptable to a child's parents, when their are people who would call themselves doctors who would perform such surgeries, I cannot view transgenderism as anything less than an abomination.

[Ghost Rider]

Are you so fucking ignorant of what you spewed or did you just not read anything you wrote down? I mean, abomination? Really, that's what you consider them?

Usually I do pride myself on seeing some of the low ends of the barrel, but thanks for demonstrating there's always lower.

I do believe I indicated that I regretted using the word.

Meaningless drivel because there is no need to press submit. The board is owned space and you may as well said "I regret calling homosexuals as faggots."

I am not some ignorant hick/bible-thumper/whatever standard insult you think to churn out. I understand that trangendersim has been scientifically studied and proven to exist in some cases. What I do not understand, and indeed what I find to be abominable, is the culture, the mentality, that surrounds transgendersim.

I get that you're a fucking bigot, but that was evident from your initial post.

There is a difference between a man who likes to wear a dress, and a man trapped in a woman's body. I will admit that the very existence of true transgenderism confuses me, but nature is not perfect and I refuse to hate something simply because it does not fit into my view of the way things should be.

Do you have even the slightest fucking clue what abomination means?

You refuse to hate something but you label it as an object worthy of or causing disgust or hatred. Or do you have no fucking clue what that word you labeled people as even means?

How many amongst the transgender community are truly transgender. How many of them do you think are simply confused, or misled, or simply attempting to be 'non-conformist' or 'edgy'? I read a story a while back of a seven, SEVEN-YEAR OLD boy who was from Britain, who with the consent of his parents, was allowed to undergo surgery to 'become' a girl. Do you think that boy is going to grow up happy? Not because of the inevitable alienation that he will undergo, but because, at such a young age, before anyone has any right making decisions like that, he has irreparably changed himself.

Nice red herring.

When such a thing is possible, when such a thing is acceptable to a child's parents, when their are people who would call themselves doctors who would perform such surgeries, I cannot view transgenderism as anything less than an abomination.

So they are people who are to be scorned and reviled?

You are one fucked up puppy.

[Setzer]

If people want to get the surgery out of a desire to be trendy, that makes them idiotic, but not evil. I always saw the body as a collection of cells, to be modified however works best. If someone is born with a defective heart, I think they should replace it. If someone's brain and body are sending each other screwy signals, then that certainly should be changed. There's nothing inherently sacred about one's birth gender. So why not change it if it isn't working for you?

[Metahive]

I am not some ignorant hick/bible-thumper/whatever standard insult you think to churn out.

Well, I have a hard time believing that anyone would call transgender people "abominations" without a religious justification. That word expresses just way too much personal disgust for someone who claims that he's really just concerned about the well-being of people who might just be sexually confused.

How many amongst the transgender community are truly transgender. How many of them do you think are simply confused, or misled, or simply attempting to be 'non-conformist' or 'edgy'?

Is it any of your business what they are doing to their own bodies in any case? Do you think anyone should care about your personal standards of minimal societal conformity that everyone has to abide by lest he be labeled an "abomination"? Let me give it right back to you, "I'm 5'7", I've decided anyone taller than that is an abomination since I consider my own height the norm and I don't really belive tall people have really grown all that way by themselves, they're just taking growth hormones because they're simply confused, or misled or simply attempting to be "non-conformist" or "edgy""

And before you even think of doing it, don't try and go the "it's unnatural" route. If you do the very unnatural computer you're using to communicate with people world-wide will immediately self-destruct to keep you from being a hypocrite.

[Batman]

Are you so fucking ignorant of what you spewed or did you just not read anything you wrote down? I mean, abomination? Really, that's what you consider them? t hick/bible-thumper/whatever standard insult you think to churn out. I understand that trangendersim has been scientifically studied and proven to exist in some cases. What I do not understand, and indeed what I find to be abominable, is the culture, the mentality, that surrounds transgendersim.

Which is, essentially, a verbiose way of saying yes you are.

There is a difference between a man who likes to wear a dress, and a man trapped in a woman's body. I will admit that the very existence of true transgenderism confuses me, but nature is not perfect and I refuse to hate something simply because it does not fit into my view of the way things should be.

Except you just said you do. That's what finding something abominable means. 'Abominable' doesn't mean you don't understand it, it doesn't mean it makes you feel uncomfortable, it means it is something you feel should be purged. Preferably with fire.

How many amongst the transgender community are truly transgender. How many of them do you think are simply confused, or misled

Why does it matter? If they've decided they'd be happier being the other gender who are you to argue? Nothing personal but I very much suspect those people know WHY they are unhappy with their current gender a lot better than you do.

I read a story a while back of a seven, SEVEN-YEAR OLD boy who was from Britain, who with the consent of his parents, was allowed to undergo surgery to 'become' a girl. Do you think that boy is going to grow up happy?

Impossible to tell? Though THANKS to making the decision so early he might very well be spared a lot of the grief society tends to serve people who make that decision later in life thanks to it being, by then, long established that he IS a girl (yes, that was intentional).

Not because of the inevitable alienation that he will undergo, but because, at such a young age, before anyone has any right making decisions like that, he has irreparably changed himself.

Assuming you are right about the irreparable that would actually be a point.

When such a thing is possible, when such a thing is acceptable to a child's parents, when their are people who would call themselves doctors who would perform such surgeries, I cannot view transgenderism as anything less than an abomination.

And there you just went and torpedoed your own point. You're blithely assuming there's anything wrong with it to begin with.
There is something wrong with a 7 year old kid deciding to do something like that, because the kid very probably doesn't understand the consequences of that decision.
The problem isn't with the decision though. It's with a minor making it, and with the parents playing along. At age 7 I find it highly unlikely the child already knows wether or not he prefers girls, boys, alien space monsters, or whatnot, or what all the huffle is about to begin with.

[Metahive]

Parents foist all sorts of things upon their children when they're not yet old enough to understand, like religion. That does however not mean that religion is therefore abominable, but the potentially careless attitude of the parents is. I can't see that as justification to label transgender people "abominations". They're not going around and prodding people into undergoing sex-changes after all, but Spartasman almost makes it sound like it.
It also sounds suspiciously similar to arguments that bigots make against homosexual people.

[fgalkin]

Before you all jump on Spartasman and tear him apart, I would want to point out that up until a few years ago, I shared his reaction. Overcoming one's bigotry and opening one's mind takes a lot of effort, and as in most things, the first step is to admit that you have a problem. Someone could try actually educating spartasman about the issues, rather than merely flaming him to a crisp.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Ghost Rider]

Before you all jump on Spartasman and tear him apart, I would want to point out that up until a few years ago, I shared his reaction. Overcoming one's bigotry and opening one's mind takes a lot of effort, and as in most things, the first step is to admit that you have a problem. Someone could try actually educating spartasman about the issues, rather than merely flaming him to a crisp.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

But you weren't so stupid to actually express that in a topic like this. There's a world of difference to admitting to the issue and getting educated versus entering a thread about their suicide rates and the threats they live with before any operation and going "I feel nothing for them and they are monsters.".

[Metahive]

In my experience, when trying to make someone let go of his bigotries, it is effective to first show them that their bigotry does in fact elicit disgust and strong rejection and go for a more soft approach later. A splash of cold water to wake them properly up before the debate so to speak. I have found that a lot of bigots just don't realize that there's even any revulsion towards their follies and take a smooth approach as evidence that there isn't so much wrong with them after all.
If it's the general wish to go for a softer approach however then I will comply and soften my tone accordingly.

[Junghalli]

In my experience, when trying to make someone let go of his bigotries, it is effective to first show them that their bigotry does in fact elicit disgust and strong rejection and go for a more soft approach later.

Alternately when somebody insults me the first reaction I have is they're an asshole and I want to disagree with them just out of pride and spite. It's a habit I've learned to surpress somewhat on SDN as it got me a lot of grief early on. I suppose it depends on the person.

As far as spartasman's posts go, I tend to think that most transgender people probably are pretty sincere in their transgenderism, because look at all they shit they put up with because of it - I can hardly imagine many people putting up with that just to be "trendy" or whatever (same deal with homosexuals). I'm no expert on the matter though, of course.

[Metahive]

Well, but see, if you're forced to strongly defend your position and if the arguments brought forth against it weren't just mere flames, then you are pretty much compelled to reflect upon them, to think about just what mental justifications brought you to have a particular position and how well they hold up under scrutiny. If the challenged person is open to rational discourse, this has a good chance to positively influence them that way.
Yeah, it might also fail horribly and just cause the challenged person to leave the debate, but for just me personally that's a risk worth taking.

[Broomstick]

I am not some ignorant hick/bible-thumper/whatever standard insult you think to churn out. I understand that trangendersim has been scientifically studied and proven to exist in some cases. What I do not understand, and indeed what I find to be abominable, is the culture, the mentality, that surrounds transgendersim.

What is it that you find objectionable?

How many amongst the transgender community are truly transgender. How many of them do you think are simply confused, or misled, or simply attempting to be 'non-conformist' or 'edgy'?

Very few, actually. I think a lot of them are messed up because they have a problem that frequently makes them outcast and a focus of disgust. It sucks to live in a world that views you as an abomination, after all, and you're hardly the only one to hold that view.

I read a story a while back of a seven, SEVEN-YEAR OLD boy who was from Britain, who with the consent of his parents, was allowed to undergo surgery to 'become' a girl. Do you think that boy is going to grow up happy? Not because of the inevitable alienation that he will undergo, but because, at such a young age, before anyone has any right making decisions like that, he has irreparably changed himself.

If that is the same story I recall hearing about the boy did not actually have surgery. What was done was the administration of a drug to delay puberty until he was at least 18. It was not, in fact, a irreversible step. All that had to be done for him to resume normal male development was to stop taking the drug. Meanwhile, he is living as a girl. The purpose behind that is because physical transition is MUCH easier without going through male puberty with the increased hair, deeper voice, changes in bone structure, and so on. The idea being that no irrevocable changes would be made, or allowed to happen, until he was mentally an adult and able to give adult consent.

You see, if a person really is transgender they are just as transgender at 7 as at 70. If it really is an inborn thing, a birth defect as some would have it, then it really is present from birth. It's not something that suddenly pops up at puberty or in the 30's or whenever.

Is the child going to grow up happy? Do you realize that, so far as I know, not one transgender person has EVER grown up happy in their physical birth gender? Do you somehow think that ignoring this problem makes it go away? Do you think that these children are somehow NOT alienated? Forcing them to behave as something they're not doesn't cure anything, and while it may make the people around them happy it seems to universally make the transgendered miserable. Miserable enough to have a much higher suicide rate than anyone else.

When such a thing is possible, when such a thing is acceptable to a child's parents, when their are people who would call themselves doctors who would perform such surgeries, I cannot view transgenderism as anything less than an abomination.

Well, I can respect you for speaking your mind, although I must disagree with your feelings on the matter.

[Junghalli]

Well, but see, if you're forced to strongly defend your position and if the arguments brought forth against it weren't just mere flames, then you are pretty much compelled to reflect upon them, to think about just what mental justifications brought you to have a particular position and how well they hold up under scrutiny.

True, I do credit this effect with helping to change a lot of my beliefs over time.

[fgalkin]

Before you all jump on Spartasman and tear him apart, I would want to point out that up until a few years ago, I shared his reaction. Overcoming one's bigotry and opening one's mind takes a lot of effort, and as in most things, the first step is to admit that you have a problem. Someone could try actually educating spartasman about the issues, rather than merely flaming him to a crisp.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

But you weren't so stupid to actually express that in a topic like this. There's a world of difference to admitting to the issue and getting educated versus entering a thread about their suicide rates and the threats they live with before any operation and going "I feel nothing for them and they are monsters.".

I believe you've been too busy flaming him to understand. He explained that it is the "culture" that he finds abhorrent, and given his reasoning behind it. He happens to be extremely wrong about this, but that's not the point. The point is, he did not post in this thread saying "HUR HUR ALL TRANNIES BURN IN HELL!", but attempted to present arguments, and he deserves more than to be flamed.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Alyrium Denryle]

*cracks the knuckles*

I simply Cannot disengage myself from the belief that the mere existence of a person who has been born a male/female, and who does not believe themselves to BE male/female, is an(and I do regret using this word, but I simply cannot conjure up one that I feel better suits the emotion) abomination.

Neuroscience and Genetics for the terminally stupid 101

Humans are not a blank slate.

The regulatory cascade that creates your phenotype out of the presence or absence of the SRY gene on the Y chromosome is prone to errors or complex interactions between other regulatory cascades in various places along the chain.

These errors can cause problems in genital formation, as well as issues with the internal wiring of the brain.

Some areas of the brain are sexually dimorphic, meaning that for men and women, they are different.

If a few of these areas, specifically the ones relating to sexual attraction, are wired incorrectly, you get gay people, or bi people.

If MORE of them are wired incorrectly, you get Transpeople.

This is a very simple concept. It is very literally an instance of a man trapped in a woman's body, or vice versa. Culture has very little to do with this, other than the detail of what it MEANS to be a man or woman inside the culture in question. It is all neuroscience, pre-natal development, and genetics.

From this point on, i will attempt to be as magnanimous as possible.

How many amongst the transgender community are truly transgender. How many of them do you think are simply confused, or misled, or simply attempting to be 'non-conformist' or 'edgy'? I read a story a while back of a seven, SEVEN-YEAR OLD boy who was from Britain, who with the consent of his parents, was allowed to undergo surgery to 'become' a girl. Do you think that boy is going to grow up happy? Not because of the inevitable alienation that he will undergo, but because, at such a young age, before anyone has any right making decisions like that, he has irreparably changed himself.

OK. Little kids know more about themselves than you think. That little girl has a girls brain, and a trained psychiatrist can tell whether it is a case of being cool, or edgy, or actually being trans.

The benefits of an early transition are HUGE. No male puberty means no facial hair to have removed, no expensive bone-sculpting surgery, no awkward transition of pronoun use at work. All they have to do is start hormone therapy one summer and change schools. The kid will grow up fine, no teasing, nothing.

Speaking of teasing... WHY THE FUCK WOULD SOMEONE BE TRANS IN ORDER TO BE COOL OR EDGY?!

Do you have any fucking clue how hard it is to be trans? Many of them commit suicide because people treat them so badly. In TX, it may as well be illegal to BE trans in public.

When such a thing is possible, when such a thing is acceptable to a child's parents, when their are people who would call themselves doctors who would perform such surgeries, I cannot view transgenderism as anything less than an abomination.

And you say this from your vast amount medical knowledge and personal relationships with transpeople? Hmm? The kid knows what she is. Fuck, my mom knew I was gay when I was NINE. In an accepting environment, where the kid is not made to hide who and what they are due to shame, they know who they are better than anyone else. Yes. Even at the age of seven. The wonderful part is, up until GRS, everything is fully reversible. The body is cool like that.

[Serafina]

How many amongst the transgender community are truly transgender. How many of them do you think are simply confused, or misled, or simply attempting to be 'non-conformist' or 'edgy'? I read a story a while back of a seven, SEVEN-YEAR OLD boy who was from Britain, who with the consent of his parents, was allowed to undergo surgery to 'become' a girl. Do you think that boy is going to grow up happy? Not because of the inevitable alienation that he will undergo, but because, at such a young age, before anyone has any right making decisions like that, he has irreparably changed himself.

First of all, you are BORN transsexual. So he didn't "change himself" (that should be herself) any more than if she had done it later in her life, only that she doesn't have to deal with any of the effects of male puberty.
Second, whenever you read someone getting sex reassignment surgery at such a young age, you can be damn sure the author of the article doesn't know what he is talking about. At an age of seven, you wouldn't even start the (much more important) hormone replacement therapy. So it's very likely that you were just reading a story written by an ignoramus - when all that happened is that that girl started to see a therapist and was allowed to live as a girl. The medical procedures will happen later on - HRT when she is about to hit puberty and SRS at about age 16 or later. So even if it's just a childhood gender identity disorder (which any responsible therapist would try to rule out), she has time to notice that before anything permanent happens. So it's just the best damn thing that could happen to that girl either way - if she is transsexual (which is likely), she doesn't have to deal with any physical problems other than her genitals, which can be fixed easily. If she is not, then nothing bad will happen.

How many amongst the transgender community are truly transgender. How many of them do you think are simply confused, or misled, or simply attempting to be 'non-conformist' or 'edgy'?

Bigot status: confirmed
Or at the very least, you are extremely clueless.
You won't get any of the medical procedures "just because you want to be trendy". In order to get them, you are required to see a psychologist/psychiatrist first - do you think a medical professional would put you trough such procedures "just because"?
Besides, it's actually very simple: If you CAN live happily (and not just pretend to) as a certain gender (and not just pretend for a few hours), then you ARE of that gender. A person who would undergo treatment for transsexual people "just because" would have the same problems as a transsexual person before transitioning - a conflict between actual gender and lived gender role. Which is why to odds that anyone would go as far as SRS without being transsexual are practically zero.
In Germany, there were only two people (out of several thousand) who ever stepped back from living as women after they had their hormone treatment, and it's likely that they did so due to social pressure and not entirely voluntarily, because it was about two-three decades ago) NO ONE did that after the surgery. This data is based on the amount of name changes and birth certificate changes (two separate steps) which have been revoked because the person in question wanted to - the surgery is a requirement for the latter, and no one ever tried to get it revoked AFAIK.
So your point is pretty ignorant and plain and simply WRONG

But EVEN IF someone truly wasn't transsexual and underwent all that medical and psychological treatment - what's your problem with that? If they are happy that way (as i said, that would indicate that they are transsexual, so it's purely hypothetical), what's wrong with it?

Yes, the term "transgender" also incorporates cross-dressers and transvestites and many other gender expressions. But none of those get or want or need any medical treatment and have little to nothing to do with transsexual people.


Now, what i truly have a problem with is that you think ANYONE could WANT to be transsexual, no less for such as flimsy reason as "being edgy". That pretty much demonstrates that you are UTTERLY IGNORANT about the consequences of being trans.

I already mentioned the basic problem. If you brain is not female, then you won't be able to live a female life happily - you will have the same problems as a transman (female-to-male). If your brain is not male, then you won't be able to live a male life happily - you will have the same problems as a transwoman (male to female). And those problems are enormous. Since it's hard to imagine if you are not in that situation, try the following:
You have to pretend, play act, your entire life. Not just lying about one little thing, but all the time, about everything. Your desires, your feelings, your standing towards others, your social role and so on and so on - you have to pretend that you are someone who you are not, and someone who is almost the exact opposite, too.
And that's just one part of the problem transsexual people have.
Do you REALLY think someone could voluntarily inflict that on himself - which is what you would do if you underwent transsexual treatment without being transsexual.

Now, the social problems. Being transsexual is NOT COOL. It's NOT EDGY.
Even in the most tolerant environment, you will still have to deal with a lot of problems - some people will feel alienated, most will have some trouble changing their minds about you if they know you for a long time. If you are not in an extremely tolerant environment, it gets worse - much worse.
In the USA, being transsexual means that you are about 20 times as likely to be a murder victim. In most states, employers can reject or fire you as they wish. Before the health care reform passed, your chances of getting any health care were almost non-existent.
A large amount of people would shun you if they notice that you are transsexual - even within the gay community. About the only place where you don't have to fear being an outcast is the transsexual "community" - it's about as much as of an community as the "cancer patient community" - you have one thing in common, but that doesn't automatically make you a real community.

Now - do you think ANYONE would voluntarily try to be transsexual (without having a severe mental illness such as certain forms of schizophrenia)?


Understand this:
Being transsexual is not a choice. No one could make that choice any more than you would make a choice to cut off a perfectly healthy limb. You either are it from birth, or you aren't - just like you are (mentally) a boy or a girl from birth.
Your IGNORANCE doesn't give you ANY right to call anyone an abomination. You can NOT look inside peoples heads - what right do you have to claim that a 7-year old girl is really just trying to be cool, instead of being transsexual? She has likely been checked by several professional therapists (as is anyone who is transsexual) - what right do you have to proclaim more knowledge than medical professionals, without any knowledge beyond some online article?

Don't mix up the words "transgender" and transsexual. The two are TWO DIFFERENT THINGS, even tough transsexual is often put under the umbrella term "transgender". Transgender actually is a lifestyle, tough typically one that's very deeply ingrained in one's personality and not just done on a whim. But that doesn't give you the right to call those people abominations.
Transsexual is not a lifestyle, but simply having a female brain in a male body or vice versa. You have as much of a right of calling transsexual people abominations as you do with amputees.

[Setzer]

Wait, so Transgendered is when men act like women or vice versa, while Transsexuals are a case of the brain and body legitimately being different?

[Alyrium Denryle]

Wait, so Transgendered is when men act like women or vice versa, while Transsexuals are a case of the brain and body legitimately being different?

It is a matter of degree. A sliding scale of brain differentiation fuckup.

[Serafina]

Wait, so Transgendered is when men act like women or vice versa, while Transsexuals are a case of the brain and body legitimately being different?

Basically, "transgender" is an umbrella term for everything that deviates from the standard body/personality perception as far as gender goes.

Transsexual is a classified medical condition. I think it's already explained well enough elsewhere, so i won't waste time here. Basically, a transwoman has a genuine female personality and gender identity, but a male body, and vice versa for transmen.

Cross-Dressing and Transvestism (nearly the same thing) basically means that you enjoy wearing female clothing and maybe pretending to be female. You live most of your life as male, identify yourself as male etc. Basically, it's almost a specific type of cosplaying/roleplaying.
The term is usually not used for women who dress in mens clothes, mostly because that's well-accepted in our society.

Drag queens and Drag kings basically cross-dress as part of a performance and not in their private life.

Androgyny means that you have both female and male traits in your outward appearance and perhaps in your personality as well. Note that this typically does not qualify as transsexuality - a male androgyne person will still identify as male, and while he can comfortably life as a "pure male", he can't comfortable life as a "pure female" (without male traits).
Note that this term often includes just looking that way naturally, it doesn't have to be deliberate.

Genderqueer is more or less another gender term. Basically, it refers to any unusual combination of gender identity and sexual orientation. A draq-king femme lesbian could be called gender-queer, or a lesbian male (yes, there is such a thing), or any other "odd" combination.


Note that transgender (excluding transsexuality) is not something you are born with. It can still be an integral part of your personality (it often is with gender-queer or crossdressing), and in some cases it might be an attempt to deal with genuine transsexuality. Unless this is the case, you won't find any differences in the brain like you do with transsexuality, and it (almost always) doesn't include any need to alter your body according to your gender identity.


Bottom line:
Gender identity and expression is COMPLICATED.
Transgender is a term for anything that deviates from our standard western perception of gender identity. As such, it (somewhat incorrectly) includes transsexuality, but transsexuality is a genuine medical condition caused by nature, while transgender is an expression of personality caused by nurture.

There is no reason to shun transgender-people, unless you are particularly close-minded. It doesn't harm anyone, and they are just as functional in a society as "normal" people. Also, tolerance towards transgender-expression is closely related to tolerance towards transsexual and homosexual people.

It is a matter of degree. A sliding scale of brain differentiation fuckup.

Actually, i would disagree with that. Or rather, i claim that they have different causes:
Transsexuality means that you are born with a brain with a gender identity that doesn't match your bodies sex.
Transgender means that you have developed gender traits that do not match with your bodies sex and gender identity.

[SilverWingedSeraph]

Note that transgender (excluding transsexuality) is not something you are born with. It can still be an integral part of your personality (it often is with gender-queer or crossdressing), and in some cases it might be an attempt to deal with genuine transsexuality. Unless this is the case, you won't find any differences in the brain like you do with transsexuality, and it (almost always) doesn't include any need to alter your body according to your gender identity.

Evidence for this claim? You are claiming that transexuality is the only sort of gender identity oddness that has a genetic and/or biological source, and that's a pretty bold claim if you don't have any evidence to support it. If such evidence exists I would like to see it. Because near as I can tell, all it takes is for a few small sexually-dimorphic different parts of the brain to express themselves as the wrong gender to result in a gender identity conflict that's not outright transexual. There are people who identify equally with both genders. They're not entirely comfortable with their body as a result, but are also uncomfortable with the idea of undergoing SRS for that exact same reason. Are you outright stating that couldn't possibly have any biological basis, or be affected by the formation of the brain?

[Marcus Aurelius]

It is a matter of degree. A sliding scale of brain differentiation fuckup.

Actually, i would disagree with that. Or rather, i claim that they have different causes:
Transsexuality means that you are born with a brain with a gender identity that doesn't match your bodies sex.
Transgender means that you have developed gender traits that do not match with your bodies sex and gender identity.

Well, what evidence do you have that transgender traits are developed or learned behavior rather than biologically determined? I think the theory presented by Alyrium sounds more convinving, since there is no a priori reason to believe that only true transsexuality is biologically determined and transgender traits are learned wholly or even primarily. The of course there are many behavioral traits that can be only partially biologically determined, so perhaps if a person lives in a society where gender roles are strictly defined and transgender behavior socially unacceptable, he or she never shows the transgender tendency, but in a more free society it would show.