How? The Ork will fight them whenever they see them regardless, so that can't be a reason.
The power of an ork invasion is directly proportionate to the ability of the enemy to fight back.
Hence, as long as the Tau are less of a challenge than the IOM forces in the same area they will not be chosen as a prime target. As they grow in strength, they will attract more ork raids and become more well known among the orks. You can picture the rest.
The Tyranids just look for a source of biomass, which will happen regardless, so that can't be a reason,
The likelihood of a Tyranid invasion is directly proportionate to the amount of bio mass the target can give them.
Hence, as long as the Tau are less of a meal than the IOM forces in the same area they will not be chosen as a prime target. As they grow in numbers, they will attract more hungry critters. You can picture the rest.
and the Imperium is too tied up fighting everyone else to destroy the Tau. Where are all of these forces going to come from to kill them?
As they grow in strength, they will attract more attention from the IOM and increase the chance that some minor space marine chapter or some Inquisitor will want to kill them to add another notch into his record. You can picture the rest.
How will increasing technology and remaining about the same size hurt them? Would they start to have massive losses if they say.. became decent at close combat due to more compact weaponry with equal power?
Because you can't level up technology significantly without growing. Sure they can develop within the order of magnitude they are now but eventually they will need to expand to acquire more resources. And than they will attract attention.
My argument has to do with their far future thou, something like 500-1000 years in the future.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.
You win. There, I have said it.
Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
The power of an ork invasion is directly proportionate to the ability of the enemy to fight back.
The likelihood of a Tyranid invasion is directly proportionate to the amount of bio mass the target can give them.
As they grow in strength, they will attract more attention from the IOM and increase the chance that some minor space marine chapter or some Inquisitor will want to kill them to add another notch into his record.
So that status quo is going to be preserved regardless of how large or small they are? That seems to be the implication of what you're saying. Which we already knew anyway.
Because you can't level up technology significantly without growing. Sure they can develop within the order of magnitude they are now but eventually they will need to expand to acquire more resources. And than they will attract attention.
If their technology increases by an order of magnitude ("tech level" is a meaningless term, but whatever) then they would be, pound for pound, the undisputed lords and masters of all warfare and essentially untouchable save for being massively outnumbered by their opponents. An order of magnitude better means 10x better, approximately.
That's just taking your claim at face value. It's not like there's any evidence suggesting that you need to be huge to become advanced - the massive IoM has rough technological parity with the Tau, and the Tau were trapped inside a few tiny solar system for most of their history by a warp storm.
A scientist once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the Earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the centre of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy.
At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: 'What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise.
The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, 'What is the tortoise standing on?'
'You're very clever, young man, very clever,' said the old lady. 'But it's turtles all the way down.'
Chaotic Neutral wrote:They are limited in their expansion, but not in development, they can still advance in science, which they will then use to advance in the physical sense.
It's questionable whether physical size and technological growth can be decoupled like that. If nothing else, physical expansion means a bigger population base to draw scientists from.
Talk738kno wrote:You know that the IOM isn't just sitting ididly while the tau are doing there thing, the Ad mech is working hard on reverse engineering Tau tech as well.
For example they have already made a version of Tau's stealth field generator that is man portable
Talk738kno wrote:You know that the IOM isn't just sitting ididly while the tau are doing there thing, the Ad mech is working hard on reverse engineering Tau tech as well.
For example they have already made a version of Tau's stealth field generator that is man portable
Where the hell did they do that?
Deathwatch.
The Excellent Prismatic Spray. For when you absolutely, positively must kill a motherfucker. Accept no substitutions. Contact a magician of the later Aeons for details. Some conditions may apply.
Talk738kno wrote:You know that the IOM isn't just sitting ididly while the tau are doing there thing, the Ad mech is working hard on reverse engineering Tau tech as well.
For example they have already made a version of Tau's stealth field generator that is man portable
Where the hell did they do that?
Deathwatch.
If I recall correctly Imperium already had the ability to cloak a five metre shuttle in Kill Team.
By the way on which page is that piece of fluff in the Deathwatch.
Also here's something interesting from new Dark Eldar codex,GW seems to love to make Tau look as completely stupid as they did when they met Necrons and threw party for them.
The Dark Eldar first encountered the Tau at the end of the 41st millenium as further tendrils of Kraken virtually surrounded the Empire. The Tau could not afford another 'Gorgon' so they began hiring any species to help them "Damn the consequences".
Urien Rakarth contacted High Command the Tau were more than willing to parley. Rakarth offerred to join in repelling the Tyranids for what he called 'cultural exchange'. Despite his appearance in the appearance of his minions, the Tau reasoned that they had already hired the Kroot so why not. Especially when, despite appearances, the Dark Eldar held a lordly presence and the Tyranids seemed like a minor threat to them.
And so the Fire Caste joined with the Prophets of Flesh.
Over the 'hyper verdant' world of Vigos Kraken and Tau fought the fiercest. The Dark Eldar descended, shock troops impervious to pain and got into it with the Nids allowing for a retreat by the Tau who were reinforced by nearby Rubikon (noted to be pristine).
"THE PATH TO DAMNATION" Rakarth insists that the exchange takes place and asks for seventy seven tau from each caste lead by 7 ethereals. The Tau deem this last part unacceptable, but volunteers from the other castes go, Mantas carrying them into a sky portal. No one knows what happened to them.
The next phase on Vigos was the counter attack, reclaiming the polar continent from the Nids. The Fire Caste enjoyed victory after victory as Grotesques worked in perfect congress with battlesuits to eradicate the enemy. however, at the end of the sixth day of battle vid-captures from drones showed these new grotesques had a blue grey coloration all to familiar.
All to late, the Tau realize what had happend, Rakarth again appears and demands the Ethereals or seven thousand and seventy seven other Tau in their place. High Command responds with an attack but the Dark Eldar disappear.
They reappear attacking Rubikon now bereft of defenders. O'Shaev, the planets assumed leading Shas, begs for help. Asdrubael Vect himself arrives on Rubikon, leading the carnage. By the time Tau reinforcements arrive the Kroot and Vespid allies have all been killed and arranged into mass graves while every single Tau citizen is gone.
Oh, okay, so it's basically so rare as to be irrelevant, then.
One could say the same thing about the Tau Empire with its total population of less than a large hive world.
It's new tech. Of course its rare. The relevant part is that its new tech and the little detail that the guys who are likely to be using it are Deathwatch kill teams who might be tasked with such irrelevant orders as head hunting Ethereals and Fire Caste leaders.
The Excellent Prismatic Spray. For when you absolutely, positively must kill a motherfucker. Accept no substitutions. Contact a magician of the later Aeons for details. Some conditions may apply.
Imperial Overlord wrote:
One could say the same thing about the Tau Empire with its total population of less than a large hive world.
It there a list with all of the races populations and territories? That seems awfully small.
It's from Kill Team. And its not small when you consider that the Tau don't seem go for densely populated settlements, a large Imperial Hive world have a population of five hundred billion, and somewhere between (last I heard) a few dozen and a few score planets. For example, forty planets with a population of two billion each is merely eighty billion. Even two hundred worlds with an average population of two billion is smaller population than some hive worlds.
The Excellent Prismatic Spray. For when you absolutely, positively must kill a motherfucker. Accept no substitutions. Contact a magician of the later Aeons for details. Some conditions may apply.
One must also note that the denizens of many Hive Worlds spend most of their lives trying to survive in squalor and fighting off underhive gangs, whereas (at least in theory) all Tau citizens are expected to be productive in someway (hence, y'know, the 'Greater Good')
"No, no, no, no! Light speed's too slow! Yes, we're gonna have to go right to... Ludicrous speed!"
RecklessPrudence wrote:We have canonical evidence of Kroot being corrupted (3rd ed Tau Codex has 'bad things' happening if they eat the corpses of even Chaos Cultists, to the point that the Tau burn them, which has led to conflicts with some Kroot, IIRC), and Tau do have a connection to the warp, it's just very faint compared to even normal humans. Hell, we even have at least one Tau who, over the course of several days, became irretrievably corrupted and committed suicide (again, IIRC).
That was a White Dwarf article, as I recall. But given the Kroot's fast absorption of genetic material, them being effected makes sense. Another article has them being similarly wary of eating Tyranid flesh.
Shas'la Kais, the protagonist of Fire Warrior (both game and book), was corrupted by a Khornate daemon during about three days' hard fighting. He found himself becoming more bloodthirsty and eager for battle, and only realised what was happening when it was almost too late to have any free will left at all. Daemons can possess Tau, it's just not usually worth the effort, as they have to try significantly harder than for the easy prey they usually prefer.
Using that Chaos Marine bolter and ammo wasn't so smart after all, was it, Kais? (not that he should have been able to, but there is at least a little evidence that Tau carapace armour has minor power-assists in it, I think?)
It should be noted that Kais was also the only Tau out of that entire battlegroup that could be corrupted. Assuming that he wasn't unique in that regard, that's like one out of thousands.
The Tau's position in the story is the Growing Threat. Unlike all the other the mature threats that the Imperium always "barely" holds out against, the Tau could be destroyed by the Imperium if they could muster the forces to do so, but they can't. Their hands are full with all the big threats, and here's this rash in a place they can't reach. A rash that, in time, will likely become a malignant tumor. Rather than the "If they can get their act together, we're doomed!" of the other enemies, the Tau are more like "If wecan't get our act together, we doomed!"
Not an armored Jigglypuff
"I salute your genetic superiority, now Get off my planet!!" -- Adam Stiener, 1st Somerset Strikers
Srelex wrote:One must also note that the denizens of many Hive Worlds spend most of their lives trying to survive in squalor and fighting off underhive gangs,
Most people in Hives live in the middle hive, what you are talking about is the underhive. and people in the middle hive have a standard of living on par with lower end of first world countries.
Well as far as the original question. Depends on the gun, since they exist in both space and on the ground. In space we have nothing other than "hyper velocity", which can mean anything from single double digit to just under relativistic (which itself is not a preciesly defined term either.) but that doesnt tell us much. We might infer from weapons ranges to an extent, but I'm not going to speculate here. I'd expect them to be at least as fast as 40K projectiles though.
Ground combat: We don't know. Again hypervelocity and hypersonic have both been used to describe them, but that just tells us they'd be at least as fast, or faster than modern tank weapons (close to or over several km/s at least.) It could be faster, but I will point out speed is not neccesaril a be all, end-all as far as penetration goes (indeed hypervelocity impacts can introduce the possibility of cratering, which while increasing damage redues penetration and penetration typically matters alot for tank guns.)
In the case of the Hammerhead railgun specifically, it is consistnetly noted to perform better than conventional battle cannon (but not neccesarily Vanquisher cannon, and is ins ome ways outperformed by Earthshakers) and be highly effective at penetrating Russ armor. I tend not to read too deeply into the "punch a hole in and liquify everything inside it" since its quite possible that the physics behind that is unrealistic (we'd be talking a massive shockwave to do it, and prboabl knocking the tank around with some violent accelerations.)
I'm not even going to touch on game mechanics.
Andy Hoare: Like alot of 40K writers, he has his good moments and bad moments. the Rogue trader novels are his bad moments. Basically his version of Soul Drinkers. HE does write decent stuff though (Hunt for Voldorius was mentioned, and he had a hand in the 13th Black Crusade and Tactica Imperialis big books, which were both interesting reading. And he's written some decent short stories like Hunter, Prey.) Graham McNeill has Honsou and "Dead Sky, Black Sun" to his name. Abnett has his own lackluster showings (Legion, Straight Silver, etc.) Goto has Eldar Prophecy (which is to date the worst 40K novel I've read.) and there is of course Ben "liquid plasma" Counter who is consistently hit and miss.
Anyhow, the Rogue Trader novels have their annoyances, but then again lots of novels do (I get tird of Abnett making laser bullet weapons.)
Tau tactics and technology: And in particular how it stacks up to the Imperium, can be summed up in one word. Consistency. That is their big edge ove the Imperium really. It's not so much that they are all-around better, per se (because they aren't), its that they manage to standardize their tech and gear better, and to apply it more consistently. They are more unified, and more focused, and tend not to be as distracted as the Imperium is (partly a result of how they are organized, partly because of their small size, and partly because they're on the ass end of nowhere and tend to only catch the backlash from other major powers conflicts.) Their sensitivity to causalties (much like what the US has with its citizen soldiers) will lead to more upteching (pursuant to tactics and presumably logistics.) Also, your average Fire Warrior is probably more in line with a Storm Trooper, while auxiliaries are either specialists or the more expendable grunts (and aren't neccesarily as well teched, but could be more numerous.) Of course, Guard "quality" varies dramatically as well (logistics, planet of origin, standing/importance of the tithe, etc.)
Tau tech can, I suspect, vary quite a bit in performance, which may account for the variable performance. Tau armor could be upgraded by stronger plates (and thus be as good as flak or better depending on how configured) but this may have drawbacks (greater weight, which reduces mobility.) In some cases the Tau probably want greater protection, but not in all cases.
Pulse weapons probably have similar issues. It is unlikely there is just ONE kind of pulse weapon, any more than there is one kind of assautl rifle, or lasgun, or bolter. (and I mean more than just the "pulse rifle and pulse carbine.) We know pulse rifles as a rule are better than lasguns at least in terms of per shot firepower and range, but that doesn't mean "all around" better. Range will mean that they either behave like a semi-auto rifle (aimed shots) or as a machine gun (spray and pray.)
The former is more along the lines of Tau tactics. Setting may also play a role in firepower (It isn't impossible for a pulse weapon to exceed the destructive output of a bolter, although quanitfying the comparison is a bit complex methinks.) but it needn't apply in all cases (Arguably, it doesn't. hell, Bolter firepower can vary quite a bit on its own, so better has to be reflected in that context as well.)
Tactics wise, again consistecny seems to matter. The Imperium doesnt really have a defined set of tactics despite what some claim (either way) but they embrace a little bit of everything. This is a bit of a problem, since they tend to leave it up to individual commanders to decide, and this can create wildly varying effects (from intelligent fighting to not so intelligent "choke them with our numbers" Brannigan-style.) The Imperium can (to an extent) afford this though, since they are a large, industrious empire. The Tau are industrious, but they aren't numerous, and their tactics must reflect this. I suspect alot of the earlier "codex" thinking I have commented on from the previous Tau Codexes are their version of the "tactica Imperialis/Uplifting Primer/Munitorum guidelines" bits.. basically thats "theoretical" stuff laid down by their adminstration. In practice, like with the Imperium, capability can vary according to the leader they have (Taros illustrates this nicely) since some Commanders clearly are brilliant and others, less so. The "less so" however will beneift from a more consistent (and cautious) doctrine that emphasize mobility and firepower (which their tech base can support, to an extent), so any shortcomings are liekly mitigated (assuming numbers aren't a factor.)
Later stuff to come out so far in 5th edition (Planetstrike and such) have hinted the Tau are proving more willing to adopt their basic tactics (as laid down in earlier codexes) to other concepts - they follow the "abandoning territory no matter what" philosohpy alot less blindly, for example. They still hate static warfare, and probably arne't as good at it, but they will do it if they NEED to (and still incoroprate the elements of their other doctrines if they can.)
You also have to remember that being on the edge of the galaxy, they tend to be hard to reach by many conventional powers and they also face a huge logistical advantage compared to others (say the Imperium, especialyl since the Astronomican problems cropped up with the edges of the Empire.) Supply lines (and information) have often been a problem the Imperium faces in fighting the tau, and location plays a huge role in that.
As an aside, I dont draw any particular significance from stuff about the tau "sterilizing" humans - I now expect the tau to contain their own share of assholes like the Imperium does. The Imperium has good and bad people too.
Lasgun/bolter/Hellgun vs Pulse rifle
The biggest advantages (as far as we know evidence wise) that the Lasguns will have will be reliability and durability, sheer versatility, and [possibly] rate of fire and ammo. The first is a no-brainer, given how easy to build and repair lasguns can be. They also are doubtless easier to train folk on as far as usage and maintenance go. Versatility is not quite so obvious, and refers to the tendency for lasguns to encompass many different variants, to be modular (long las, or las carbines being modified lasguns, as well as long and short barreled lasguns, assault lasguns, etc.) and can have differing performance (power output, range, etc.) by something as simple as changing a barrel and sights (range/accuracy) or powerpack (using hotshots, which even normal lasgun can do.) But lasguns can have variable modes too (wide beam "flamethrower/shotgun" modes, like in Legion, or sustained piercing/cutting/slicing beams, as well as the thermal/explosive modes.) As far as Rate of fire goes? Lasgun ROF form a few shots a sec (uplifting primer) to tens/hundreds of shots a second (Blood Pact, Only in Death and 13th Legion novels, to name a few examples) and I've never heard of pulse weapons matching that. Ammo usage can also vary from as fwe as 40-50 shots per powerpack (depending on setting) to hundreds, whilst I havent heard pulse rifles being much more than the 40-50 shot category (agian setting matters, but still..)
Hellguns by extension ought to share the versatility and ammo/rate of fire advantage. They may be similiar in performance to bolters and pulse weapons though (As I said, it can depend on alot.
Bolters are phyiscal projectiles, so they have explosive eccect with kinetic effects to contend with. This could give them better penetration. (remember Space Marine bolters arguably can be anti-vehicle weapons consistently. I dont think the same can always be said of pulse rifles) Bolters though are basically meant to be fired by power armored troops, so they would lack alot of advantages wielded by anyone else (lacking stocks for one thing, but also targeter sights and similar.) And yes this is ignoring the whole "how bolters work" angle (which is "not how GW envisions them")
Orbital Bombardment While it is a huge asset, I DO have to point out that even if you disregard GT+ firepower for Imperial ships, the energy release of orbital bombardment can do Bad Things to the surface and climate of a planet in the long term. How is it going to effect climate and weather patterns to consistently inject kilotons or megatons of energy via bombardment (which we know the Imperium has done), especially over some of the longer and more protracted ground wars? (Of course that tends to be a central grimdark feature of 40K anyhow and often comes about from overuse of conventional artillery and gas/chemical weapons or bioweapons rather than just nukes. ) But it could still be a cause for concern on some worlds (say, Agri-worlds) but not others (the older and more populous Hive worlds)
Space Marine Tactics I can't believe this is being discussed. First off, lets remember that there are several differnet kinds of marines: Tactical, Assault (the close in SPECIALISTS and the ones who carry a hand weapon more commonly) and Devastators (the ones with the huge ass guns). Tactical marines are more multipuprose but tend to focus on range - the only close in weapon they get is a combat knife (which isn't different from modern troops.) Assault Marines are specialists who have rocket packs to allow them to get close (shock and terror effect, which probably explains the chainswords.).
Yes, Marines do charge in situations but they also have the physiology and armor to generally pull it off (and doing that will carry a huge psychological effect against some enemies.) but we also know that Marines HAVE (and often employ) diverse means of deployment that quite often can get them close to an enemy: Drop ships, thunderhawks, Rhinos, teleporters, etc. (Assault on Black Reach when Sicarius dropped right into the midst of an Ork invasion force via drop pod.)
I don't pay much serious attention to artwork, at least when it comes to scaling. The calibers I get for some weapons doing that (even non artwork diagrams, which often are based on the mdoels) gives me a headache.
Oh, and Thaddeus does manage (barely, and somehow) to fire the Soul Drinkers bolt pistol as I recall, so they cna't be that big/heavy/unwieldy.
Tau in general: I think its worth noting that we can distinguish between in and out universe at least when it comes to Tau "wanking." The tau by themselves are fine. Its the fanboys (And arguably this can include some authors, but then again that can be said of alot of factions in 40K too.. Goto seemed to hte the Eldar for example and there ar always the pro Space Marine authors who can be grating..) Its the fanboys who tend to elicit the most negative reactions when it comes to the tau. Personally I hate tau fanboys, but the tau themselves aren't too bad (tactics masturbation wise they've changed a bit with more recent editions too, which I'll touch on later.)
In universe the Tau surviving can be attributed to luck (which can be tangible, if weird. and it has been hinted tau survival has been deliberately contrived in universe by someone) and the fact they are way out on the ass end of nowhere (and thus either hard for other powers to crush, or end up conflicting with one of the larger powers like the Imperium, who often seem to provide a buffer to the tau.) This is counterbalanced by their combined arrogance and blind adherence to their manifest destin- err Greater Good, coupled with sheer naivety when it comes to the universe at large (Take Chaos for example. I dont know if they've actually admitted Chaos Gods, Chaos, and daemons exist yet. And as we know historically that is a recipe for disaster sooner or later, and the Tau having a minimal presence in the warp cannot wholly mitigate that.)
That can be (And has been) skewed by the fanboy angle (like other parts of 40K - the tau aren't the only one to 'benefit' from that.) and thus lead to the antipathy.
I'm not going to bother going over space engagement ranges, acceleration/velocities, or stuff like that since I've brought that up before.
Connor MacLeod wrote:I tend not to read too deeply into the "punch a hole in and liquify everything inside it" since its quite possible that the physics behind that is unrealistic
What I read in the tau codex talked about the shot puncturing the hull with a clean tiny hole and then keep boring through anything with a tiny hole, and then exiting from the opposite side of the hull.
Then they say that everything not firmly secured and all crewmembers were sucked out of the latter hull hole (and extruded in the process).
I always thought this kind of effect is kinda weird and unrealistic for a projectile travelling at any speed.
Personally I think it is an energy weapon, like a beefed up pulse rifle.
I'm nobody. Nobody at all. But the secrets of the universe don't mind. They reveal themselves to nobodies who care. -- Stereotypical spacecraft are pressurized. Less realistic spacecraft are pressurized to hold breathing atmosphere. Realistic spacecraft are pressurized because they are flying propellant tanks. -Isaac Kuo -- Good art has function as well as form. I hesitate to spend more than $50 on decorations of any kind unless they can be used to pummel an intruder into submission. -Sriad
By the way on which page is that piece of fluff in the Deathwatch.
It's an piece of equipment, listed under armor and called a Masking Screen. Basically, it works like a Tau Stealth suit, but isn't completely unidirectional and is therefore slightly imposing on the users perception as well. On the other hand, it is very lightweight (about half a kilogram) and small, so it might actually be superior to the Tau version in certain ways.
Deathwatch also contains other new technology, such as a time dilation field which speeds up the user, but can only be used in short burst with a long recharge and not in combination with regular forcefields. Or a tracking device that can track starships over interstellar distances.
SoS:NBAGALE Force "Destiny and fate are for those too weak to forge their own futures. Where we are 'supposed' to be is irrelevent." - Sir Nitram
"The world owes you nothing but painful lessons" - CaptainChewbacca
"The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one." - Wilhelm Stekel
"In 1969 it was easier to send a man to the Moon than to have the public accept a homosexual" - Broomstick Divine Administration - of Gods and Bureaucracy (Worm/Exalted)
One the thing that bugs me is the plausible way to explain Tau rapid advancment which happened over 6k years and the level at which they are and which took humans tens of thousand years to achieve.
IvanTih wrote:One the thing that bugs me is the plausible way to explain Tau rapid advancment which happened over 6k years and the level at which they are and which took humans tens of thousand years to achieve.
That's because they are NOT at the same level as humanity.
Yes, their weapons are really quite good - but it's more a matter of design than technology. The IoM can construct weapons, armor, forcefields and so on just as good as those of the Tau. The lasgun is designed to be a technologically simple, robust, low-logistic weapon - but the IoM can also build Bolters or Hellguns.
A suit of battle armor might be better than a suit of power armor, but it's also significantly larger. With an equivalent size increase, the IoM could also build a set of Terminator Armor with a Jump Pack - and they already have that for power armor.
The IoM once had technology to craft fully sentient machines, and they can still build machine spirits that are about as good as Tau drones.
But the IoM has a lot of technology the Tau could not replicated. For example, conversion beamers are more advanced than anything the Tau have. They also lack all of the IoMs warp technology.
The point is that the Tau are not more technologically advanced than the IoM - they are more capable of fielding their high-end stuff, but what you actually see IS their high-end stuff - while the IoM is mostly using simpler technology.
SoS:NBAGALE Force "Destiny and fate are for those too weak to forge their own futures. Where we are 'supposed' to be is irrelevent." - Sir Nitram
"The world owes you nothing but painful lessons" - CaptainChewbacca
"The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one." - Wilhelm Stekel
"In 1969 it was easier to send a man to the Moon than to have the public accept a homosexual" - Broomstick Divine Administration - of Gods and Bureaucracy (Worm/Exalted)
IvanTih wrote:One the thing that bugs me is the plausible way to explain Tau rapid advancment which happened over 6k years and the level at which they are and which took humans tens of thousand years to achieve.
I would imagine that the Grimdark insane theocracy and tech regression elements in the Imperium play into it. After all, their tech has basically been regressing for the last 10,000+ years.
Although one could argue that the Tau development from hunter-gatherers to interstellar empire in 6,000 years is a bit fast, compared to human analogues in our history. (We are not there, yet, after all, despite having longer than that.) But then, in-universe, they are not humans, but aliens, so what is true for us should not necessarily be for them, as well.
"But there's no story past Episode VI, there's just no story. It's a certain story about Anakin Skywalker and once Anakin Skywalker dies, that's kind of the end of the story. There is no story about Luke Skywalker, I mean apart from the books."
Perhaps the Earth caste tends to develop high intelligence more frequently than the other castes? That would explain the discrepancy in their overall behaviour compared to their technological development. Do bear in mind that there are significant--err... I may be using this term incorrectly, but--phenotypical differences between the castes.
Darth Hoth wrote:I would imagine that the Grimdark insane theocracy and tech regression elements in the Imperium play into it. After all, their tech has basically been regressing for the last 10,000+ years.
Although one could argue that the Tau development from hunter-gatherers to interstellar empire in 6,000 years is a bit fast, compared to human analogues in our history. (We are not there, yet, after all, despite having longer than that.) But then, in-universe, they are not humans, but aliens, so what is true for us should not necessarily be for them, as well.
Well certain examples point to some rate of advancment like the planet Tesla which was full of experimental weaponry(latest Nid codex),experimental torpedoes from Execution Hour(or was it Shadow Point),they have invented a plasma weaponry which was a basically a lost tech from Golden Age(for ships),in M37 Lance weaponry has been "perfected" by Mars.
Hence why I said "basically". Warhammer is inconsistent on such simple things as the mechanism of lasguns (from lasers to blaster-type weapons to who knows what) or what promethium is (from tank fuel to avgas to starship fuel), so there is little surprise that there are examples of anything and everything in it, including tech advancement. However, from everything I have seen, by and large the Imperium's tech base is portrayed as stagnated and/or decaying in the fluff.
Oh, and the Ork Killer torpedoes were from Shadow Point, I believe.
"But there's no story past Episode VI, there's just no story. It's a certain story about Anakin Skywalker and once Anakin Skywalker dies, that's kind of the end of the story. There is no story about Luke Skywalker, I mean apart from the books."
IvanTih wrote:One the thing that bugs me is the plausible way to explain Tau rapid advancment which happened over 6k years and the level at which they are and which took humans tens of thousand years to achieve.
I would imagine that the Grimdark insane theocracy and tech regression elements in the Imperium play into it.
Yeah, this. Being able to advance faster than a polity as dysfunctional as the IoM does not strike me as an implausibly impressive achievement.
Darth Hoth wrote:Hence why I said "basically". Warhammer is inconsistent on such simple things as the mechanism of lasguns (from lasers to blaster-type weapons to who knows what) or what promethium is (from tank fuel to avgas to starship fuel), so there is little surprise that there are examples of anything and everything in it, including tech advancement. However, from everything I have seen, by and large the Imperium's tech base is portrayed as stagnated and/or decaying in the fluff.
Oh, and the Ork Killer torpedoes were from Shadow Point, I believe.
The Imperium's best may well be static or slowly climbing (in certain areas) while the average degenerates. The Adeptus Mechanicus's attitudes are very counterproductive here, because they tend to hoard high-end technology on specific Forge Worlds. When a Forge World is lost to disaster or enemy action, this can result in excellent technologies (like the Vanquisher antitank gun) being lost with them. So even if the AdMech are still making gradual advances over the height of technology circa 30000 AD (and/or recovering technology from humanity's height, circa 20000-25000 AD)... that doesn't do the average guy on the frontline much good. Even the Imperium's elites, such as the Space Marines, suffer from the difficulty of producing the Imperium's highest technology (such as Dreadnoughts).
So whether "the Imperium's" technology is regressing depends on what you mean by "the Imperium." The very very best of their stuff is as good as it ever was, or better. But the quantity of that very best gear is steadily declining, with an increasing number of makeshifts and field improvisations taking its place.
