Was this cheating or smart studying?

[CaptainChewbacca]

When I build unit tests, I actually tell students in advance what questions I'm going to ask. I will give them a list of 100 multiple choice questions and 10-15 short answer or essay questions. My students know that I'm going to use 20% of those questions on the actual test, so the only way they can 'ace' the test is to learn the answers to each question.

I do, however, jumple up the answers so that they can't recognize a question and give a letter. And really, there's no difference between memorizing the answer to an essay prompt and a study prompt.

To me this is sour grapes on the part of a teacher who got caught doing less than his full duty. As to HOW the students got the questions, you don't have to prove you're a teacher to buy a teacher's edition and its pretty affordable if you split a $200 test bank 150 ways. I might argue it is unfair for the students who didn't have access to the test bank, since generally it is considered improper for there to be extra study materials that students can buy to markedly improve their test scores.

[Psychic_Sandwich]

To me this is sour grapes on the part of a teacher who got caught doing less than his full duty. As to HOW the students got the questions, you don't have to prove you're a teacher to buy a teacher's edition and its pretty affordable if you split a $200 test bank 150 ways. I might argue it is unfair for the students who didn't have access to the test bank, since generally it is considered improper for there to be extra study materials that students can buy to markedly improve their test scores.

Not sure I understand that last bit. I had to buy all my textbooks for uni, and I bought a couple that others didn't. It just so happened that one of them had a chapter that turned out to be extremely helpful in the immunology module I was taking that semester,and I guess I'd probably have failed if I didn't have it because I found the 'assigned' textbook completely impenetrable on the subject. I know for certain that others found the same thing, and I happened to do quite a bit better than them (although, that could just as well have been because I actually, y'know, studied ). Is it improper that I bought the extra textbook - which was freely available on the shelves of the university's Waterstones store - rather than sticking with the book that we were told to use for the course?

[Skgoa]

The thing is, choosing a random sample from a testbank for the exam is done pretty often. I know of at least two exams at two different faculties of my university where you are told to study for a subset of 200 questions, they just don't tell you WHICH 20 questions will be chosen. No one would ever claim its cheating. I think the Professor is just angry/embarassed about his students rather memorizing the answer patterns (as I gather multiple choice is common at american universities) instead of studying. But thats not cheating, thats a stupid method of making an exam.

[Eternal_Freedom]

My lecturer has a rather novel idea for "exams"

He believes that exams in no way relate to what we'd have to do in real world, so his idea of a final-year assesment is "turn up at 9, be assigned a star, be given some data, told to come back at 3 with the rest of the data"

We can use any other materials we wish, we can work with other students if we wish, we just have to show something at the end

[CaptJodan]

Oh look, it's my university. I really hate when things I'm associated with make it to this board. Strange that I haven't heard anything about this yet, though.

I'd say this is a case of a lazy professor. I've had a few professors you could tell got their questions from a bank, but it's more the exception than the rule, at least in the programs that I've been involved in. I'd side with those who think this is just a bunch of resourceful students, not cheating.

[AMT]

Ummm guys, I know people that got their hands on the test banks from the publishers for the test.

Many, or even most of these people I know, don't even bother reading the questions. They either just memorize the order of choices (a, b, c, d , b, b, a) or they merely put it all onto piece of paper or these days on their iphones the entire test bank.

Now if the questions were all jumbled up, and everyone had access to it, it would be different. But the fact that some students didn't and some students did is the huge problem. I hold a lot of animosity towards those students, many of whom actually got very good paying jobs even though that had no clue what they were doing. It also demonstrated that internships are subjective bullshit because none of them got weeded out during the internships.

Or..... they did know what they were doing since they can do the job and weren't weeded out during the internships, but didn't bother caring about a class where the professor couldn't be bothered to do something as minor as change the order of the questions.

[ShadowDragon8685]

I once had a professor who was lazy as hell. He openly told the class that he'd diligently made up about three or four different tests on the topic - in the 1960s, when he started working at the school, and he hadn't bothered to change them since then.

As far as he was concerned, if you got the questions right without using a cheat-sheet you got the grade you got. If you got it by actually knowing the material, good for you, you'll make it in academia. If you got it by finding and memorizing a copy of all of the prior tests then good for you, you'll make it in the real world.



Yeah, he was a bit of a lazy asshole, always going on about how the class material was more or less useless and going off on "real-world" tangents like how to hire an illegal laborer to put up a house... Still, I got through the classes the hard way, and he always liked me for that.

What this egged-faced prof in the OP considers cheating, that old guy would've considered a legitimate way to get ahead. And I'm forced to agree; if you're going to be that lazy, then don't be surprised if the students figure it out and ace the exam by exploiting the chink in your laziness.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Is it improper that I bought the extra textbook - which was freely available on the shelves of the university's Waterstones store - rather than sticking with the book that we were told to use for the course?

No, I wouldn't consider it improper on your part. If it was extra useful, thats good, but if you couldn't pass the class WITHOUT that extra book, then that would be a shitty professor for not telling you to buy that book in the first place. If a book is going to be THAT helpful, it SHOULD be required, but it sounds like most people did fine without it.

[Mr Flibble]

I find this pretty perplexing to be honest. At Adelaide University for most of my courses at the end of semester we were handed a copy of the previous year's exam, in some cases a couple of years examples were given. Given that I would not see this instance as cheating, but as seems to be the consensus it is really an example of poor teaching.

It seems from this thread though that American universities have a lot of multiple choice questions (for my course the standard was, some multi-choice, some short answer, a couple of long answer questions), which I think is another example of lazy teaching. However this thread is too small a sample for me to really draw a conclusion on that from.

[CaptainChewbacca]

It seems from this thread though that American universities have a lot of multiple choice questions (for my course the standard was, some multi-choice, some short answer, a couple of long answer questions), which I think is another example of lazy teaching. However this thread is too small a sample for me to really draw a conclusion on that from.

At lower academic levels, and American college professor at a large school might have three different classes of 250-300 students that he lectures to. Multiple Choice is the only way to test in anything resembling a reasonable period of time.

[aerius]

At lower academic levels, and American college professor at a large school might have three different classes of 250-300 students that he lectures to. Multiple Choice is the only way to test in anything resembling a reasonable period of time.

I'd have to disagree with that. My first year courses had around that number of students and I know for a fact that the profs taught several such classes at the same time. All our tests & exams were full answer write out the entire solution and don't skip too many steps or we'll whack you for marks kind of tests. Some of our final exams had well over 10 pages worth of problems which we had to solve and write out.

[SCRawl]

At lower academic levels, and American college professor at a large school might have three different classes of 250-300 students that he lectures to. Multiple Choice is the only way to test in anything resembling a reasonable period of time.

I'd have to disagree with that. My first year courses had around that number of students and I know for a fact that the profs taught several such classes at the same time. All our tests & exams were full answer write out the entire solution and don't skip too many steps or we'll whack you for marks kind of tests. Some of our final exams had well over 10 pages worth of problems which we had to solve and write out.

I'll second that. My first year chemistry had some multiple choice along with the long answer variety, but the latter was where the marks definitely were. And there were at least two (and possibly three, the memory is starting to go) lecture groups, each containing between 200 and 300 students -- basically everyone in first year NatSci or Engineering had to take that course. Math and physics were similar, though with even greater emphasis on the long answer questions. Isn't this what grad students are for?

[ArmorPierce]

The idea that anyone could cheat by memorizing letter orders for multiple choice, or storing them in a phone, is kind of absurd to me. Even the laziest instructors I've ever had actually bothered to have two versions of the exam, to keep you from copying your neighbour. It's easy enough, just rearrange each section. And nobody is allowed any electronics, if you decide you don't want to bother turning your phone all the way off and just put it on silent, you're fucked if the prof hears it vibrating in your pocket. No hats, nothing but your writing instruments, ID cards, and the test itself. It's been standard since high school, and at both the U of A and MacEwan.

I don't know why it's absurd. This was happening at multiple schools in New Jersey in the Accounting program including Rutgers University which is not some two-bit operation. I've seen and know people who have cheated in that matter so yes, the professors are that lazy. Also you do realize you can turn off vibrtate on phones right? As I stated, I know and seen people who have cheated in that matter so I don't know why you think it's some kind of crazy idea?

Cheating in the accounting program in new jersey schools was very wide spread and the people who cheated usually got really great jobs coming out of school.

[ArmorPierce]

Now if everyone had access to these questions, it would be fine, but it was only certain 'cliches' of people that had them that got them through sketchy methods which were not readily accessible to the rest of the class. The people who usually had them were real idiot type guys who would not share it outside certain people and then a bunch of girls who these idiotic guys talked to.

[Kyler]

I know from personal experience that some courses use testbanks and allow the student to use them to help them study.

All my FAA pilot exams in I took in college used testbanks. The testbanks were from last years test, with the new years test being changed but no by much. The previous years testbank was an essential piece of study material for any pilot. It show you exactly what you need to learn. Often many of the questions were the same every year, and new one were similar enough to the old ones that they answer was not fairly hard figure out.

If a teacher/professor uses a testbank and doesn't make note in the syllabus or by telling the students that using the testbank is off limits than the students did not cheat. They just used the most effective way to study for the class.

The professor is just being a hypocrite.

[Mr Flibble]

At lower academic levels, and American college professor at a large school might have three different classes of 250-300 students that he lectures to. Multiple Choice is the only way to test in anything resembling a reasonable period of time.

The professors/ and lecturers here solve the problem of having too much material to mark by getting the postgrad student to help the marking of the exams.

At lower academic levels here (I assume you mean schools) class sizes are not that large that it is a problem, and when it comes to the final exams for graduation, those exams are marked externally from the school, with the agency responsible for the exams (the department of education) providing funding for enough people to mark the exams in a timely fashion. The only times I personally have had multi-choice only tests they are either a small quick within term/semester test, external competitions (so not counted to actual grades), or psychology exams (which I think is laziness on the part of the psychology department). I believe that the new government mandated basic skills test is multiple choice only, but that test is really aimed at assessing the teachers/school not the students.

[Dartz]

I had one professor who did the exact opposite. He specifically told us the exam format in week one, and regularly re-iterated the same through the entire course. The entire course itself was made of up someone's decade-old powerpoint slides that he read verbatim like karaoke without bothering to go into the material. The only time we learned anything was from 2 post-grads who'd had the proper course the year before. And we only saw them once every 2 weeks.

And then, when it came to exam time, not only was the paper a different format.... it was a 'just write the answers in' paper. When the questions required about a half-hour's careful calculation and work beforehand. No right answer == Zero marks. He didn't care about how you did them. There was a reason he was called Mister Potato Head. And it wasn't because he had a head the same shape as a decent spud.


Otherwise, using past exams in order to study for future exams was a pretty common thing when I was in university. The University actually kept a good chunk of them on file, and made them available to students. In general, papers would usually end up being 'similar' to them, with similar toned questions. Though, using a test-bank gets harder in engineering exams, where in order to change the question, all you have to do is change a few numbers around, or replace a current source with a voltage source.

[Phantasee]

The University of Alberta's Student Union has an exam bank where they post up old midterms and finals for a large number of classes and professors. Quite a few professors add to it every semester, others give a few from years past. Only the psychology department refuses to participate, although I'm not sure if that's changed (I doubt it).

It was a pretty good source of material to study. Really, what's the difference between going through a test bank and just doing the questions at the end of the chapters? They're both good review, and there's only so many questions in a textbook. Why not use similar questions from a test bank if you want more review?

[Steel]

The University of Alberta's Student Union has an exam bank where they post up old midterms and finals for a large number of classes and professors. Quite a few professors add to it every semester, others give a few from years past. Only the psychology department refuses to participate, although I'm not sure if that's changed (I doubt it).

It was a pretty good source of material to study. Really, what's the difference between going through a test bank and just doing the questions at the end of the chapters? They're both good review, and there's only so many questions in a textbook. Why not use similar questions from a test bank if you want more review?

Cambridge has the last decade or two of exams for all subjects available online, however if you go to the university or college libraries they have every single one going back centuries.

It is actually hilarious to look up a maths exam from the 1800s as the subject has moved on so much.

[ArmorPierce]

Or..... they did know what they were doing since they can do the job and weren't weeded out during the internships, but didn't bother caring about a class where the professor couldn't be bothered to do something as minor as change the order of the questions.

In that case.... what's the point of the classes at all? derrr.... nothign but a shurray barrier of entry?

Honestly, that's what I think it is and that pretty much anyone can do the job. Internships is just another bullshit barrier of entry where people claim to make objective decisions when it's mostly subjective.

[Teebs]

Cambridge has the last decade or two of exams for all subjects available online, however if you go to the university or college libraries they have every single one going back centuries.

It is actually hilarious to look up a maths exam from the 1800s as the subject has moved on so much.

Same for Oxford. A lot of other universities seem quite unwilling to make their past papers easily accessible though.

[Steel]

Cambridge has the last decade or two of exams for all subjects available online, however if you go to the university or college libraries they have every single one going back centuries.

It is actually hilarious to look up a maths exam from the 1800s as the subject has moved on so much.

Same for Oxford. A lot of other universities seem quite unwilling to make their past papers easily accessible though.

I can see why. Any time I think the questions might be getting a bit too easy or my current students are incompetent I just look up some exams from other places. Dear god.

[Minischoles]

It's not cheating, it's laziness on the part of the teacher. You've got to expect that students will use anything they can get their hands on in order to get a good grade, whether that means expensive text books or test banks.
I know for example that all through college and university, i've been able to get hold of past exams, whether that's through the teachers themselves or through other resources, and so naturally while the questions generally follow the same format, they're changed each year so you can't just memorise things.

The teacher here is acting all upset, because students found out his lazy ass wasn't about to write his own test, and got hold of the test bank to study for it. If they did that illegally (I can't see it being illegal) then it's cheating, but otherwise it's a study practice - a little unfair for the poorer students, but that can't be helped sometimes.

[lance]

I like that he said he wrote all his tests himself, and when everything happened he still didn't write the tests himself.

[AMT]

Or..... they did know what they were doing since they can do the job and weren't weeded out during the internships, but didn't bother caring about a class where the professor couldn't be bothered to do something as minor as change the order of the questions.

In that case.... what's the point of the classes at all? derrr.... nothign but a shurray barrier of entry?

Honestly, that's what I think it is and that pretty much anyone can do the job. Internships is just another bullshit barrier of entry where people claim to make objective decisions when it's mostly subjective.

See, this I agree with. Of course I also think that, except for the hard sciences most of the degrees needed nowadays are kinda bullshit. When you live in a world where secretaries need bachelor degrees one has to wonder if the quality of college education has become less about the actual gaining of knowledge and more about pushing the younger generation into debt via loans.