Way to go, TSA

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Re: Way to go, TSA

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

I'm not talking about the results of a test, I'm talking about performing the test. You will never be asked to pee in a cup in front of the general public. Now, though, you will be subjected to sexual assault/molestation in front of the general public, and in some cases people are asked to remove prosthetics are are normally worn UNDER their clothes. That is not OK.
Hey dipshit, making people remove prosthetics is actually against TSA policy, and a violation of the ADA...

http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/ ... 370.shtm#0
# Security Officers will need to see and touch your prosthetic device, cast or support brace as part of the screening process.


# Security Officers will not ask nor require you to remove your prosthetic device, cast, or support brace.


# During the screening process, please do not remove or offer to remove your prosthetic device.


# You have the option of requesting a private screening at any time during the screening of your prosthetic device, cast or support brace.

...


# The Security Officer should offer you a private screening if clothing will need to be lifted or raised in order to obtain the explosive trace sample. You will not be required to remove any clothing during the process or remove or display the belt that holds your prosthetic device to your body.
Well, we know THAT is horseshit - far too many instances of people being asked to do just that. In public.
It just means that some mouth-breathing son of a whore does not know that the Americans With Disabilities Act still exists...

Not that we expect fascists to care.
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Re: Way to go, TSA

Post by Broomstick »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
I'm not talking about the results of a test, I'm talking about performing the test. You will never be asked to pee in a cup in front of the general public. Now, though, you will be subjected to sexual assault/molestation in front of the general public, and in some cases people are asked to remove prosthetics are are normally worn UNDER their clothes. That is not OK.
Hey dipshit, making people remove prosthetics is actually against TSA policy, and a violation of the ADA....
Um... Alyrium, did you really intend to call me a dipshit, or was that a product of posting late at night or whatever?

Yeah, it may be against TSA policy, but apparently it's a policy that gets violated a LOT.

What's really hysterically funny is when my Other Half was once told by airport security to "remove your prosthesis". Um... no can do. You see, it replaced the bones in his right leg from just under the knee, said bones having been destroyed (yes, all the bones - tibia, fibia, and all the bones of his right foot). Thing is, it's under all the meat of his leg. It can't be removed as it is now an integral part of his leg and skeleton. In fact, that was kind of the point of the operation, to AVOID having to remove his leg.

He was told that if he couldn't remove it for inspection he couldn't fly.

So he never got on that airplane.

How stupid, really, as it is very obvious his leg was laid open at one point and sewed back together. Clearly, it is a flesh-covered leg firmly attached to the rest of his body. Yet the security drone couldn't understand that it was NOT something removable.

Due to his on-going request not to discuss that particular aspect of his disability I will not discuss the urinary issues common to those with spina bifida, but suffice to say that his normal accoutrements for dealing with it need to be kept sterile and no doubt are at high risk of being pawed by TSA these days, should we be so silly as attempt to buy an airline ticket. Need I point out these items are not normally available at your local drug store or hotel gift shops? I suppose he should be happy to contract bladder or kidney infections in order to keep the skies safe from the disabled.
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Re: Way to go, TSA

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Um... Alyrium, did you really intend to call me a dipshit, or was that a product of posting late at night or whatever?
No!

I quoted the wrong set of tags. Meant to snip MO's bit of text from yours, but I seem to have grabbed the wrong text by mistake. My Bad.

We are in this case in complete agreement...
He was told that if he couldn't remove it for inspection he couldn't fly.

So he never got on that airplane.

How stupid, really, as it is very obvious his leg was laid open at one point and sewed back together. Clearly, it is a flesh-covered leg firmly attached to the rest of his body. Yet the security drone couldn't understand that it was NOT something removable.
At that point, i quote chapter and verse from the Americans With Disabilities act and TSA's own policy.

Seriously, that is no different from someone having a metal plate holding bits of their skull together

"I am sorry sir, but if you cannot remove your skull for inspection, you will not be allowed to fly"

:wtf:
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Re: Way to go, TSA

Post by Simon_Jester »

If the person making the demand can function without a brain, so can you!

Seriously, I find it very hard to believe that anyone jumped in on the side of this kind of treatment. If it were purely a matter of privacy and aversion to being seen naked, AND if there was a real, demonstrable chance of a 9/11 style attack being averted by the technology... I might be able to convince myself to accept the terahertz scan that sees through clothing. if that were all it was.

Except none of those conditions apply. No one has shown any satisfactory evidence that a 9/11 style attack is likely to be stopped by terahertz scanners, or that if it could, it could not ALSO be stopped by other, less intrusive technologies (such as metal detectors).*

And it's NOT just a matter of privacy and aversion to being seen naked. A large fraction of American citizens, who have the same rights as any of the rest of us, have medical conditions that absolutely require the wearing of devices that are either delicate and prone to being damaged when groped (like urostomy bags), impossible to inspect to the TSA's satisfaction (like Mr. Broomstick's prosthetic leg bones), or are of such a sensitive nature that having them examined causes tremendous mental distress (such as prosthetic breasts).

There's also the separate issue of transsexuals, closely related to the last point, also subject to massive humiliation in this context. And transsexuals have good reasons to believe, based on pure statistics, that they may be injured or killed if they are outed as such. For them it isn't just humiliation; there is a literal risk to life and limb that comes from having their genitals examined in public or semi-public environments.

All these people will be expected to pass through the airport scanners, and under current TSA rules none of them can fly without taking a massive risk of being subjected to injury, infection, profound humiliation, or simply being barred from the plane because they can't rip open their own leg to show you their metal bones.

And I agree with Alyrium and Broomstick: this is blatant discrimination against epople with medical conditions of these types. And I can't for the life of me understand where people like Chardok or Ossus come from in saying otherwise.

*Seriously, the TSA tends to move the goalposts here.

One possibility is that we're trying to defend against another 9/11 attack? That would justify a lot of security, but would also require a much more organized, heavily equipped, and well-planned enemy. Which means that it would be easier to detect the weapons if effective weapons are used... and that the incremental benefit of more security drops because the enemy will be better at finding ways to evade it if 'stealthy' weapons are used. To hijack a plane with an Uzi you need to get the Uzi through security; to hijack a plane with a ceramic folding knife... well, if you can do that, you can probably do it whether they do a terahertz scan and grope your crotch or not.

So that would justify lots of detectors and searches, but also makes such an extensive outlay less necessary- if they're smart enough to fool the FBI and the metal detector, they're probably smart enough to fool the terahertz scanner; adding that extra layer at the airport doesn't change the outcome significantly.

The other possibility is that we're trying to defend against random idiots who think smuggling a few ounces of detcord in their underwear makes them a hero. That's harder to detect and prevent, so more security would theoretically be required... but it also poses less of a threat, which means less security is justified. There's no reason why we should have to consent to having our groins thumped in order to keep random idiots from conspiring to set their genitals on fire on an airplane.

If we're worried about small scale terrorist attackers, we would need more detectors and searches to stop them... but the small attacks don't present enough of a threat to justify the sacrifice.

So which is it? Are we trying to prevent 9/11, which requires less security provisions but gives the TSA an unquestionable writ to enforce those provisions? Or are we trying to stop the next Underwear Bomber, which would require more security provisions but make it impossible to justify them?
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Re: Way to go, TSA

Post by Ericxihn »

9/11 will not happen again. Not because of any stupid TSA policy, but because passengers in a plane are no longer going to stand down and let the plane be hijacked because a couple of guys wave around box cutters and claim that they have a bomb. During 9/11 people on the plane probably thought that it was going to be one of those hijackings where the terrorists made some ridiculous demands followed by a standoff on the tarmac. They had no idea the plane would be used as a missile, and when they found out, in the case of United 93, they retook the plane. To answer a statement from before, we can rely on passengers to ensure that another suicide hijacking won't happen. Passengers and reinforced cockpit doors.

We can also rely on passenger to some extent to report and stop suicide bombings. It was a passenger who reported the shoebomber, it was a passenger who reported the liquid bomber in the bathroom and a passenger who discovered the underwear bomber.

Now think about the cost/benefit analysis of TSA policies. The absolute worst that a terrorist can do is take out the plane itself (Unless they're so skilled/ lucky that the bomb causes the plane to crash into something important) But even that they can't do with a bomb in some guys underwear. Maybe with a larger bomb in bag, but groping people has no effect on finding those.

Think about somebody who opts for a long road trip instead of flying. Driving is already less safe than flying, but imagine if it's a congested route like DC to New York. Every extra car on that road will increase the chance of driving deaths. I have no idea how many death's were caused this way since 9/11 (though with access to enough statistics and statistical, I might be able to guess) but I'm pretty sure it's greater than or equal to the number of death's caused by airline terrorism in that interval, i.e. zero.

That's not to mention other costs such as increased difficulty of doing business or reluctance of foreign business people or students to come to the US, all of which hurt the long term health of this country.
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Re: Way to go, TSA

Post by Simon_Jester »

There's also the cash value of the man-hours spent standing in security lines- at a rough estimate, how many passengers have boarded a plane in the last ten years, figure one hour per person.
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Re: Way to go, TSA

Post by General Zod »

Simon_Jester wrote:There's also the cash value of the man-hours spent standing in security lines- at a rough estimate, how many passengers have boarded a plane in the last ten years, figure one hour per person.
You're looking at about 30,000 flights per day, each plane averaging a hundred-twenty passengers, if you wanted to be generous.
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Re: Way to go, TSA

Post by weemadando »

As always when discussing retarded security, this video needs to be brought up.



It's continually the same bullshit - all this enhanced security now with patdowns and backscatter x-rays just means that next time some AQ eejit will set his colon on fire trying to blow up a plane Man On Fire style rather than just burning his dick off. And then we'll all have to bend over and cough anytime we want to board a plane.
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Re: Way to go, TSA

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Reports have come out before about A-Q looking for doctors to sew bombs inside of people. Luckily it would be hard to make a bomb compact enough and yet powerful enough to make that idea work.
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Re: Way to go, TSA

Post by General Zod »

Sea Skimmer wrote:Reports have come out before about A-Q looking for doctors to sew bombs inside of people. Luckily it would be hard to make a bomb compact enough and yet powerful enough to make that idea work.
Except we've already had an attempt from a guy doing just that?
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Re: Way to go, TSA

Post by Sea Skimmer »

That example only proves the point, the bomb didn’t kill the target despite coming close, if it would have been powerful enough to bring down a plane I have no idea. Either way not only are you stuck with a small bomb but also the containment of the blast by a human body makes a real difference with small explosions. Terrorists could do stuff to make the bombs more effective in that scenario, I won't help give them ideas.
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Re: Way to go, TSA

Post by fgalkin »

Serafina wrote:
RE: Transgendered people, I cannot feel bad for them. they're going to be initially searched by a same-sex who, let's be honest, when they get down to the crotch area, are probably[/]i going to understand what's up pretty quickly and either hand the pat-down off to a male, or just continue. I seriously doubt they're going to scream "HOLY CRAP A DICKINAMINISKIRT" to the entire airport.
From all I've read, i wouldn't trust the TSA with being that sensible. Heck, i wouldn't be surprised if they pull a pre-OP transwoman for extra searches, question the legality of her papers and all other kind of harassment, just because she is transsexual.

I would most likely be searched by a woman (if i had any reason to go to the USA), given that my outward appearance is female and my papers will soon be. But when she gets down to that certain area, she will still find male genitalia until i get my SRS.
However, i am an exception due to being from Germany - other countries have other laws and you don't get the gender entry on your passport until you have SRS (this was the case in Germany until a few years ago as well). So yes, it is entirely possible that for a transwoman to get groped"searched" by a man - and not just in the crotch area.
There is apparently a guide of sorts for transgendered travellers and the new procedures. It pretty much amounts to "we're trying to change things, in the meantime, hope for the best and if you do get picked on, know your rights and don't piss of TSA personnel."

That's...not very encouraging at all..

Have a very nice day.
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Re: Way to go, TSA

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

just remind the Nice TSA agent that the 20 to life sentance for denying someone their civil rights can apply to them.
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Re: Way to go, TSA

Post by Chaotic Neutral »

The Yosemite Bear wrote:just remind the Nice TSA agent that the 20 to life sentance for denying someone their civil rights can apply to them.
That's a great way to miss your flight. I know if I was in the TSA, I would do everything in my power to inconvenience you.
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Re: Way to go, TSA

Post by Sky Captain »

All that superduper security procedures is just a waste of time and money. There is no need to hijack or blow up an aircraft to wreak some serious havok and cause a loss of life. If I went crazy and decided to kill as much people as possible there are plenty of plots I can think of that don't recquire smuggling bombs or guns through airport level security, even plots that don't recquire any bombs or guns at all.

For example what will TSA do when someone tries to attack arliner that's taking off or landing with a homemade rocket - ban all chemicals that has the potential to be used as rocket fuel good luck with that.
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Re: Way to go, TSA

Post by Skgoa »

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Re: Way to go, TSA

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Sky Captain wrote:For example what will TSA do when someone tries to attack arliner that's taking off or landing with a homemade rocket - ban all chemicals that has the potential to be used as rocket fuel good luck with that.
At one point after 9/11 the government wanted to ban model rocketry - the wonder is they didn't.
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Re: Way to go, TSA

Post by Simon_Jester »

General Zod wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:There's also the cash value of the man-hours spent standing in security lines- at a rough estimate, how many passengers have boarded a plane in the last ten years, figure one hour per person.
You're looking at about 30,000 flights per day, each plane averaging a hundred-twenty passengers, if you wanted to be generous.
So... 3.6 million man-hours a day, over something like three thousand days...

In the general vicinity of ten billion man-hours wasted on standing in line. Maybe half that if I'm overestimating the average time spent at the security checkpoint.

How do you express the value of something like that?
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Re: Way to go, TSA

Post by Alyeska »

Chaotic Neutral wrote:
The Yosemite Bear wrote:just remind the Nice TSA agent that the 20 to life sentance for denying someone their civil rights can apply to them.
That's a great way to miss your flight. I know if I was in the TSA, I would do everything in my power to inconvenience you.
You would deliberately make people miserable because they reminded you to do your job without breaking the law? That makes you an ass pure and simple.
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Re: Way to go, TSA

Post by Molyneux »

The quick and tempting answer is "don't fly".
Of course, that's trite and doesn't take into account the people whose livelihood depends on it.
For me, I'll avoid flying wherever possible - which is a goddamned shame, since as much as I despise airports, I love actually flying - but as far as more proactive steps go, does anyone on this thread know anything I can do to make my disgust for this sexual-assault bullshit known?
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Re: Way to go, TSA

Post by Akhlut »

Simon_Jester wrote:
General Zod wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:There's also the cash value of the man-hours spent standing in security lines- at a rough estimate, how many passengers have boarded a plane in the last ten years, figure one hour per person.
You're looking at about 30,000 flights per day, each plane averaging a hundred-twenty passengers, if you wanted to be generous.
So... 3.6 million man-hours a day, over something like three thousand days...

In the general vicinity of ten billion man-hours wasted on standing in line. Maybe half that if I'm overestimating the average time spent at the security checkpoint.

How do you express the value of something like that?
I don't think you can put a dollar value on human misery. Unless you're an economist.

HI-OH!

More seriously: it is impossible to really calculate. If a businessman is delayed for an hour and misses an important meeting that means a $1 million contract isn't signed, do we figure that into the calculation? Or, to take myself as an example: I scheduled a vacation to California back in May to begin on a Wednesday and I worked on Tuesday. Because the flight left so early (7 AM) and I lived 2.5 hours from the airport, I left work at noon. If I had to figure an additional half hour or hour for TSA bullshit, I would have lost an hour of pay for leaving at 11 instead. Do we figure that in? Then there's people who are salaried or on Social Security; since their time isn't paying them, is it "free" for the purposes of this calculation? And then there's quality-of-life and dignity issues to contend with and try to put a price on.
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Re: Way to go, TSA

Post by Simon_Jester »

Akhlut wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:So... 3.6 million man-hours a day, over something like three thousand days...
In the general vicinity of ten billion man-hours wasted on standing in line. Maybe half that if I'm overestimating the average time spent at the security checkpoint.
How do you express the value of something like that?
I don't think you can put a dollar value on human misery. Unless you're an economist.
HI-OH!
Maybe not, but you can sure place a dollar value on the cost of a huge waste of time... or at least a vague estimate.
More seriously: it is impossible to really calculate. If a businessman is delayed for an hour and misses an important meeting that means a $1 million contract isn't signed, do we figure that into the calculation? Or, to take myself as an example: I scheduled a vacation to California back in May to begin on a Wednesday and I worked on Tuesday. Because the flight left so early (7 AM) and I lived 2.5 hours from the airport, I left work at noon. If I had to figure an additional half hour or hour for TSA bullshit, I would have lost an hour of pay for leaving at 11 instead. Do we figure that in? Then there's people who are salaried or on Social Security; since their time isn't paying them, is it "free" for the purposes of this calculation?
You're totally right that this would be a very complicated calculation. I think a sufficiently determined team could come up with an order-of-magnitude estimate, based crudely on things like salary and the frequency with which people in given income brackets fly.

My real point is that the numbers involved here are staggering: much larger than one might expect. Large enough that we need to seriously consider the question of whether the cost of the added security is greater than the reduced risk of terrorist attacks can justify in purely economic terms...
And then there's quality-of-life and dignity issues to contend with and try to put a price on.
...before we even try to factor this in.
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Re: Way to go, TSA

Post by Alyeska »

Adam Savage (Mythbusters) accidentally got on an airplane with 12" long razor blades with the TSA body scanners having completely missed the items.

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news ... blades.ars
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Re: Way to go, TSA

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

After talking about the woman with Breast Cancer, and the guy with the urine bag, the ADA, etc, I am now convinced that the only way the TSA could possibly piss off more people is if they got on a disabled Vet's case for having a titanium cheeta leg to replace the one he lost in Iraq or Afganistan....

Fox reporter: But he had recently been in the middle east....
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Re: Way to go, TSA

Post by Alyeska »

The Yosemite Bear wrote:After talking about the woman with Breast Cancer, and the guy with the urine bag, the ADA, etc, I am now convinced that the only way the TSA could possibly piss off more people is if they got on a disabled Vet's case for having a titanium cheeta leg to replace the one he lost in Iraq or Afganistan....

Fox reporter: But he had recently been in the middle east....
The TSA has already caused trouble for troops.

TSA confiscates nail clippers from an armed soldier
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