'Hardcore' backlash against Move/Kinect

[Flagg]

My problem with the Move is mainly that there aren't any games for it that interest me. That and the fact that you have to calibrate it every time you play, which while not overly complicated gets annoying.

[Edward Yee]

My problem with the Move is mainly that there aren't any games for it that interest me. That and the fact that you have to calibrate it every time you play, which while not overly complicated gets annoying

I assume you mean the Move-required games? MAG is the only FPS I know with any Move support, and I've heard that it somewhat helps with shooting in that, though that's the only benefit I know of for that game from using the Move system. The main change I noticed when using the Motion controller is akin to the ARMA series' "floating aim zone," complete with adjustable sensitivity, from both hipfire and aiming down the sights.

I'm in the same boat as Flagg, not enough Move-required games that interest me to justify the buy, and personally I guess I'd like to wait until the system or Move-required games get more consistently accurate at identifying users'/controller movements. (Trying to imagine a Kinect or Move-based grappling game amuses me.)

As for why I eschew motion gaming... I will shamelessly admit that I'm one of those who gets tired enough as is just playing the Wii, I don't want games that require me to move even more!

[PeZook]

As for why I eschew motion gaming... I will shamelessly admit that I'm one of those who gets tired enough as is just playing the Wii, I don't want games that require me to move even more!

And I personally consider it great to have the option. Such dynamic game controllers are awesome because it makes excercise fun and a competitive experience AND something you can do at home while the baby sleeps, without the logistical hassle. Keeps my waist from running away.

[Lagmonster]

Foreword: As per the Word of Mike, I'm going to go killjoy on this thread and remove the chatty sections.

The OP, in a staggering break from tradition, was a well-written piece criticizing knee-jerk traditionalism among nerds. While individual opinion on the system is valid, what I'm mostly seeing is either apathy towards the interface (Vympel-style) or serious physical limitations which make the interface uncomfortable to use (Chardok-style). We're not seeing any of that "it's ruining gaming!" bullshit that I've also seen elsewhere and the OP is talking about.

I believe Salm is very close to right when he says:

It´s probably got to do with people being scared of their "scene" vanishing due to a similar thing going mainstream.

'Hardcore' Gamers are a tribe. Tribes identify themselves by being aware of and having access to ideas, language, and actions that are unique to their tribe.

But what's been happening over the past ten years feels like something of a market epiphany: They've realized that significant sums of money are owned by people who aren't part of the tribe. Suddenly - and industry philosophers such as VGCats, PVP, Penny arcade, etc., have all done panels on this - the tribe isn't so exclusive. Now your granny can call herself a gamer when she plays Popcap games, hyperactive three-year-olds can call themselves gamers when they play Wii, and that vapid hot chick in your class who won't give you her number can call herself a gamer when she plays Farmville. They have access to the things that were formerly yours, they can join in on sympathizing with problems only your group used to understand, and they can add to the language of gaming with terms relevant to their particular niche in it. And worst of all, they don't NEED to be a part of the tribe: they are only 'gamers' as part of the wider scope of being well-rounded human beings. Like the rollerbladers of the 90s, they don't take it seriously, they don't live the culture, and their identity isn't threatened by changing it or taking it away. If I am right, the least I'd expect a 'hardcore' gamer to feel is threatened.

And if I were right, I would also be interested in knowing if this is actually guiding the direction of 'hardcore' franchises like CoD and Halo and causing staleness in these genres: The tribe is splitting into traditionalist factions (the MMO tribe, the FPS tribe) and demanding that their niche be made deeper and more 'insider' so that they can rest comfortably in the margins of the greater tribe that is now 'gamers'.

[PeZook]

Isn't this just a repeat of what was going on all the way back when consoles were becoming mainstream, and even further back with the "war" (heh...) between PC, Amiga and Commodore users?

I still remember how Commodore users were all "Har har Amigas are so easy to use! They're for lamers with no skills!" even when no personal computer was actually simple or straightforward

[Edward Yee]

And I personally consider it great to have the option. Such dynamic game controllers are awesome because it makes excercise fun and a competitive experience AND something you can do at home while the baby sleeps, without the logistical hassle. Keeps my waist from running away.

Makes sense to me, but unfortunately I'm so exercise-unoriented that I don't even use the house's stationary exercise bike -- if anyone else gets endorphins from physical exertion, I unfortunatately don't -- it's why I stopped going to the gym and let my membership expire. In your case, the situation is a lot different so it makes more sense (or at least would be less wasted) for you.

And if I were right, I would also be interested in knowing if this is actually guiding the direction of 'hardcore' franchises like CoD and Halo and causing staleness in these genres: The tribe is splitting into traditionalist factions (the MMO tribe, the FPS tribe) and demanding that their niche be made deeper and more 'insider' so that they can rest comfortably in the margins of the greater tribe that is now 'gamers'.

I can believe this JUST from seeing "quickscope-gate" and its fallout on the CoD boards, partially thanks to the "community manager" himself being an avid anti-quickscoper and the multiplayer design director (understandably) publicly backing him up in the face of complainers and quickscopers who claimed influence (as if the goodwill from the Call of Duty name alone wasn't going to make their complaints moot*). Personally I think the main factional splinter point will (continue to?) be over "game balance," though with "they're making this game too casual friendly by nerfing the stuff I like and buffing the stuff I don't like!" flavor.

* This is why "brand" is so valued by companies... enough minimum buys give honchos room to safely ignore certain could-have-been-customers-who-actually-live-up-to-their-boycott-threats.

[aieeegrunt]

Foreword: As per the Word of Mike, I'm going to go killjoy on this thread and remove the chatty sections.

The OP, in a staggering break from tradition, was a well-written piece criticizing knee-jerk traditionalism among nerds. While individual opinion on the system is valid, what I'm mostly seeing is either apathy towards the interface (Vympel-style) or serious physical limitations which make the interface uncomfortable to use (Chardok-style). We're not seeing any of that "it's ruining gaming!" bullshit that I've also seen elsewhere and the OP is talking about.

I believe Salm is very close to right when he says:

It´s probably got to do with people being scared of their "scene" vanishing due to a similar thing going mainstream.

'Hardcore' Gamers are a tribe. Tribes identify themselves by being aware of and having access to ideas, language, and actions that are unique to their tribe.

But what's been happening over the past ten years feels like something of a market epiphany: They've realized that significant sums of money are owned by people who aren't part of the tribe. Suddenly - and industry philosophers such as VGCats, PVP, Penny arcade, etc., have all done panels on this - the tribe isn't so exclusive. Now your granny can call herself a gamer when she plays Popcap games, hyperactive three-year-olds can call themselves gamers when they play Wii, and that vapid hot chick in your class who won't give you her number can call herself a gamer when she plays Farmville. They have access to the things that were formerly yours, they can join in on sympathizing with problems only your group used to understand, and they can add to the language of gaming with terms relevant to their particular niche in it. And worst of all, they don't NEED to be a part of the tribe: they are only 'gamers' as part of the wider scope of being well-rounded human beings. Like the rollerbladers of the 90s, they don't take it seriously, they don't live the culture, and their identity isn't threatened by changing it or taking it away. If I am right, the least I'd expect a 'hardcore' gamer to feel is threatened.

This is spot on, and has been going on for years if not decades. I remember all the sturm und drang from self appointed "hardcore gamers" about Halo when it became mainstream enough for Halo Lego toys to start appearing on Walmart shelves, and you still see echoes of it to this very day. Bonus hilarity points when somebody tries to argue that their particular mainstream shooter is a "real" game when it's one of the other big name ones like Gears or CoD when they all have about the same level of depth. Fattynerd tantrums are probably one of the best indicators of a particular video game or gaming accessory becoming a smash hit amongst normal people.

And if I were right, I would also be interested in knowing if this is actually guiding the direction of 'hardcore' franchises like CoD and Halo and causing staleness in these genres: The tribe is splitting into traditionalist factions (the MMO tribe, the FPS tribe) and demanding that their niche be made deeper and more 'insider' so that they can rest comfortably in the margins of the greater tribe that is now 'gamers'.

Absolutely. It's then gets even funnier because the endless need for validation that is at the root of this kind of tribalism then leads to the FPS "tribe" splintering into tribes based on individual games. You even get tribes within those tribes, as each release of Halo resulted in the fans of the previous edition declaring their Halo to be the "one true Halo". The staleness comes from game developers not wanting to upset the fanboy applecart, so that (aside from Halo) changes in the game between editions tend to be minor. The final irony is that any change no matter how irrelevant will trip the fattynerd validation alarm, so you might as well do whatever the fuck you think will sell since they'll cry no matter what. Perhaps Bungie is not as stupid as is often assumed.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Isn't this just a repeat of what was going on all the way back when consoles were becoming mainstream, and even further back with the "war" (heh...) between PC, Amiga and Commodore users?

I still remember how Commodore users were all "Har har Amigas are so easy to use! They're for lamers with no skills!" even when no personal computer was actually simple or straightforward

I suppose you meant PC, Mac and Amiga (a Commodore product) users? Both Amiga and Mac had a graphical user interface, by the way. There was quite a bit of that attitude among PC/MS-DOS users in the 1980s, though, towards all GUIs (including the Atari ST/TT GEM), but mostly towards Mac, because PC users considered Amiga a gaming system for home users and therefore usually ignored it entirely. Of course when Windows 3.0 came out in 1990, PC users flocked to the GUI in droves, despite the fact that the Windows 3.x GUI sucked donkey balls.

[PeZook]

I suppose you meant PC, Mac and Amiga (a Commodore product) users? Both Amiga and Mac had a graphical user interface, by the way.

The dynamics were slightly different in Poland: by the time the Amiga arrived, Commodore 64s were still a popular system, and Macs were virtually unknown. By "Commodore" I meant the Commodore 64 of course: compared to the Amiga it was utterly primitive, but it didn't stop its users from feeling superior.

There was quite a bit of that attitude among PC/MS-DOS users in the 1980s, though, towards all GUIs (including the Atari ST/TT GEM), but mostly towards Mac, because PC users considered Amiga a gaming system for home users and therefore usually ignored it entirely. Of course when Windows 3.0 came out in 1990, PC users flocked to the GUI in droves, despite the fact that the Windows 3.x GUI sucked donkey balls.

There was a fair bit of back-and-forth in Polish gaming magazines and such between PC and Amiga users which was eerily similar to what I read with regards to PC users dissing consoles as casual and hurr hurr inferior

Anyway, my point was that the phenomenon is not new at all, and related intimately to basic human nature.

[Marcus Aurelius]

I suppose you meant PC, Mac and Amiga (a Commodore product) users? Both Amiga and Mac had a graphical user interface, by the way.

The dynamics were slightly different in Poland: by the time the Amiga arrived, Commodore 64s were still a popular system, and Macs were virtually unknown. By "Commodore" I meant the Commodore 64 of course: compared to the Amiga it was utterly primitive, but it didn't stop its users from feeling superior.

That's actually interesting twist, because in most countries I know about Amiga users were former Commodore 64/128 users, so I don't remember any animosity between those groups. There was, however, some rivalry between Amiga and Atari ST users. Not much relevance to the matter in hand, though, since they were straightforward platform wars.

I remember, though, that in the 1980s some people actually said that color displays were useless on a PC, because you didn't need them for real work and they were just for gamers, and a few years later sound cards received a similar treatment from the "PCs are SERIOUS BUSINESS" crowd. In the reaction of hard core gamers to the Move/Kinect there is something very analogous: "Gaming is a serious matter, don't ruin our serious hard core gaming platforms with your casual social gaming!" Albeit even more ridiculous, considering we are talking about gaming here.

[PeZook]

That's actually interesting twist, because in most countries I know about Amiga users were former Commodore 64/128 users, so I don't remember any animosity between those groups. There was, however, some rivalry between Amiga and Atari ST users. Not much relevance to the matter in hand, though, since they were straightforward platform wars.

Oh, yeah, the Atari was also part of the platform wars

With the Commodore 64 thing, I guess it's because a typical Polish family couldn't afford to easily migrate to the new platform, so lots of people lingered on the old machines while others got their shiny new Amigas. Cue the need for validation

I remember, though, that in the 1980s some people actually said that color displays were useless on a PC, because you didn't need them for real work and they were just for gamers, and a few years later sound cards received a similar treatment from the "PCs are SERIOUS BUSINESS" crowd. In the reaction of hard core gamers to the Move/Kinect there is something very analogous: "Gaming is a serious matter, don't ruin our serious hard core gaming platforms with your casual social gaming!" Albeit even more ridiculous, considering we are talking about gaming here.

I didn't know about the color display thing, though it sounds absolutely hilarious

It's also like that with other things than gaming, though. New features for Office? WAAAAAH! Don't make any changes to what I know!!!

[Lord Woodlouse]

I've definitely noticed a lot of this kind of, I dunno... elitism? For about a year me and my good wife owned only a Wii as a properly working games machine and just about anything I saw online about it had people going on about how awful the machine was and how dumb the control system was. It was pretty retarded considering they were 360/PS3 owners who specifically went to an article or video to rant and rave about a system they don't have and clearly don't want.

Now I have Move for my PS3 (and fair enough, the opening games catalogue is wanting, though Sports Champions is actually pretty good) and it's all starting all over again.

It probably is people feeling threatened. Feeling the old way of playing games will get squeezed out (though I think statistics seem to show they're pretty much two separate non-conflicting markets). It's daft, it really is, but it's the same reflexive reaction that most people who feel threatened do.

[General Zod]

Isn't this just a repeat of what was going on all the way back when consoles were becoming mainstream, and even further back with the "war" (heh...) between PC, Amiga and Commodore users?

I still remember how Commodore users were all "Har har Amigas are so easy to use! They're for lamers with no skills!" even when no personal computer was actually simple or straightforward

Pfft, it's still going on. You have plenty of keyboard warriors that take every opportunity to bash consoles that they can. It's almost impossible to discuss a multiplatform game without some idiot beating his chest about his platform being better.

[wautd]

While I tought the Wii was kinda nifty, I never was convinced enough to buy one so needless to say I was very sceptic about the Kinect as well. Having tried it out for the first time today I have to admit I was pleasantly surprised. A nice piece of technology and a must if you want to do some party gaming on your Xbox. Needless to say, I'm getting me one soon. It won't replace classic gaming any time soon but it's a nice addition.

[Stark]

Pfft, it's still going on. You have plenty of keyboard warriors that take every opportunity to bash consoles that they can. It's almost impossible to discuss a multiplatform game without some idiot beating his chest about his platform being better.

I remember teh PC/Amiga thing too, and the best part is that the Amiga was far better for gaming than a PC.

Given how much MS overcharge for their wireless headsets - and how rapidly the batteries degrade - the Kinect is almost worth it for party chat. I don't even have to get up anymore, let alone dig around for one that actually works/is still paired to the 360/etc.

[Shinova]

I'm pretty sure the hardcore fans have come to identify themselves personally with their console. So when Sony or Microsoft starts branching out to casual audiences they feel like their own identity and selves are being threatened or mayhaps betrayed.


I think it's super-silly, since you've still got regular controllers for xbox and ps3. Just keep playing the games you wanna play and let the move and kinect people have their own fun.

[Chardok]

I think that the Anti-motnion controller crowd Vs. "traditional" could potentially be fueled by traditionalist saying "We don't want resources funnelled out of development of "our" games!"

I can see their point, honestly. with all the crap shovelware out there for the Wii and given how much it sold, it could potentially start chipping away at dev budget for traditional AAA games.

[Stark]

Think about that a bit more. Why would it have any impact at all, outside of a mainstream developer deciding to spin a team out into motion development? The core (by far) 360 audience is still what it was before Kinect came out.

[DPDarkPrimus]

Personally I don't care one way or the other about Kinect. Microsoft is clearly trying to cater towards a more casual market, and they are succeeding. I can't get angry at them for developing a peripheral that isn't tailored towards my specific gaming interests, when they aren't hampering development of "traditional" games in any fashion.

[General Zod]

I think that the Anti-motnion controller crowd Vs. "traditional" could potentially be fueled by traditionalist saying "We don't want resources funnelled out of development of "our" games!"

I can see their point, honestly. with all the crap shovelware out there for the Wii and given how much it sold, it could potentially start chipping away at dev budget for traditional AAA games.

I don't think development budgets work the way you think they do . . .

[Chardok]

Think about that a bit more. Why would it have any impact at all, outside of a mainstream developer deciding to spin a team out into motion development? The core (by far) 360 audience is still what it was before Kinect came out.

True - but I can totally see DoubleFine or some equally awesome developer farming out their version of Tim Schaeffer to develop the next KILLER AP for Kinect because of the "ZOMG HUGE INSTALL BASE" (Kinect did sell over a million units already) thereby robbing, say, I dunno, Rage or something of some really needed creative direction. The point: I don't want Peter Molyneux (shut up.) working on Black and White: Hand Edition (Shit, then again, maybe I do....seems like a Strategy God-game is a good place to go with Kinect what with gesture recognition and all....)

To Zod: Resources =/= budget

[Stark]

Dude, Kinect is like 2M of 45M Xboxes. Anyone threatened by that is an idiot.

[General Zod]

Think about that a bit more. Why would it have any impact at all, outside of a mainstream developer deciding to spin a team out into motion development? The core (by far) 360 audience is still what it was before Kinect came out.

True - but I can totally see DoubleFine or some equally awesome developer farming out their version of Tim Schaeffer to develop the next KILLER AP for Kinect because of the "ZOMG HUGE INSTALL BASE" (Kinect did sell over a million units already) thereby robbing, say, I dunno, Rage or something of some really needed creative direction. The point: I don't want Peter Molyneux (shut up.) working on Black and White: Hand Edition (Shit, then again, maybe I do....seems like a Strategy God-game is a good place to go with Kinect what with gesture recognition and all....)

To Zod: Resources =/= budget

Ahem.

it could potentially start chipping away at dev budget

[Chardok]

Think about that a bit more. Why would it have any impact at all, outside of a mainstream developer deciding to spin a team out into motion development? The core (by far) 360 audience is still what it was before Kinect came out.

True - but I can totally see DoubleFine or some equally awesome developer farming out their version of Tim Schaeffer to develop the next KILLER AP for Kinect because of the "ZOMG HUGE INSTALL BASE" (Kinect did sell over a million units already) thereby robbing, say, I dunno, Rage or something of some really needed creative direction. The point: I don't want Peter Molyneux (shut up.) working on Black and White: Hand Edition (Shit, then again, maybe I do....seems like a Strategy God-game is a good place to go with Kinect what with gesture recognition and all....)

To Zod: Resources =/= budget

Ahem.

it could potentially start chipping away at dev budget

Well slap my ass and call me sally, I AM a moron!

[Chardok]

Dude, Kinect is like 2M of 45M Xboxes. Anyone threatened by that is an idiot.

So FAR - But with the rate they're selling the damn things, I can see how they would feel threatened.