Korean situation thread

[ShadowDragon8685]

Metahive, you are really depraved, you know that?

"Trolling," as practiced by a country, is talking smack. Trolling, as practiced by a country, is saying "Let's negotiate what you want" and then giving the other guy an impossible list of demands beginning with all of their claimed territory, and smiling smugly. Trolling, as practiced by a country, is marching a batallion of men up to the line, having them about face and drop trou.

These are murderous acts of aggression, not trolling.

[Artemas]

it seems clear that the south is being humiliated by these attacks, otherwise they would not have fired their defence minister

[Chaotic Neutral]

So just to get a gauge of the opinion here, how many people would support a first strike to overthrow Kim and start the reintegration of Korea by force?

One here.

The deaths of a few First-Worlders are worth saving millions of North Koreans from starvation.

[Phantasee]

You know, I'm not so sure that what the South is doing counts as appeasement. Appeasement would be if the North Koreans were like, "Yo, give us food and energy or we'll ruin your shit" and the South meekly complying. What the South appears to be doing is "Oh, that shit again? Throw them some canned beans, maybe it'll shut them up for a few months." That's more like "putting up with" than "appeasing."

[Metahive]

Metahive, you are really depraved, you know that?

Says the guy who has no moral qualms against deploying ABC weapons. You're one to talk about moral depravity, takes one to know one I presume.

"Trolling," as practiced by a country, is talking smack. Trolling, as practiced by a country, is saying "Let's negotiate what you want" and then giving the other guy an impossible list of demands beginning with all of their claimed territory, and smiling smugly. Trolling, as practiced by a country, is marching a batallion of men up to the line, having them about face and drop trou.

Good thing we have such an expert on international relations among us who exactly knows what "trolling" between countries is supposed to look like. Say, were you involved in writing the Charter of International Trolldom? Would explain your constant mental diarrhea here.

These are murderous acts of aggression, not trolling.

And I already told you already a billion times, for South Korea it's trolling and since its their lives and well-being on the stake, their assessment is what matters, not yours.

Hey, at least you kept that one mercifully short.

[Metahive]

it seems clear that the south is being humiliated by these attacks, otherwise they would not have fired their defence minister

That was because the military response was found to be handled inadequately slow, not because the Norks were scoring any sort of big prestige victory.

The deaths of a few First-Worlders are worth saving millions of North Koreans from starvation.

Have you not been paying attention? A "few first-worlders" dying is not an accurate win-loss assessment of a potential war on the peninsula FFS!

[Chaotic Neutral]

Have you not been paying attention? A "few first-worlders" dying is not an accurate win-loss assessment of a potential war on the peninsula FFS!

As long as the war ends with millions of starving people eating, having South Korea and the US curbstomp North Korea is worth it no matter what the expense is.

[Ritterin Sophia]

So just to get a gauge of the opinion here, how many people would support a first strike to overthrow Kim and start the reintegration of Korea by force?

I would only support a strike to take out the DPRK leadership if it was in direct retaliation against an attack and if it was at the ROK's urging.

[Metahive]

As long as the war ends with millions of starving people eating, having South Korea and the US curbstomp North Korea is worth it no matter what the expense is.

O great, another fervent Civ 4 player with no sense of reality, nice. I mean, of course, the South and the US will just killfuck all the obsolete spearmen of the North with their Abrams tanks in seconds and then food will magically appear on all tables in North Korea, it's just that simple and easy!



And "no matter what the expense is", again, a statement casually thrown in by someone with no personal stake in the matter, bah.

[Prannon]

Have you not been paying attention? A "few first-worlders" dying is not an accurate win-loss assessment of a potential war on the peninsula FFS!

As long as the war ends with millions of starving people eating, having South Korea and the US curbstomp North Korea is worth it no matter what the expense is.

Including me? I've been reading some of the opinions being thrown around and there is definitely a lot more at stake than just some lives and some property. There's protocol also in the mix, and a nation's duty to its citizens.

I'm a United States national living in Seoul, South Korea on a visa issued to me by the South Korean government. The United States has a responsibility not to take hasty actions that would endanger my life. Having investigated the embassy website for Korea, the US has also taken some responsibility for making sure that if there were a war, I would be safely removed from the combat zone. So, knowing that, I think that the US has assumed and should assume the responsibility for my safety while I am so close to a potential war zone. I certainly do not want my country to treat this matter with black and white flippance, to say nothing about the other hundreds of thousands of foreign nationals from the US, Canada, Britain, Australia, and various other countries all across the globe that would be in the line of fire in the event of war.

Then there's South Korea, which by issuing me a visa granting me employment here, has taken some responsibility for my welfare as a guest of their nation. I'm enrolled in South Korea's health care system. I'm in the national pension fund for my severance when I leave next year. I would certainly like for South Korea not to take flippant actions that would result in my death, or the death of the dozens of young children I teach, which is to say nothing about the responsibility it has to the safety of its citizens and economy.

All of this is to say that a nation's first responsibility is to its own citizens and their safety and well being. This whole humanitarian freedomization stuff - while it has good intentions - is the same sort of justification thrown around during the Afghan and Iraqi conflicts by either dubious or extremely naive men who didn't consider all the extenuating factors of the conflicts they were getting into. Humanitarian reasons should never be the primary reason you go to war. And certainly, as impossible as the situation may seem, I do not believe that war is the only way out of this situation.

[Ritterin Sophia]

O great, another fervent Civ 4 player with no sense of reality, nice.

I think something needs to be made clear, are you trying to convince people of your position or do you just want to alienate anyone who may otherwise change their mind?


Edit: Also, I have some news.
Reuters

(Reuters) - South Korea's military said sounds of distant artillery fire were heard on Friday from within North Korea, and a Reuters witness said he saw smoke rising from inland North Korea.

South Korea's YTN television said the shells appeared to have landed north of a disputed maritime border in North Korean waters and the military does not believe the firing was aimed at the South.

Four people on the South Korean island of Yeonpyeong including two civilians were killed in an artillery attack by the North on Tuesday where dozens of shells landed on the island.

North Korea said it was responding to live fire from South Korea within its waters. (Reporting by Jack Kim; Editing by Nick Macfie)

Looks to me the North Koreans are putting the South in a rock and a hard place, either they respond or the obviously provocative move will cause them to lose faith and look weak, or the South looks like hypocrites for attacking what seems to be a training exercise.

[Phantasee]

Why do you hate freedom, Prannon? Aren't you Texans supposed to be gung-ho to lay down your lives for freedom? I mean, if all it takes is a few cracked eggs...

[Formless]

O great, another fervent Civ 4 player with no sense of reality, nice.

I think something needs to be made clear, are you trying to convince people of your position or do you just want to alienate anyone who may otherwise change their mind?

Just to make it clear, you do realize that not everyone who needs convincing is interested in posting a comment in the thread, right?

Oh, but I guess lurkers and fence-sitters don't exist! Only people who participate in the thread are important to the discussion!

He's convinced myself and Prannon just fine. Take the backseat modding and shove it up your tiny uptight asshole.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Just to make it clear, you do realize that not everyone who needs convincing is interested in posting a comment in the thread, right?

Oh, but I guess lurkers and fence-sitters don't exist! Only people who participate in the thread are important to the discussion!

He's convinced myself and Prannon just fine. Take the backseat modding and shove it up your tiny uptight asshole.

Would you like to point out where I said he was alienating everyone? For all you know, I may be talking about others like myself who are undecided about what to do. It's not backseat modding to request someone to try and make their arguments more persuasive than polarizing, which Prannon proved just fine.

cause them to lose faith

That should be 'cause them to lose face'.

[Prannon]

Why do you hate freedom, Prannon? Aren't you Texans supposed to be gung-ho to lay down your lives for freedom? I mean, if all it takes is a few cracked eggs...

Ohhh the stereotypes I must deal with. Maybe I'm just one of those weenie Texans who crumples into a ball the moment his gun is taken from him. "But they wouldn't let me import my cache of 21 shot guns, 16 hand guns, and 36 hunting rifles into the country! I can't sleep at night for fear of my safety!"

Actually, I'm probably one of those rarer breeds of Texan who went to college and actually reconsidered all of the political stuff I was indoctrinated into as a boy. Living abroad also tends to broaden the mind, especially when the health care system and mass transportation of the country you move to is noticeably better and more convenient than the one you left behind. But that is an entirely different topic.

Oh, and for the record, I never needed any convincing. I've been living here for almost two years. I'm willing to bet that I know what's at stake better than most people on the board.

[Metahive]

I think something needs to be made clear, are you trying to convince people of your position or do you just want to alienate anyone who may otherwise change their mind?

I call delusional idiots who think that a war on the peninsula will be a nice and quick affair and end with North Koreans dining from filled tables to the tune of America Fuck Yeah what I want.
Cease this transparent attempt of concern trolling now.

[Ritterin Sophia]

I call delusional idiots who think that a war on the peninsula will be a nice and quick affair and end with North Koreans dining from filled tables to the tune of America Fuck Yeah what I want.
Cease this transparent attempt of concern trolling now.

Who said it would be a quick and easy affair?

[That NOS Guy]

As long as the war ends with millions of starving people eating, having South Korea and the US curbstomp North Korea is worth it no matter what the expense is.

and how many million dead?

Let's put it this way, a war would ruin Korea as a whole, the economic engine of the south, not to mention the massive guerrilla campaign in the North post-war, among other sundry things (and let's assume NBC weapons aren't thrown everywhere leading to massive long-lasting environmental damage). As opposed to letting the DPRK collapse by itself, which is an issue in itself, but it becomes easier when you're not shooting your self in the foot economically. Actually, I take that back, you're not shooting yourself in your foot, you're becoming a quadriplegic on purpose.

Do you honestly not grasp that a war would just make an awe-inspiring problem even worse?

[Formless]

Would you like to point out where I said he was alienating everyone? For all you know, I may be talking about others like myself who are undecided about what to do. It's not backseat modding to request someone to try and make their arguments more persuasive than polarizing, which Prannon proved just fine.

And who are you to tell someone how he should and should not argue? This board still practices mockery whether or not you like it. Its unlikely anyone involved in this thread will change their minds over this until long after the conversation is over, save for guys like me who had no knowledge prior to the topic coming up, and that has nothing to do with whether the participants are being "polarizing" or not. Persuasion doesn't work the way you think it works.

[Prannon]

I dunno about anyone else, but I can't tell who's backseat modding. The guy asking someone else to make civil arguments, or the guy telling the other guy to cease and desist backseat modding as per moderator policy. *shrug*

[Ritterin Sophia]

And who are you to tell someone how he should and should not argue? This board still practices mockery whether or not you like it. Its unlikely anyone involved in this thread will change their minds over this until long after the conversation is over, save for guys like me who had no knowledge prior to the topic coming up. Persuasion doesn't work the way you think it works.

I'm not telling him to, I asked him to. There's quite a difference. There's also quite a difference between trying to hold a discussion with someone only for them to refuse to do so logically and insulting them, and going off half-cocked every chance you get.

[Metahive]

Agh, board software ate another of my posts.

Who said it would be a quick and easy affair?

O FFS, are you really not paying attention or just being a smarmy asshole?

As long as the war ends with millions of starving people eating, having South Korea and the US curbstomp North Korea is worth it no matter what the expense is.

There, enough to satisfy you? Or are you going to squabble about what exactly "curbstomp" means next?

[Formless]

I dunno about anyone else, but I can't tell who's backseat modding. The guy asking someone else to make civil arguments, or the guy telling the other guy to cease and desist backseat modding as per moderator policy. *shrug*

We could both very well be doing it, technically. Very meta, but nevertheless. I tire quickly of reading the same attempts to browbeat other posters coming from General Schatten entirely based on their rhetoric and not on the facts or arguments presented. That's not just against the rules, its obnoxious in its own right.

I'm not telling him to, I asked him to. There's quite a difference. There's also quite a difference between trying to hold a discussion with someone only for them to refuse to do so logically and insulting them, and going off half-cocked every chance you get.

Oh, sure, play the sophistry card. Its not like the mods don't phrase things as polite requests all the time when in fact they mean "stop the fuck right now, asshole" (particularly Thanas). Also, sorry to burst your bubble, but he HAS made logical arguments, in addition to the insults.

[Shroom Man 777]

These are murderous acts of aggression, not trolling.

And won't your supposed first/second/whatever strike and the subsequent large-scale military conflict also cause a whole lot of deaths, perhaps way more deaths than those killed in the last fifty plus years of random North Korean violence? The South Koreans apparently think your ideas are shit, and have thought your ideas are full of shit for the past fifty years. But don't mind me, continue ignoring this cause you're too thin-skinned to address people criticizing your long feces. Man, for a guy who advocates awesome first-strikes to decaffeinate the North Koreans, you sure are one big pussy. Disgusting!

As long as the war ends with millions of starving people eating, having South Korea and the US curbstomp North Korea is worth it no matter what the expense is.

What if the war doesn't end after nearly a decade of occupation and counter-insurgency, with North Korea turning into Super Iraq, having South Korea and the US go 'MISSION ACCOMPLISH' only to end up just like the Coalition in Afghanistan and Iraq facing all sorts of grueling years-long combat with bodies piling up, eh?

What will you say to those who are actually living there who don't want that to happen?

Are you also satisfied with how the USA curbstomped the Iraqis and Talibanis?


Jesus Christ, again I repeat myself - when do you people and ShadowDragonoids, who are safe and secure thousands of miles away from the potential warzone, get off advocating war and such shit when the people who actually live there don't want that because unlike you safe and secure fuckers, they're actually threatened by war and actually have to live with the consequences of such a conflict? You even have the gall call them "disgusting" when they handle the matter in a way that isn't as fucking retarded as you bunch of shitheads, because its apparently "disgusting" to want to avoid a large and destructive conflict.

Fuck.

[Ritterin Sophia]

O FFS, are you really not paying attention or just being a smarmy asshole?

-snip-

There, enough to satisfy you? Or are you going to squabble about what exactly "curbstomp" means next?

Taking out the KPA is the easiest part, saying that it would be easy to steamroll North Korea has been known for a while, the problem has always been the question of whether we're prepared to make the sacrifices for the part that comes after.

Oh, sure, play the sophistry card. Its not like the mods don't phrase things as polite requests all the time when in fact they mean "stop the fuck right now, asshole" (particularly Thanas). Also, sorry to burst your bubble, but he HAS made logical arguments, in addition to the insults.

Okay, I think I understand, only mods are allowed to make polite requests for civil conversation. They're the only people allowed to hold civil conversations. The rest of us should, nay are obligated to scream and yell past each other at every opportunity.

And as far as I can see it's mainly just calling everyone he disagrees with a name and misrepresent their actual position, which he's done throughout the thread.