I wonder what brought this on?MOSCOW (AFP) – Russia's parliament on Friday declared Stalin responsible for ordering the Katyn massacre of Polish officers in World War II, a crime Moscow spent decades blaming on the Nazis to the fury of Poland.
The resolution came amid reports that President Dmitry Medvedev intended to launch a major new "de-Stalinisation" drive that reminded Russians of the Soviet dictator's crimes and declassified once-secret information.
The resolution of the State Duma lower house of parliament broke more than half a century of official reluctance to admit that the Soviet leadership under Joseph Stalin ordered the killing of thousands of Polish officers in 1940.
The document conceded that history could no longer be ignored and that it was time to lay waste to the myths spread by "official Soviet propaganda".
"Materials that for many years have been kept in secret archives and have now been published not only show the extent of this terrible tragedy but show that that Katyn crime was carried out on the direct orders of Stalin and other Soviet leaders," the declaration said.
The statement was agreed at an unusually stormy two-hour session that featured virulent opposition from the minority Communist Party -- whose leaders still say the massacre could have been committed by the Nazis.
"I do not understand how we can make conclusions ... based on German evidence and (Joseph) Goebbels's claims," said a furious top Communist Party official, Viktor Ilyukhin.
But pro-Kremlin lawmakers hailed the "historic" outcome and Polish officials welcomed the vote as a vital first step in advance of the Russian leader's bridge-building visit to Warsaw next month.
"This is an important political step," said Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk.
"But the Polish government can't hide the fact that we are waiting for this gesture to be followed by more forthright (Russian) government steps," he was quoted as saying by Poland's news agency PAP.
President Bronislaw Komorowski, a close Tusk ally, echoed his premier's remarks.
"I consider this to be a positive signal sent by Moscow shortly before the visit of Russia's President Dmitry Medvedev to Warsaw," on December 6, Komorowski told PAP.
"I hope this vote will serve as a milestone for the Russian state," he added.
Polish Foreign Minister Radoslaw Sikorski hailed a "new step towards Polish-Russian reconciliation based on truth".
"I hope this political gesture will have legal consequences and allow light to be shed on all the cogs of this crime," he added.
Poland's opposition icon Lech Walesa said his country "should welcome the fact that, little by little, these painful, difficult issues between Poland and Russia are being sorted out".
"It's moving forward slowly, but it's moving forward," Poland's PAP news agency quoted the country's first post-Soviet leader as saying.
About 22,000 Polish officers were executed by the NKVD secret police around the Katyn forest of western Russia one year after Soviet troops invaded Poland under a secret pact with Germany.
The Soviet Union initially blamed the massacre on the Nazis and Moscow's guilt was only admitted by Mikhail Gorbachev just before the Soviet Union collapsed in 1990.
The crime was rarely again acknowledged in public until April 10 when a plane carrying Polish president Lech Kaczynski and a Polish official delegation, who were on their way to a memorial ceremony at Katyn, crashed and killed all on board. The tragedy brought a new rapprochement in Warsaw-Moscow ties.
Kaczynski's twin Jaroslaw Kaczynski, a former prime minister and leader of Poland's conservative opposition known for mistrusting Russia, gave a cautious welcome.
"It's a question of drawing the final conclusions, recognising guilt, asking for forgiveness and paying reparations," he said.
Russia has since handed over 20 volumes of Katyn documents to Poland and officials said Medvedev would highlight the deadly role played by the NKVD when he launches a new drive to debunk the Soviet version of history next year.
"Will this project give an evaluation of specific organisations? Yes, I think so," the Kremlin's human rights envoy Yury Fedotov told Interfax.
Medvedev's campaign bears similarities to one launched in the 1950s by Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev -- who not only denounced Stalin's cult of personality but even removed his body from Lenin's Mausoleum on Red Square.
News reports said that Medvedev would declassify all secret Soviet archives and the millions of case files compiled on regular civilians by the police.
But Katyn remains a particularly sensitive subject in Russia and the Duma took pains Friday to adopt language that also acknowledged the Soviet losses.
"Thousands of Soviet citizens destroyed by the Stalin regime in 1936-38 remain buried in the ditches of Katyn," said the Duma document.
"The technology of conducting mass murders was perfected on these people and then applied against the Polish servicemen at the same place," the statement added.
Russia admits Stalin ordered Katyn massacre of Poles
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Russia admits Stalin ordered Katyn massacre of Poles
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Re: Russia admits Stalin ordered Katyn massacre of Poles
When something like this happens, what do all the deniers do? Do they quietly stop denying it or do they become ever more radical, because obviously Russia is under the UN thumb or something?
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Re: Russia admits Stalin ordered Katyn massacre of Poles
The best that I can say is that someone in Russia just decided it was worth doing. I'd think improved relations with Poland would be beneficial for Russia. Also, Russia's responsibility is hardly a secret, so they are not going to loose anything over this.
As for deniers, I would expect that Stark's latter suggestion is the most likely. Some will probably accept it, though I doubt there will be many deniers who would do that.
As for deniers, I would expect that Stark's latter suggestion is the most likely. Some will probably accept it, though I doubt there will be many deniers who would do that.
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Re: Russia admits Stalin ordered Katyn massacre of Poles
The death of the Polish President months ago probably. According to the article the President was heading to Russia for a memorial of the Katyn massacre. Considering everyone on that plane died I guess Medvedev wanted to do something for the Poles.hongi wrote:I wonder what brought this on?
Re: Russia admits Stalin ordered Katyn massacre of Poles
Moved, as news about History usually end up in History.
Good for Russia and I applaud them. I hope this is not the only instance of this happening - the Russian secrecy is really frustrating when you want to do research in that area.
Good for Russia and I applaud them. I hope this is not the only instance of this happening - the Russian secrecy is really frustrating when you want to do research in that area.
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Re: Russia admits Stalin ordered Katyn massacre of Poles
Didn't Russia (technically, the USSR at that time) hand over the full package of Katyn documents to Poland in the early 1990s anyway? Which even led to a peculiar situation where Poland had more original documents on hand than Russia. *wondering* I'm not sure what this "admitting" means if the fact was admitted for 20 years already.
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Re: Russia admits Stalin ordered Katyn massacre of Poles
It was never admitted by the Parliament or the political leadership. Only the latest visit changed that.
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Re: Russia admits Stalin ordered Katyn massacre of Poles
Well, the documents certainly didn't stop some people from denying the Soviets being responsible. Don't think this will, either.
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Re: Russia admits Stalin ordered Katyn massacre of Poles
It's not really that surprising: as others said, Russia doesn't loose anything politically by admitting this - hell, they gain a lot, actually.hongi wrote: I wonder what brought this on?
Relations have been thawing for a while now. It probably helps that we are no longer ruled by a paranoid lunatic of a PM who wanted to be "hard" in foreign policy towards Russia. Heh.
Anyway, there's a gas deal in the works which has the EU worried (because it's a bilateral agreement that goes somewhat against the unified energy policy), so the Russian government might've felt the need to throw Poland a bone so that we're less likely to bow the pressure from Brussels. And since Katyn is a very emotional issue for pretty much every Pole, it's one hell of a nice, juicy bone. And it costs Russia exactly 0.0 roubles
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Re: Russia admits Stalin ordered Katyn massacre of Poles
You are certainly right about that. There are still plenty of people in Russia who think that Stalin was a good guy, and they don't mean just by winning the Great Patriotic War but overall.Omeganian wrote:Well, the documents certainly didn't stop some people from denying the Soviets being responsible. Don't think this will, either.
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Re: Russia admits Stalin ordered Katyn massacre of Poles
According to FOM, the opinion on Stalin ("positive-negative") is split roughly 50-50 (36% vs. 29%, IIRC). However, at the same time 60% of people acknowledge the repressions. More than that, the questions on the XXth CPSU Congress have demonstrated that among people who generally give a positive evaluation of Stalin's rule - overall - 50% consider the XXth Congress and de-Stalinization an overall beneficial process for the nation.
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Re: Russia admits Stalin ordered Katyn massacre of Poles
Call me cynical, but this is probably the reason. There are possibly 3 trillion of cubic meters of shale gas under Poland, which are now being developed. This will massively undercut Russia's gas monopoly over Europe. Since the Kremlin considers gas exports to be a political tool, you can see how they are threatened by this (not to mention that Gazprom wants a piece of the gas pie).
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Re: Russia admits Stalin ordered Katyn massacre of Poles
BTW, where in Poland are the shale gas reserves located?
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Re: Russia admits Stalin ordered Katyn massacre of Poles
Here!Pelranius wrote:BTW, where in Poland are the shale gas reserves located?
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Re: Russia admits Stalin ordered Katyn massacre of Poles
Thanks. I have this obsession with noting where natural resources are located.
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Re: Russia admits Stalin ordered Katyn massacre of Poles
Ha ha, one man's cynicism is anothers healthy dose of reality.fgalkin wrote:Call me cynical, but this is probably the reason. There are possibly 3 trillion of cubic meters of shale gas under Poland, which are now being developed. This will massively undercut Russia's gas monopoly over Europe. Since the Kremlin considers gas exports to be a political tool, you can see how they are threatened by this (not to mention that Gazprom wants a piece of the gas pie).
Have a very nice day.
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I guess it was too much to hope that the Russian leaders just spontaneously decided to come clean on the issue.
Still, good to show that they realize the benefit of the carrot, as well as the stick.
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Re: Russia admits Stalin ordered Katyn massacre of Poles
^There really was no need to add meaningless spam to a topic that was dead for over four weeks.
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A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
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A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
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My LPs