Man, this thing has taken off like greased lightning!
adam_grif wrote:More specifically, where's the proof that you can siphon off significantly more than the terawatt or petawatt-range from the thing at once -- especially in a usable manner (e.g., pumping a decent fraction of that power to an energy weapon)?
The reasoning is as follows:
- The total energy capacity of a ZPM is known to be very high
- The Replicator beam weapon will take however long it was (19 or 29 hours or something) to
drain the energy of the ZPM.
Got it on the second swing -- 29 hours
Now, I downloaded the transcript of this episode and I read it beginning to end. Nothing ever said, "The shield will fail in 29 hours because the ZPM will run out of juice."
It doesn't really matter. In no way does it
disprove Brian's calculations.
*snip for time*
However, what we see is that the more powerful the weapon striking the shields, the faster the shields are penetrated (1 beam from this destroys the shield far, far, far faster than a fleet of 10 massive warships and numerous escorts constantly bombarding all over with weapons). The implication seems to be that the harder the shields get hit, the faster the power drains from the ZPM to keep it active.
That makes sense enough to me. It still doesn't speak to a 1:1 power consumption/defense value.
In an episode that I believe Batman mentioned, a ZPM is drained of most of its power in a matter of minutes. That is to say, that, at least up to a certain point, ZPM's can be drained arbitrarily fast (I acknowledge that limits certainly must exist somewhere, but are probably more to do with the capacity to shift the power around via conduits rather than a limit on the ZPM outputting it itself).
Perhaps it's something like that.
In my research, I see Necronlord came up with an upper-limit for the amount of energy one could use from a ZPM, at least in the context of flying Atlantis. You can see that post
here.
Regardless, unless he was wrong, we're talking about an upper-limit in the 10,000 TW range for a
single ZPM.
(And yes, I see Necron's new post. We'll revise things as needed later.)
That was awfully long winded, but what I'm trying to say is that the ZPM's are not fixed at a certain, very low level of power output.
We're spoiled by some "literary" sci-fi and the likes of Star Wars, but terawatt laser-like weapons are by no means "low-level," especially given that the protagonists in Stargateverse are modern humans who have inherited alien technology.
A naive estimate assuming no inefficiencies in the draining of the ZPM at a higher rate where it was going to take 29 hours to drain a ZPM could be gained by assuming that a ZPM is a low-end extinction level event for total energy, and dividing by time
Let's take a closer look at that.
First, let's assume that, at maximum capacity, a ZPM contains an Earth-like planet's minimal shattering energy of 5E16 megatons. We could easily go higher for the nova-level events we hear about (but never actually
see 
), but let's go with this figure to try and keep the numbers a little more manageable.
Also to that end, let's assume that, right before the Asuran satellite attacks, Atlantis' ZPM is severely depleted, down to perhaps 5E12 MT (2E28J).
We'll further pretend that shields must meet every incoming watt with a watt. Let's also go ahead and say that 29 hours of running Atlantis' shield would, in fact, drain the ZPM dry.
Okay: so what's 20.9 quadrillion terajoules divided by however many seconds are in 29 hours?
2E23W. About 200 billion terawatts or 5E7 megatons/sec.
From that, we're forced to conclude some other things:
*The Asuran satellite beam that Oberoth clearly states is intended to destroy Atlantis must be hellaciously powerful. It'd have to be to challenge Super Star Destroyer *coughs*, I mean, *Atlantis-calibre* shields. It's pretty odd that it took awhile to slowly carve through an asteroid, eh? Maybe it IS a special shield-killer, and only has 0.00000000002% effect against mundane rock.
Yes, that's it!
But, wait a minute ...
This super powerful shield-killer was going to take 29 hours to breach Atlantis' defenses. That's a pretty shitty shield-killing beam, innit?
I'd say so. A beam configured to burn through shields that takes twenty nine fucking hours to do the job is LAUGHABLE. Did any of you guys even CONSIDER how self-contradictory that is before you jumped on the excuse train?
*Where does all of this shield energy GO?
If it's radiated off the shield's surface into the atmosphere, I wouldn't want to be nearby (as in "on that planet"). Maybe it's somehow converted into neutrinos.
*If the shields are this powerful, why would they ever be threatened by ... well, ANYTHING the bad guys could ever throw at them? I've seen some people at other websites furiously fapping away over some teraton level devices detonated on Asura. Funny thing is, those guys pull out all the stops in fancy, even beautiful graphics and math ... but they overlook something so simple, so elementary as FIREBALL DURATION.
Maybe after they're done jacking off I could remind them that a teraton-level device detonated in an atmosphere would glow brightly for almost THIRTY-EIGHT MINUTES! And the ejecta ... LOL. You'd see molten material from the crust jetting out into space like a geyser.
That reminds me ... we should take stock of the things invented in this thread to date:
1. Beam that's expressly built to kill shields but blows elephant cock for that purpose
1a. Beam that can switch from shield-killer to Atlantis-cooker (I guess Oberoth just pushes a button?)
2. Oberoth's button
3. Neutrino converter for shields such that running them doesn't rapidly bring about extinction-level events
4. A million megaton explosion with megaton-ranged fireball durations (i.e., 10-20 seconds)
The last one doesn't count since I'm bringing up other sites, but I couldn't help myself. Inventing things is FUN!
*snip*
But back on topic, this is brought up because although the Ori have another, similar black hole in their own galaxy to provide power to a super-stargate they are building (that is large enough to accommodate massive warships), they cannot provide enough power through the stargate to do it remotely.
This implies that there is a very strict limit on how much energy the wormhole can transmit to the other side, i.e., the replicator beam may have been at "max capcaity" for all that the stargate would transmit. This is to say, they couldn't fire harder not because they didn't have the firepower, but because there was a bottleneck.
You know, Adam, I don't really have a big problem with the notion that you can "get" more out of a ZPM than a few terawatts for given applications (like taking off into space).
My chief concern is that nobody's demonstrated why a 4 TW beam simply cannot be a threat. I'm told it "can't be" because incidents like Atlantis' shield handling a nuclear blast. More on that in a moment.
If you're going to play the magical physics card, at least allow us to use it too. We've been trying for this whole thread after all
I'm not trying to play any card; we don't know how the shield works so, at best, we might say, "IF it works like this, then ... ". There's no proof that it takes 10 watts of shield energy to cope with 10 watts of incoming energy, but one of your arguments *hinges* on that. Remember? You said the satellite's shields can potentially field X; therefore, the beam should output X or greater.
That's too big an "if" to boldly declare we should ignore Brian's figures -- or, for that matter, far too big an "if" to
ever consider a retarded, purely fanon "shield-draining weapon" so inefficient it takes more than a DAY to do its job.
The assumption all parties have had so far going in is that the energy that the shield absorbs must be matched by power generation. Joules in = Joules out in order for the shield to work. Now, there are any number of magical shields you could come up with that do NOT operate on this principle, but it's the only way we can make things calculable at all.
If we're forced to make a bunch of unwarranted assumptions, that
defeats the purpose of a calculation in the first place!
Maybe shields do need to output a terawatt to defend against a terawatt laser striking them. That makes sense a kind of intuitive sense; however, as I've said many times now, if someone is trying to dismiss OBSERVED EVIDENCE willy-nilly, he had better not do so on the basis of a complete unknown.
That the calculations drawn here are not accurate because of magical physics has been our argument all along, so welcome to the team
That's the trouble. The magical physics, horrendously inefficient shield-blasting beam is based in circular logic.
That beam cannot be only 4 TW!
Why not?
Because if it were, it'd never threaten Atlantis.
How do you know that?
Because it takes more firepower to threaten those shields!
Maybe if someone had shown where a much more powerful beam couldn't defeat the shields in 29 hours, y'all would have a point. Instead, we get a bunch of invalid comparisons to less-intense weapons like bombs and a whole bunch of wild-assed stuff about ZPMs blowing up planets. Basically, a whole fish market's worth of red herrings.
As for the relative lack of steam, the simplest explanation is that the beam didn't interact with the water all that much. It might've been visible, yes, but it DID behave a lot like a laser, so that's understandable enough.
If you don't even need to match the thing hitting you in order to "neutralize" it, then does this not imply that Altantis' shields are even more pathetic than the calculations originally derived here? If anything, that statement would make it MORE likely that this is using shield draining mumbo jumbo, because the Replicator sat is apparently capable of tanking 30 megatonne blasts but Daedelus isn't even capable of a tiny fraction of that, almost destroyed by a glancing blow from this supposedly "barely kilotonne" level weapon.
It would low-ball the ZPM's power even more for similar reasons.
Appeal to consequences. We go where the evidence takes us, not where it makes us happy.
By the way, I was most generous with that 30 megaton estimate. It's dishonest to act as if it's anything but what it was meant to be: a potential upper-limit based on the POSSIBILITY that "nuke" meant "the biggest anti-ship nuke ever fielded by Earth" could get very close to that little satellite. I could've really held your feet to the fire over that "Earth has used 1200 megaton devices before against ships; therefore, they MUST have them on that ship to use against the satellite" foolishness. Instead, I offered a highly generous figure.
Here again, we're on mighty shaky ground to try and challenge something we actually see and can quantify.
Did you just calculate the energy as spread over the entire shield of atlantis? Because the very peak of the shield at the top should have been taking the brunt of the explosion, as it was detonated quite literally within a few meters above the shield.
I retract my apology for nitpicking. I was right to question you about something as subjective as "right on top."
This is the first frame of detonation. That's more than a "few meters."
At its highest point, the shield isn't much taller than the central tower, which we can still make out in this image (black line). The distance from there to the center of the explosion's appreciable.
Note that the explosion is even with the lowest clouds we see. Stratus clouds begin ~2 km above sea level. I don't think Atlantis is a kilometer high. Based on Necronlord's scaling, it's roughly one-quarter that, and the shield itself isn't much taller.
Consequently, Atlantis' shield is on the order of some 1.5 kilometers from the center of the blast.
The fireball lasts just over 8 seconds, corresponding to something between 3 and 4 megatons. I'll assume the latter to be nice.
That means the shields successfully coped with 592 MJ/m^2. Running with Necron's estimations again, that means the shield dealt with about 350 kilotons. Close to 800 KT if the bomb detonated inside a kilometer, which it did not.
Nitpick the particulars to your heart's content; it won't change the order of magnitude we're looking at here. Just as you figured, we're dealing with a single-digit megaton nuke. And at the distance it blew up, it could only impart about 10 percent of its total energy to Atlantis' shield.
Now, let's start over. You still wanna tell me that a 4 terawatt beam couldn't defeat those shields after many, many hours of constant bombardment?
"Intensity" of the beam and "burning out the emitters" was never mentioned as a possible problem in the episode,
Hohoho
You do not want to go down that road, my good man
Should you want to stick to dialogue-supported bits alone, as Michael once said, I'll cling to that approach like a drowning man to flotsam.
Do I really need to explain why?
it was reasonably clear to me that the beam was a threat because it was draining power from the ZPM. Am I correct in assuming that you're suggesting that higher intensity beams drain power faster to counter?
If so, then, once again, his calculations on ZPM power based on total energy in being "blocked" by the shield may be misleading for the exact same reason it might have been if it was a technobabble beam to begin with - the ZPM is not really being drawn to anything approaching it's actual full capacity, but rather being artificially shortened in lifespan because of some property of the beam other than pure energy value.
Huh? Whose-its calculations on ZPMs based on this blocked E's off-base because if it was a shield-draining beam that blows goats for draining shields, the ZPM isn't heavily taxed and something-something.
Granted, I'm still blinking the sleep from my eyes and I'm being a dick, but in a couple dozen words or less, can you tell me how that disproves Brian's 4 TW estimate?
Are you trying to imply that Altantis' shields are not even strong enough to stand up to 29 hours of something that barely boils water?
You're appealing to consequences again. And I must say, this gives me flashbacks. "You're trying to make B5 out as 'weak'!" was a running accusation at Spacebattles for YEARS.
Range limitations isn't a perfect explanation, but it's still a more rational excuse than many of the things you, Chris et al. have offered. It invokes less terms and fits more of the facts at hand. It still involves a lot MORE firepower than we see on many occasions, and from some of those "ancient" races no less. I looked up a SG-related thread in which you not only participated, you even pointed out how pathetic one Ha'tak's weaponry (?) was!
I can find the thread again if you like. Posters compared the bombardment with the Borg sphere's from "ST:FC."
Low megajoule-range? Ooh, that Asuran terawatt beam looks a sight tastier now.
Besides, if I REALLY wanted to take the piss out of SG, I'd remind you and everyone else that the satellite's beam would be closer to the 10 GIGAWATTS Destructionator mentioned a few pages back. (I see no one wanted to touch that one.
) Beam weapons generally aren't as good at breaking up asteroids as our trusty buried explosives of equivalent energy. A kiloton bomb will shatter a 100m asteroid convincingly, but a 4.18 TW beam won't.
'Course, the asteroid in "First Strike" is NOT 100m wide. It's little more than half that. As D13 said, nailing
it with 4 TW should do a serious number on the rock. Hitting it square in the middle for a second or two would almost certainly blow it apart.
As a matter of fact, perhaps we should start anew and replace any mention of 4 terawatts with .01 TW. I fancy that
Look, I'll state again for the record that all of our unwillingness to believe that ZPMs are so crap is NOT related to fanboyish concerns of "oh no it will be too weak and star wars will crush it" or whatever. It's there because the Stargate Verse, as whole, does not seem in any way consistent with those energy levels.
I dunno, Adam. It sure seems like some of you are being decidedly fanboyish on this one. You outright
made up a beam with properties that are not only unheard of in Stargate. Even worse, let's not bullshit here: you are all intelligent men, but all this talk about shield-zapper that takes twenty-nine hours to do the damned deed? That is a STUPID proposition.
To date, the only objections I've seen are the ones Brian's already mentioned. You compare bombs and ZPMs supposedly blowing up planets with a laser-like beam.
Baffling.
The bottom line -- and essentially my only concern from here on -- is this: if someone can cite good evidence why Brian's Replicator beam figure's wrong, please, do so. If you're going to invoke some convoluted comparison with a bunch of if this, then maybe that reasoning, we might best go ahead and agree to disagree. I've jumped through several hoops already quantifying things when the burden of proof was NOT on Brian or me. I imagine he feels the same.
