Stalin and the Ukraine

[Vehrec]

So, on one side of my family is an uncle by marriage who's father survived the Ukrainian famine of 32-33. Needless to say, the old codger has some VERY STRONG opinions on Hitler, Stalin, who was worse and Obama's communist tendencies and how it's all happening again here. For now, I'm limiting our discussions to the first points. I'm tiered of debating based on my half-remembered facts and his argument from 'My father was there and his father was sent to Siberia and when he came back he told his sons to keep their mouths shut or get out'. Sources on the famine, Stalin's purges in general and Hitler's plans for the Soviet union would all be appreciated.

[K. A. Pital]

A good place to start with famine overview and statistics would be "Years of Hunger: Soviet Agriculture 1931-1933" (Wheatcroft, Davies), some data is available here. Also, Stalin, Grain Stocks and the Famine of 1932-1933.

Purges/repression in general: Victims of the Soviet Penal System in the Pre-War Years: A First Approach on the Bases of Archival Evidence is a good place to start. Using Google translate to work with Demoscope special articles on 1930's purges is also a good idea: Repressions in the USSR.

As for Hitler's plans... I wrote some stuff here Nazi GPO, Nazi treatment of Soviet POWs, etc.

[fgalkin]

If his opinions against Stalin are based on Holodomor, than I'm sure he will appreciate this, once you point it out to him

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunger_Plan

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Vehrec]

You don't understand, his grandfather was sent to Siberia, and his father actually enlisted UNDER THE GERMANS so strong is the familial hate for all things soviet. I'm not sure that the Hunger Plan is enough to turn this guy around, given past history..

[K. A. Pital]

The History forum can't "change opinions", anyhow. It can point one to the facts and documents, but that's about it. The conclusions everyone makes for himself.

[Slacker]

My wife's grandparents all have a similar view on Stalin. They're Jewish, so it's not like they feel like Hitler was any better, but from what little I understand of Russian the things her grandmother said about Stalin shouldn't come out of the mouth of an 83 year old woman.

On the other hand, they all loved Zhukov. Timoshenko, too, but they really loved Zhukov. I think it's because he was commander of the 2nd Ukrainian Front at the time their group of partisans were liberated and her grandfather was inducted into the regular forces.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

So, on one side of my family is an uncle by marriage who's father survived the Ukrainian famine of 32-33. Needless to say, the old codger has some VERY STRONG opinions on Hitler, Stalin, who was worse and Obama's communist tendencies and how it's all happening again here. For now, I'm limiting our discussions to the first points. I'm tiered of debating based on my half-remembered facts and his argument from 'My father was there and his father was sent to Siberia and when he came back he told his sons to keep their mouths shut or get out'. Sources on the famine, Stalin's purges in general and Hitler's plans for the Soviet union would all be appreciated.

When did they come out of Russia? It's really hard to have a productive conversation on the facts of such things with someone who has spent their entire life in emigre circles, and if that's the case you should probably just ignore it.

[Slacker]

I know you were referring to Vehrec, but my wife's whole family came over after '91. Just as a point of comparison.

[Vehrec]

So, on one side of my family is an uncle by marriage who's father survived the Ukrainian famine of 32-33. Needless to say, the old codger has some VERY STRONG opinions on Hitler, Stalin, who was worse and Obama's communist tendencies and how it's all happening again here. For now, I'm limiting our discussions to the first points. I'm tiered of debating based on my half-remembered facts and his argument from 'My father was there and his father was sent to Siberia and when he came back he told his sons to keep their mouths shut or get out'. Sources on the famine, Stalin's purges in general and Hitler's plans for the Soviet union would all be appreciated.

When did they come out of Russia? It's really hard to have a productive conversation on the facts of such things with someone who has spent their entire life in emigre circles, and if that's the case you should probably just ignore it.

They left in the 40s, but I'm not sure when they arrived in the States other than a vague sense of 'probably in the 50s.' The one I'm arguing with was born in Germany, but he's got no appreciable accent.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

So, on one side of my family is an uncle by marriage who's father survived the Ukrainian famine of 32-33. Needless to say, the old codger has some VERY STRONG opinions on Hitler, Stalin, who was worse and Obama's communist tendencies and how it's all happening again here. For now, I'm limiting our discussions to the first points. I'm tiered of debating based on my half-remembered facts and his argument from 'My father was there and his father was sent to Siberia and when he came back he told his sons to keep their mouths shut or get out'. Sources on the famine, Stalin's purges in general and Hitler's plans for the Soviet union would all be appreciated.

When did they come out of Russia? It's really hard to have a productive conversation on the facts of such things with someone who has spent their entire life in emigre circles, and if that's the case you should probably just ignore it.

They left in the 40s, but I'm not sure when they arrived in the States other than a vague sense of 'probably in the 50s.' The one I'm arguing with was born in Germany, but he's got no appreciable accent.

Uhm, if they left in the 1940s, ended up in Germany, and then went to the US in the 1950s, it's entirely possible that your family was Nazi collaborators, as anything else would... frankly be damned unusual with that timeline. And no appreciable accent is normal; I mean, he was just a kid. My dad didn't have one, either.

[K. A. Pital]

When did they come out of Russia? It's really hard to have a productive conversation on the facts of such things with someone who has spent their entire life in emigre circles, and if that's the case you should probably just ignore it.

They left in the 40s, but I'm not sure when they arrived in the States other than a vague sense of 'probably in the 50s.' The one I'm arguing with was born in Germany, but he's got no appreciable accent.

Uhm, if they left in the 1940s, ended up in Germany, and then went to the US in the 1950s, it's entirely possible that your family was Nazi collaborators, as anything else would... frankly be damned unusual with that timeline. And no appreciable accent is normal; I mean, he was just a kid. My dad didn't have one, either.

Could've been unwillingly brought to Germany, too - what, 13 or 16 million people from Eastern Europe were hoarded to work for Germany's slave industry at the end of the war, and the drawing of Eastern Europeans to Germany started early enough, too. Some who were ardently anti-Soviet could've escaped to the USA after Nazi Germany kicked the bucket along with a whole bunch of genuine Nazi collaborators (by those I mean the ones who were aiding the Wehrmacht, SS or SD).

In the colossal number of displaced civilians the true collaborators are a drop in the bucket.

[General Trelane (Retired)]

They left in the 40s, but I'm not sure when they arrived in the States other than a vague sense of 'probably in the 50s.' The one I'm arguing with was born in Germany, but he's got no appreciable accent.

Were they ethnic Ukrainians? Or ethnic Germans?

[PeZook]

In the colossal number of displaced civilians the true collaborators are a drop in the bucket.

Plenty of Poles emigrated to the US right after the war, too via that exact route: they were displaced to Germany as slave labor, opted to stay in the west after the war and then left for the US some time later.

It's not an unusual or uncommon occurence at all.

[Vehrec]

Could've been unwillingly brought to Germany, too - what, 13 or 16 million people from Eastern Europe were hoarded to work for Germany's slave industry at the end of the war, and the drawing of Eastern Europeans to Germany started early enough, too. Some who were ardently anti-Soviet could've escaped to the USA after Nazi Germany kicked the bucket along with a whole bunch of genuine Nazi collaborators (by those I mean the ones who were aiding the Wehrmacht, SS or SD).

In the colossal number of displaced civilians the true collaborators are a drop in the bucket.

I think that joining up and fighting under the Nazis is a rather strong indicator of just how much the man in this case was collaborating. I have no way to ask him what his motivations were-he's been dead for years, but revenge was probably a strong part of it. If he was precognitive, he might have planned this, but I don't see how that really could have happened that he planned fighting with the Nazis until he could 'fall' into American hands.

Now his wife, on the other hand, was probably part of that general slave labor movement, but she's so frail and ancient I don't want to question her at all.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

He wasn't necessarily German. There were plenty of actual ethnic Russians who ended up fighting for the Germans, though they were mostly in the SS Cossack divisions. Though of course there was a very large number of ethnic Germans in Russia and a lot of the white emigres from the Civil War in Europe who fought for the Nazis were of ethnic German origin too--but not all of them.

Anyway, you're right about the slave labourers, but that's clearly not the case here, as Vehrec said.