Frago 242 - order condoning war crimes

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Frago 242 - order condoning war crimes

Post by Thanas »

Link to video
- WATCH THE VIDEO FIRST.


Lengthy article
A prisoner was kneeling on the ground, blindfolded and handcuffed, when an Iraqi soldier walked over to him and kicked him in the neck. A US marine sergeant was watching and reported the incident, which was duly recorded and judged to be valid. The outcome: "No investigation required."
[...]
Other logs record not merely assaults but systematic torture. A man who was detained by Iraqi soldiers in an underground bunker reported that he had been subjected to the notoriously painful strappado position: with his hands tied behind his back, he was suspended from the ceiling by his wrists. The soldiers had then whipped him with plastic piping and used electric drills on him. The log records that the man was treated by US medics; the paperwork was sent through the necessary channels; but yet again, no investigation was required.

This is the impact of Frago 242. A frago is a "fragmentary order" which summarises a complex requirement. This one, issued in June 2004, about a year after the invasion of Iraq, orders coalition troops not to investigate any breach of the laws of armed conflict, such as the abuse of detainees, unless it directly involves members of the coalition.
Where the alleged abuse is committed by Iraqi on Iraqi, "only an initial report will be made … No further investigation will be required unless directed by HQ".

Frago 242 appears to have been issued as part of the wider political effort to pass the management of security from the coalition to Iraqi hands. In effect, it means that the regime has been forced to change its political constitution but allowed to retain its use of torture.

The systematic viciousness of the old dictatorship when Saddam Hussein's security agencies enforced order without any regard for law continues, reinforced by the chaotic savagery of the new criminal, political and sectarian groups which have emerged since the invasion in 2003 and which have infiltrated some police and army units, using Iraq's detention cells for their private vendettas.

Hundreds of the leaked war logs reflect the fertile imagination of the torturer faced with the entirely helpless victim – bound, gagged, blindfolded and isolated – who is whipped by men in uniforms using wire cables, metal rods, rubber hoses, wooden stakes, TV antennae, plastic water pipes, engine fan belts or chains. At the torturer's whim, the logs reveal, the victim can be hung by his wrists or by his ankles; knotted up in stress positions; sexually molested or raped; tormented with hot peppers, cigarettes, acid, pliers or boiling water – and always with little fear of retribution since, far more often than not, if the Iraqi official is assaulting an Iraqi civilian, no further investigation will be required.

Most of the victims are young men, but there are also logs which record serious and sexual assaults on women; on young people, including a boy of 16 who was hung from the ceiling and beaten; the old and vulnerable, including a disabled man whose damaged leg was deliberately attacked. The logs identify perpetrators from every corner of the Iraqi security apparatus – soldiers, police officers, prison guards, border enforcement patrols.

There is no question of the coalition forces not knowing that their Iraqi comrades are doing this: the leaked war logs are the internal records of those forces.

There is no question of the allegations all being false. Some clearly are, but most are supported by medical evidence and some involve incidents that were witnessed directly by coalition forces.

The coalition's answer, laid out in Frago 242, is to find justice from the senior officers of the Iraqi security forces. It is to them that the coalition send their reports. But those reports suggest that senior officers frequently are part of the problem.


A police lieutenant whose men have been beating up three suspected drug dealers, is recorded as confiding to a US captain that "light beatings and the threat of beatings were often used to gain information from prisoners". A chief of police in Riyadh is confronted with evidence that numerous detainees have been abused by his men and that bloodstains and "suspected tools of torture" have been found in his own office: "He responded he was aware of the beatings and supported it as a method of conducting investigations."

In June 2009, coalition forces dealt with a prisoner who was bruised, shaken and tearful and who reported that a unit of Iraqi soldiers had beaten him on the soles of his feet and on his back and threatened him with sexual assault. The log continued: "This is not the first time that this battalion have been accused of alleged detainee abuse. There have been at least three previous accusations."

They then noted that on the very afternoon this latest alleged assault had occurred their own senior officers had been meeting the Iraqi brigade commanders who were responsible for this battalion and who claimed to have heard nothing about any detainee being abused. "Brigade has a duty to control their subordinate units; if they fail to do so, the alleged violence, if it is occurring at the battalion level, will undoubtedly continue."

And it does continue. With no effective constraint, the logs show, the use of violence has remained embedded in the everyday practice of Iraqi security, with recurrent incidents up to last December.
Most often, the abuse is a standard operating procedure in search of a confession, whether true or false. One of the leaked logs has a detainee being beaten with chains, cables and fists and then confessing to involvement in killing six people because "the torture was too much for him to handle".

Sometimes, the abuse is simply rough justice. When police catch a suspected bomb maker, they beat him up and, according to the log, allow a crowd of local people to join them in doing so. When a group of 10 officers pick up three drunken lads who have been stealing bananas, they tie them up and batter them severely.

TL; DR: The US Armed Forces adopted an official policy of "we do not give a damn" and allowed torture to happen or facilitated it by assisting Iraqi Security Forces. General Petraeus' top man is implicated in this and it would not surprise me if Petraeus himself did not condone this. Turns out the claims by Iraqis of widespread abuse at the hands of coalition forces were not enemy propaganda. What is worse, the American forces were engaged in a systematic coverup of such activities, in clear defiance of the rules of war.

I wonder how members of the US armed forces feel considering that they are now part of an organization that is condoning and facilitating war crimes?

It is also clear now why the USA continues to oppose the International Criminal Court, because the very existence of this order would be proof enough to haul the entire US chain of command in front of it as war criminals.


EDIT: Title edited for accuracy.
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Re: Frago 242 - order condoning war crimes by Petraeus staf

Post by Ryan Thunder »

It's this kind of thing that makes me wonder if American hypocrisy is deliberately and meticulously planned from the ground up to be as egregious, extensive, and, just for kicks, as counter-productive as possible.

What the hell could they possibly think they have to gain from this?
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Re: Frago 242 - order condoning war crimes by Petraeus staf

Post by Stark »

They just don't care, and once you start, everyone has to cover it up, and once you're covering it up, you need to keep going.

I mean, look up the Dreyfus affair. Once you start being dishonest, you need to keep lying or all the lies come out and you're fucked.
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Re: Frago 242 - order condoning war crimes

Post by Talhe »

Depressing. America went in to allegedly stop inhumane treatment, and now it's party to them. The next time I meet a Iraq War supporter I'm throwing this in their face.
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Re: Frago 242 - order condoning war crimes

Post by weemadando »

Talhe wrote:Depressing. America went in to allegedly stop inhumane treatment, and now it's party to them. The next time I meet a Iraq War supporter I'm throwing this in their face.
Good luck with that. They'll just tell you that they saved the world because they seized all those chemical and biological weapons.
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Re: Frago 242 - order condoning war crimes by Petraeus staf

Post by Drone »

How exactly are they war criminals? The Iraqis are their own seperate chain of command, are in their own country and have their own laws. Knowing about it and not stopping it is not a good thing, but it doesn't make them war criminals, especially if it was reported to someone higher in the Iraqi chain of command and left to them to fix. Frankly unless we're going to fight the entire war over again, that's probably all we're capable of doing.

Of course if US forces had been more heavy handed in stopping this we'dve just been considered big bullies picking on the weak new GOI, and if we didn't hand Iraqi citizens over to Iraqi officials we'd be accused of abducting Iraqi citizens. So apparently we can't win.
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Re: Frago 242 - order condoning war crimes

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If you turn people over to forces who are known to kill or torture prisoners, that is a war crime.
If you do not act on trustworthy sources (which seeing it with your own eyes count), you are guilty of a war crime.
If you offcially put in place policies whose aim it is to stop the investigations of war crimes, you are guilty of a war crime.
If you are the occupier and you knowingly allow forces under your command (and the Iraqi security forces were under at least factual command in 2004) to torture, then you can be held responsible.

Nobody had any difficulty holding this against past war criminals like the Nazis. That it is a sucky situation does not in any way invalidate this.
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Re: Frago 242 - order condoning war crimes

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Thanas wrote:If you turn people over to forces who are known to kill or torture prisoners, that is a war crime.
If you do not act on trustworthy sources (which seeing it with your own eyes count), you are guilty of a war crime.
If you offcially put in place policies whose aim it is to stop the investigations of war crimes, you are guilty of a war crime.
If you are the occupier and you knowingly allow forces under your command (and the Iraqi security forces were under at least factual command in 2004) to torture, then you can be held responsible.

Nobody had any difficulty holding this against past war criminals like the Nazis. That it is a sucky situation does not in any way invalidate this.
By which treaties that the US has signed?
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Re: Frago 242 - order condoning war crimes

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The Hague conventions, the international convention against torture, the Geneva conventions and the customary rules of war as exemplified in, among other things, the Nuremberg case law.

You might also want to read about command responsibility and the duty of care of the Occupier to those occupied.
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Re: Frago 242 - order condoning war crimes by Petraeus staf

Post by Broomstick »

Yes, well, when a government lies and falsifies evidence to start a war is anyone surprised when the shit snowballs?
Thanas wrote:I wonder how members of the US armed forces feel considering that they are now part of an organization that is condoning and facilitating war crimes?
I'm just hoping that folks here remember than quite a few of the "US armed forces", while forced to be in that war, are not perpetrators of such crimes. Quite a few of them don't want to be there, either, and are trying to do the right thing in a bad situation. I'd prefer that the guilty parties be found out and punished rather than the whole be flushed down the toilet, the innocent with the guilty, and that the shitstains who engage in this sort of thing are not allowed to hide behind collective guilt.

All of which is probably too much to hope for.

I'll leave Thanas to cover the legal details, as he's already doing much better at that than almost anyone else here could.
It is also clear now why the USA continues to oppose the International Criminal Court, because the very existence of this order would be proof enough to haul the entire US chain of command in front of it as war criminals.
That's been true since long before the Iraq War.
Ryan Thunder wrote:It's this kind of thing that makes me wonder if American hypocrisy is deliberately and meticulously planned from the ground up to be as egregious, extensive, and, just for kicks, as counter-productive as possible.

What the hell could they possibly think they have to gain from this?
Ask yourself who would gain from starting a war on false pretense, and what those people would gain. That should give you the answer to the questions posed here as well.

And no, I don't think it's planned from the "ground up" - it's what happens when you get an elite of some sort jerking the country around for their own benefit instead of everyone's benefit, and they start getting paranoid their scam is going to fall apart.
Drone wrote:How exactly are they war criminals? The Iraqis are their own seperate chain of command, are in their own country and have their own laws.
Oh, please - did you or did you not notice that the US invaded Iraq and took over the country for awhile? The current Iraqi government is there because of US intervention. Even if the Iraqis, all on their own, without any US input started torturing and committing like mayhem the US would still bear some moral stain because if it weren't for the US those people wouldn't be there. More realistically, there are some US citizens participating because Americans are just as likely to be pieces of shit as anyone else. Being American doesn't give someone a Magic Anti-Evil Shield - maybe if more Americans realized that they'd be less inclined to overlook this sort of mayhem.
Frankly unless we're going to fight the entire war over again, that's probably all we're capable of doing.
We shouldn't have fought that war in the first place. I doubt doing it all over again would improve matters.
Of course if US forces had been more heavy handed in stopping this we'dve just been considered big bullies picking on the weak new GOI, and if we didn't hand Iraqi citizens over to Iraqi officials we'd be accused of abducting Iraqi citizens. So apparently we can't win.
No, at this point we can't win in Iraq. There is no way for the US to redeem itself in Iraq. The government falsified reasons to enter the war and thousands of US citizens died for a pack of lies on the part of the George W. Bush administration. Also, tens of thousands of Iraqis died for that lie. These are all reasons that you shouldn't lie to start a fucking war! Even if the US pulled out entirely tomorrow we still would be the bad guys, as it is questionable if the current Iraq could stand on its own. That's right, Drone - the US wrecked an entire nation on false pretenses. That's the biggest reason these days America's reputation is in the shitter in regards to the rest of the world.

Now, doesn't that make you feel warm and fuzzy?
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Re: Frago 242 - order condoning war crimes by Petraeus staf

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Broomstick wrote:I'm just hoping that folks here remember than quite a few of the "US armed forces", while forced to be in that war, are not perpetrators of such crimes. Quite a few of them don't want to be there, either, and are trying to do the right thing in a bad situation. I'd prefer that the guilty parties be found out and punished rather than the whole be flushed down the toilet, the innocent with the guilty, and that the shitstains who engage in this sort of thing are not allowed to hide behind collective guilt.
Let us be clear here - I am talking about the organization itself, not the individual soldiers (unless they had knowledge of this and went along with it nevertheless). If the high command makes such orders, then I bet it is safe to assume that one can lable the organization as criminal even though individual members might not be.
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Re: Frago 242 - order condoning war crimes

Post by Talhe »

We shouldn't have fought that war in the first place. I doubt doing it all over again would improve matters.
Oh, I'm not sure. I'm fairly positive that the Bush administration would've done a much better job at destroying and concealing this kind of evidence.
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Re: Frago 242 - order condoning war crimes

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Broomstick, please read what I'm saying before you jump into something and completely misinterpret pretty much everything. When I said doing it all over again I meant basically tearing the government down a second time after the invasion and attempting yet another rebuild on the fly, not redoing the invasion from the beginning. Arguing whether or not we should've gone in is meaningless to me at this point, because as much as any of us might wish it had never happened, it did, and the consequences of such much be dealt with. So again, what actions were US forces supposed to take in response to the set of circumstances that they faced at that point in time? Not the hypothetical what ifs pf they shouldn't have been there in the first place.

Nor was I discussing morality, merely legality, as the Hague conventions state more than once that an occupying power must respect the laws of the land it occupies. Thanas you bring up the Nuremburg trials, but there's so much that went on there, what exactly supports your arguement? Who there was convicted of war crimes for handing foreign citizens over to his/her own government to be tried or held for crimes they commited? This is a little different than genocide is it not?
The US is not a signatory to the later Geneva conventions, so they don't apply to US troops, and again you're making the claim that US command staff are war criminals, so I'm asking for specific laws of war that they broke, because unfortunately by the time you get to that rank you tend to be very very good at covering your own ass.

As someone who wears the uniform you think it doesn't bother me that this happened and probably still does? Of course it bothers me, but accusations of war crimes are extremely serious, and if true should of course be prosecuted.
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Re: Frago 242 - order condoning war crimes

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When I said doing it all over again I meant basically tearing the government down a second time after the invasion and attempting yet another rebuild on the fly, not redoing the invasion from the beginning. Arguing whether or not we should've gone in is meaningless to me at this point, because as much as any of us might wish it had never happened, it did, and the consequences of such much be dealt with. So again, what actions were US forces supposed to take in response to the set of circumstances that they faced at that point in time? Not the hypothetical what ifs pf they shouldn't have been there in the first place.
How would telling the Iraqi government, which we are ostensibly allied with and created, to not torture people, be picking on them? It's telling a brand new government that was trying to break away from a murderous, genocidal dictatorship, not to break the fucking law and act responsibly! Maybe by stopping this at the root, American could've set a example and not be seen as an incredibly hypocrite! I mean, damn it, in this case there's not even a argument between morality and pragmatism; you don't want a new government to torture people and then plug your fingers in you ear and pretend it never happened!

Ahem.

And as long as you people funding and supporting the war in power, it's completely relavent to bring up the fact that we never should have invaded for whatever legitimate reason the critics present. As long as those... damn it, I can't think of a insulting enough term for them, are in power, they need to be brought down and pushed out of office. As Martin van Crevald said, this is probably the biggest blunder in history; only if the perpetrators are brought to justice can there be actual justice.
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Re: Frago 242 - order condoning war crimes

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Drone wrote:Thanas you bring up the Nuremburg trials, but there's so much that went on there, what exactly supports your arguement?
Command responsibility, for once. The US had command of the occupation effort, thus it had the duty to investigate any wrongdoing that seemed legitimate. I would say reports of US soldiers saying "we found captain X attaching a car battery to the testicles of subject Y" satisfy that. Also, the international convention against torture, which Reagan signed. The USA as occupying force had jurisdiction over Iraq and per the convention, was required to act against anything like that.

BTW, the Nuremberg court had no trouble assigning to German generals the blame for actions of pro-Axis guerillas, even if they were nominally troops of other countries as well.
The US is not a signatory to the later Geneva conventions, so they don't apply to US troops,
Laws do not need to be signed to apply also. Sooner or later, if enough states ratify them, they are considered universal laws (Ius cogens). Specifically, Article II of the International convention against torture became ius cogens (the USA also ratified it), thus torture is universally banned by international law and any state which permits or carries it out automatically violates international law. This universal law was btw codified in US code and is also part of the laws of war. Thus, US officers like the one aide mentioned in the video who knew about this going on broke the laws of war.
and again you're making the claim that US command staff are war criminals, so I'm asking for specific laws of war that they broke, because unfortunately by the time you get to that rank you tend to be very very good at covering your own ass.
See above.

As someone who wears the uniform you think it doesn't bother me that this happened and probably still does? Of course it bothers me, but accusations of war crimes are extremely serious, and if true should of course be prosecuted.
I do think it bothers you and I have not said anything to the contrary. However, given the dismal record of prosecuting war criminals in the USA (Abu Ghuraib, anyone?) I am not holding my breath that anything serious is done.


Let us be honest here. If you read an order that read "Members of the Wehrmacht will pay no mind to Einsatzgruppen", do you think that would absolve them from the blame if they handed slavs or jews over to said groups if they had seen the mass graves? No? Then why do you think the same should not apply to members who willingly handed over people to known torturers and to people who forbade any investigation into such a thing?
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Re: Frago 242 - order condoning war crimes

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Talhe wrote:Depressing. America went in to allegedly stop inhumane treatment, and now it's party to them. The next time I meet a Iraq War supporter I'm throwing this in their face.
I can't believe anybody with a brain could have believed that load of horse shit at the start of the Iraq war.

I'm honestly confused why anybody is surprised. The American military or government is not known for living up the ideals that it constantly lectures everybody else about. They knew full well what their right-wing death squads freedom fighters were doing in South America.
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Re: Frago 242 - order condoning war crimes

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Drone wrote:Broomstick, please read what I'm saying before you jump into something and completely misinterpret pretty much everything. When I said doing it all over again I meant basically tearing the government down a second time after the invasion and attempting yet another rebuild on the fly, not redoing the invasion from the beginning.
No, I don't think tearing down the current government and re-rebuilding it would help.

I don't know - if the UN had a better record I might suggest that they step in and take over. One of the suck things about the situation is that there really isn't a good answer at this point. It will take someone a lot smarter and wiser than me to come up with a good solution, or even the least of possible evils.
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Re: Frago 242 - order condoning war crimes

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Thanas wrote:If you turn people over to forces who are known to kill or torture prisoners, that is a war crime.
If you do not act on trustworthy sources (which seeing it with your own eyes count), you are guilty of a war crime.
If you offcially put in place policies whose aim it is to stop the investigations of war crimes, you are guilty of a war crime.
If you are the occupier and you knowingly allow forces under your command (and the Iraqi security forces were under at least factual command in 2004) to torture, then you can be held responsible.

Nobody had any difficulty holding this against past war criminals like the Nazis. That it is a sucky situation does not in any way invalidate this.
Perhaps more importantly since its more current, for every one of your points people were being convicted at the ICTY (International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia) at the same time as the US was doing this in Iraq. You can find convictions on each of those premises just for, say, Vukovar and the relations between JNA regulars and the Serb paramilitaries there after its fall.

The ICTY is supposed to be the prototype of a war crimes court for the ICC (International Criminal Court), and is an explicit source of procedures, precedents, and interpretations of international law for it, meaning if the US was under it jurisdiction there would be even less ambiguity then usual.
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Re: Frago 242 - order condoning war crimes

Post by K. A. Pital »

Netko wrote:
Thanas wrote:If you turn people over to forces who are known to kill or torture prisoners, that is a war crime.
If you do not act on trustworthy sources (which seeing it with your own eyes count), you are guilty of a war crime.
If you offcially put in place policies whose aim it is to stop the investigations of war crimes, you are guilty of a war crime.
If you are the occupier and you knowingly allow forces under your command (and the Iraqi security forces were under at least factual command in 2004) to torture, then you can be held responsible.

Nobody had any difficulty holding this against past war criminals like the Nazis. That it is a sucky situation does not in any way invalidate this.
Perhaps more importantly since its more current, for every one of your points people were being convicted at the ICTY (International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia) at the same time as the US was doing this in Iraq. You can find convictions on each of those premises just for, say, Vukovar and the relations between JNA regulars and the Serb paramilitaries there after its fall.

The ICTY is supposed to be the prototype of a war crimes court for the ICC (International Criminal Court), and is an explicit source of procedures, precedents, and interpretations of international law for it, meaning if the US was under it jurisdiction there would be even less ambiguity then usual.
The US is not under the jurisdiction of any international courts. In fact, it explicitly puts itself above those courts with its legislation and it has consistently stuck to this position: "We shall not allow U.S. armed forces members to be tried by any international body".

This is hardly news. Once you defy the possibility of an international trial, the only way for it is by force - and no one can force the US. In this case, making orders that condone war crimes is perfectly acceptable because no one, ever, will be able to hold you accountable for it.

The US is so high on its untouchable status that it hardly gives a shit whether something breaks the known conventions on war, international law or whatever. In the past 10 years it only became more and more evident that the US government considers international law a joke, or, worse even, a useful tool to for US interests, which is never to be applied to the hegemon himself.
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Re: Frago 242 - order condoning war crimes

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And? What exactly is the jurisdiction of the United States here? I doubt it would have the legal authority to do anything more than put evidence at the hands of senior Iraqi officials, and even if it did - can you imagine the reaction in Iraq if the US started prosecuting or firing (presumably en masse given the extent of the abuse mentioned in the article) Iraqis on the basis of abuse (which presumably under Iraqi law would not be 'war crimes' at all but come under domestic law)?
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Re: Frago 242 - order condoning war crimes

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thejester wrote:And? What exactly is the jurisdiction of the United States here?
If you occypy someone and hire someone to police that occupied state, you have direct responsibility.
I doubt it would have the legal authority to do anything more than put evidence at the hands of senior Iraqi officials, and even if it did - can you imagine the reaction in Iraq if the US started prosecuting or firing (presumably en masse given the extent of the abuse mentioned in the article) Iraqis on the basis of abuse (which presumably under Iraqi law would not be 'war crimes' at all but come under domestic law)?
That is a different song and dance. It might have beeen a tactical necessity, but tactical situsations do not excuse war deeds. Responsibility still belongs to the USA and if you want to stop another Abu Gharaib, you need to do more than "let us all look collectively the other way". Oh, btw, the USA had the power to do anything as Central Reconstructing Nation and even had the UN backing to fix the place.
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Re: Frago 242 - order condoning war crimes

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Stas Bush wrote:The US is not under the jurisdiction of any international courts. In fact, it explicitly puts itself above those courts with its legislation and it has consistently stuck to this position: "We shall not allow U.S. armed forces members to be tried by any international body".

This is hardly news. Once you defy the possibility of an international trial, the only way for it is by force - and no one can force the US. In this case, making orders that condone war crimes is perfectly acceptable because no one, ever, will be able to hold you accountable for it.

The US is so high on its untouchable status that it hardly gives a shit whether something breaks the known conventions on war, international law or whatever. In the past 10 years it only became more and more evident that the US government considers international law a joke, or, worse even, a useful tool to for US interests, which is never to be applied to the hegemon himself.
Which will make its inevitable backlash all the more severe. Just because no one country can stand against the US now doesn't mean there's no possiblity the US won't suffer any consequences in the future; all the people they've pissed off, all the prisoners who now want revenge, will pounce when the US rots away enough.
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Re: Frago 242 - order condoning war crimes

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Saw in one of the Wikileaks articles that the term, "NFI" was improperly translated to mean, "no further investigation" required. It actually means, "no further information," as any Soldier that operates as an RTO could tell you. We wrote, "NFI" after most reports to mean we knew no further information on the incident in question at that point in time.

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Re: Frago 242 - order condoning war crimes

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Thanas wrote:
thejester wrote:And? What exactly is the jurisdiction of the United States here?
If you occypy someone and hire someone to police that occupied state, you have direct responsibility.
I doubt it would have the legal authority to do anything more than put evidence at the hands of senior Iraqi officials, and even if it did - can you imagine the reaction in Iraq if the US started prosecuting or firing (presumably en masse given the extent of the abuse mentioned in the article) Iraqis on the basis of abuse (which presumably under Iraqi law would not be 'war crimes' at all but come under domestic law)?
That is a different song and dance. It might have beeen a tactical necessity, but tactical situsations do not excuse war deeds. Responsibility still belongs to the USA and if you want to stop another Abu Gharaib, you need to do more than "let us all look collectively the other way". Oh, btw, the USA had the power to do anything as Central Reconstructing Nation and even had the UN backing to fix the place.
Frago 242 was issued in 'June 2004'. Sovereignty was returned to the Iraqis on 28th June, 2004 (with a UN resolution endorsing this handover). Again, I suspect this is an issue of jurisdiction and simply waving your hands at UN resolutions and Nuremberg isn't really a convincing counter-argument; the appeals to the JNA or Axis militia in WW2 would founder, I suspect, on the fact those were irregular units whereas by definition the ISF are not. There's also still the question of how this can be considered a 'war crime' when it's committed by Iraqis on Iraqis within a sovereign Iraq.
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Re: Frago 242 - order condoning war crimes

Post by Gigaliel »

Eulogy wrote:Which will make its inevitable backlash all the more severe. Just because no one country can stand against the US now doesn't mean there's no possiblity the US won't suffer any consequences in the future; all the people they've pissed off, all the prisoners who now want revenge, will pounce when the US rots away enough.
Has that sort of thing actually happened? Ever? I mean, did India or the other colonies every violently lash out a the UK or some other similar scenario?

Beyond reparations in a couple of decades when all those involved are dead, I really don't see anything happening.
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