"It wasn't hip" to protest Clinton's wars

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Post by Darth Wong »

Mr Bean wrote:We know it and we see it and we remeber it, More often than not our Senators do one of two things
1.Say the same old thing day in day out, Class Warefare Reterect, Tax Cuts for the Rich, Yadda Yaddaaa Yaddaa(Standered Democratic method, Talk you into agreeing)
2. Sit there take it (Standered Republican Response)
Both sides snipe at each other, Bean. If you honestly believe that your preferred side is a bunch of lily-white "turn the other cheek" heroes while the other snide is snarling dogs, you're subscribing to exactly the sort of partisan bullshit I'm talking about.

I've seen the way the attack dogs set upon their target. There was not one day throughout the Clinton administration when he wasn't under attack for one thing or another. Was this warranted? Maybe. But when Bush enters the same crucible, all of a sudden I hear this ridiculous fiction that Clinton had a smooth and easy ride through his two terms, so the Republicans can complain about how unfair it is for a sitting president to take such heat!

The amazing thing is that people on both sides seem to think that only the OTHER side does it, and even when concrete evidence is presented, they only repeat themselves.
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Post by Ted »

0.1 wrote:And heck, Bush went through the UN security council, I don't think he was compelled to do so. The question then becomes, why bother. All he got was hammered for trying to do things on the up and up. And when Clinton did Kosovo, and put troops on the ground, he didn't go through the UN. I didn't see the mass hysteria around the world you see today. So, you see, there is some truth to the hypocrisy of the so called anti-war movement.
Bush HAS to go through the UN, because it's the UN Resolutions that are dealing with Iraq.

If the US goes into Iraq without the UN's approval, then the US is doing no better than invading another country, much like Iraq did in Kuwait.

The US can only go in legally with the UN, for its the UN resolutions on disarmament, therefore, its the UN's job.

1441 was not put out by the US government, but by the UN Security Council.
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Post by Anarchist Bunny »

My history teacher accually accepted my deffinition of Appeasment as "What the UN does"
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Post by Darth Wong »

anarchistbunny wrote:My history teacher accually accepted my deffinition of Appeasment as "What the UN does"
Perhaps you should have added the addendum: "and what the US does to ruthless dictators if its corporations stand to profit", just to be accurate.

What France is doing now is unconscionable, and is obviously driven by venal self-interest. But Americans throw stones from a glass house by seizing upon this very real problem, because the American government has done precisely the same thing itself: appeasing the evil because it suited their political or corporate goals.
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Post by Ted »

Darth Wong wrote:
anarchistbunny wrote:My history teacher accually accepted my deffinition of Appeasment as "What the UN does"
Perhaps you should have added the addendum: "and what the US does to ruthless dictators if its corporations stand to profit", just to be accurate.
Yeah, look at Trujillo in the Dominican Republic, 1930-1961.

One US Secretary of State said of Trujillo: "He may be a son of a bitch, but he is our son of a bitch."
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Post by Mr Bean »

Both sides snipe at each other, Bean. If you honestly believe that your preferred side is a bunch of lily-white "turn the other cheek" heroes while the other snide is snarling dogs, you're subscribing to exactly the sort of partisan bullshit I'm talking about.
No no no, I'm calling them Dunderheads who sit there and talk it not Lily-white Turn the other check, I think of them as "Turn around and take it up the..."

To sit there during your typical Senate Speech and listen to the Bullshit opon Bullshit flung out by the Senator who's speaking and no one says anything substantional or points out the pure bullshit the other fellow was spewing
Generaly I've observed just as much Bullshit from the Republican side as the Democrate(After all its not called the "Regilious Right" for nothing") but the diffrence is Democrats tend to always call them on it, Even when its not Bullshit, Like I said its two diffrent apporches, One is to ignore the other fellow, the second is the scream it from the Mountian-tops how wrong he is

I've seen the way the attack dogs set upon their target. There was not one day throughout the Clinton administration when he wasn't under attack for one thing or another. Was this warranted? Maybe
Not since Nixon have we had a President with so many Leagle problems, Manilan(sp?) Temple, The Extra Votes, White-water, Monica, Flowers, The Clinton Librarey

Clinton was always under attack for somthing or other because frankly, He always had somthing new to be attacked for, it was not after Monica when he did not have some new Legel or Ethical Scandel he was trying to Dodge(But he did have one or two after that, just no one knew about them till he was out of Office inculding the fact that Sudan told us the Location of Osama three times and offerd to help Aphrended him twice but we never went after him)
But when Bush enters the same crucible, all of a sudden I hear this ridiculous fiction that Clinton had a smooth and easy ride through his two terms, so the Republicans can complain about how unfair it is for a sitting president to take such heat!
The Problem is Wong, the Reps where on the boat with the Gulf War attack of 98, They fell over themselves to sign that thing and when Clinton never followed through they critisied the hell out of him. Both sides where onboard for the Iraq attack, The rest yes he was critised.

I like to refer to it as the Bullshit Ratio
For every single thing Clinton was Critised about 1 out every three subjects the Critisim is warrented, Bush has an better Raito(One in four to one in Five though to be fair they are quite big(Asscroft and the Patriot Acts)


The amazing thing is that people on both sides seem to think that only the OTHER side does it, and even when concrete evidence is presented, they only repeat themselves.
Pure Ego issue here, When your told over and over agian your holier than thou and have people who attentend to your every need then you tend to have a Ego to match it

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Post by Ted »

Mr Bean wrote:Not since Nixon have we had a President with so many Leagle problems, Manilan(sp?) Temple, The Extra Votes, White-water, Monica, Flowers, The Clinton Librarey
What of Bush and the illegal votes in Florida?

The fact that he was a deserter in the Vietnam war?

Dont say that he's better than Clinton, in terms of legal problems.

Fuck, Clinton is a SAINT compared to Bush.

AKA King George III, Mad King George.
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Post by Mr Bean »

Bush HAS to go through the UN, because it's the UN Resolutions that are dealing with Iraq.
Wrong, The UN should have gone to war by itself thanks to the Resoultions that are Dealing with Iraq. Iraq broke every one of them and all France wants to do is give them more time, We have the Authority to go to War based on the 91 Treaty
If the US goes into Iraq without the UN's approval, then the US is doing no better than invading another country, much like Iraq did in Kuwait.
Big diffrence between a war of Conquest and a war of Regimen change, Iraq invaded Kuwait to anex their land and make it part of Iraq, Quite diffrent from the US's stated goal of destroying all Saddams WMD and leaving

Iraq would have made the Kuwaitys the newest memeber of the Iraq Family
Not so with the US
The US can only go in legally with the UN, for its the UN resolutions on disarmament, therefore, its the UN's job.

1441 was not put out by the US government, but by the UN Security Council.
And Blix has agreed that Iraq(Suprise Suprise) is not living up to the Responbilitys placed on it by 1441 and France is still trying to give them more time and a New Resoultion(Maybe France is going for the Record of most often Ignored country? :lol: Iraq will ignore whatever new Resoultion they make, and everyone else will Ignore whatever new Resoultion they make save Germany and possibly Russia)

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Post by Mr Bean »

What of Bush and the illegal votes in Florida?
The Illegal votes where throw out Ted follow up on the Storys
Second the whole Issue would have never come up if Gore had gone with the LEGAL State Wide Recount(What Bush asked for the Entire time) Instead of the ILLEGAL Three Specific County Recount which just happen to amoung the Most Heavly Democratic... hmm not conicudence there :roll:
The fact that he was a deserter in the Vietnam war?
That would not be a fact, that would be pure bullshit
A nice Record of the Presidents Military Service
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/po ... 072899.htm

So far thats 0 for 2 Ted
Meanwhile The Temple, The Clinton Libaray, The Monica Scandel(While in Office) The Flowers(While Govenerer) White Water

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Post by Hamel »

Meanwhile The Temple, The Clinton Libaray, The Monica Scandel(While in Office) The Flowers(While Govenerer) White Water
What temple? What was the problem with the library?
Monica scandal was much ado about nothing, and Clintons were cleared on Whitewater.
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Post by Mr Bean »

What temple?
The Buddist Monk Temple in which Gore hosted several hundred people eating $5,000 Meals and a great amount of the money instead of going towards Campain money, ended up in the Clinton Bank Accounts
What was the problem with the library?
Any Gifts, Be they Soft or Hard Money the President Must Report if given to him, However he instead did the Legal Dance and it was not until after he was out of Office and agian a Private Citizin when they Discovered Clinton had funneled around Four Millions Dollers throuh the Clinton Library of Gifts and what-not and back into the Clinton Bank Accounts
IE, He never accepted the gifts and instead had them gift to the Foundation of the "Clinton Libarey"(Right next to his house) where he could freely sell any of it tax free or take possesion of it
Monica scandal was much ado about nothing
Husband Cheated on Wife with Ugly Woman, Wife no care, I think thats somthing

and Clintons were cleared on Whitewater
Incorrect, The final ruleing was a lack of sufficent Evidance to prove either guilt or innocence, See all that handy documantion up and disspeared after the Trial started.... and it just keep plum vanishing as the days went by

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Post by Ted »

Mr Bean wrote:That would not be a fact, that would be pure bullshit
A nice Record of the Presidents Military Service
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/po ... 072899.htm
Bush, joined the Texan ANG, but then got a transfer to the Alabama ANG.

Problem is, he never showed up in Alabama.


And the votes?

How come of Bush's 537 more votes than Gore, 544 were ineligable overseas votes?

18 soldiers got to vote twice, with both counted, about half were post dated after Nov. 17, and the rest didn't have proper markings on them.

That gives Bush a NEGATIVE 7 vote lead.
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Post by Mr Bean »

Bush, joined the Texan ANG, but then got a transfer to the Alabama ANG.

Problem is, he never showed up in Alabama.
Problem is the folks invovled have all died and the paperwork can't be found, That does not tip your bullshit dector at all?
How come of Bush's 537 more votes than Gore, 544 were ineligable overseas votes?

18 soldiers got to vote twice, with both counted, about half were post dated after Nov. 17, and the rest didn't have proper markings on them.

That gives Bush a NEGATIVE 7 vote lead.
That was Gore's Own Iddoicy comeing back to bite him in the ass, Remeber who won the Legal Battles Ted, Gore did not Bush, Getting an Ilegle State-wide Recount that came back to bite him in the ass when it turned out he still did not win

Nevermind the fact that none standered for Counting votes was selected Nevermind the fact that the Recount if not statewide was illeagle to begin with, Nevermind the Countys Selected where solidly Democractily Controled

It was illeagle FUBAR from Day one Ted and thats somthing you have to relise

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Post by 0.1 »

Bean,

I do believe you're mistaken about UN calling shots and war. The UN doesn't really want to do this type of thing if possible. It cripples their legitimacy every time they do something like that and can't back it up. The last time the UN called for law and order and seriously attempted to enforce that concept was Samolia. Of course, we know what happened there.

UN should never call for military action because it doesn't have anything to back it up. Left to its own devices, the UN would never come up with 1441. The reason it comes up is because the Americans pressed for it.

As for Wong, I don't know, if I got to be president for eight years without major consequences and got a blow job from the intern and possibly others, (not to mention a talk circuit tour worth millions) I'd be happy. Was the ride tough? May be, but the rewards are so much greater. You might not feel the same way, but that's just a personality thing. I do think you're right as far as the sniping on both sides. But put it in scales of magnitude, and there is obviously a difference.
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Post by Ted »

Mr Bean wrote:
How come of Bush's 537 more votes than Gore, 544 were ineligable overseas votes?
18 soldiers got to vote twice, with both counted, about half were post dated after Nov. 17, and the rest didn't have proper markings on them.
That gives Bush a NEGATIVE 7 vote lead.
That was Gore's Own Iddoicy comeing back to bite him in the ass, Remeber who won the Legal Battles Ted, Gore did not Bush, Getting an Ilegle State-wide Recount that came back to bite him in the ass when it turned out he still did not win.
Hmm, would conflict of interest ring a bell?

Bush's main legal representative was the son of one of the Supreme Court Justices.

Also, two other Supreme Court justices had publicly declared that they did not want to retire in a Dem ruled country, and said that they wouldn't last for 4, maybe even 8 years.
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Post by Mr Bean »

Hmm, would conflict of interest ring a bell?

Bush's main legal representative was the son of one of the Supreme Court Justices.
And he still lost WOOPS! :roll:

Also, two other Supreme Court justices had publicly declared that they did not want to retire in a Dem ruled country, and said that they wouldn't last for 4, maybe even 8 years.
And yet Gore won the case! Woops! Guess they changed their mind, And I'd love to see your sources on this

Track down your sources Ted, I'd love to see some links
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Post by SirNitram »

Ted wrote:
Mr Bean wrote:
How come of Bush's 537 more votes than Gore, 544 were ineligable overseas votes?
18 soldiers got to vote twice, with both counted, about half were post dated after Nov. 17, and the rest didn't have proper markings on them.
That gives Bush a NEGATIVE 7 vote lead.
That was Gore's Own Iddoicy comeing back to bite him in the ass, Remeber who won the Legal Battles Ted, Gore did not Bush, Getting an Ilegle State-wide Recount that came back to bite him in the ass when it turned out he still did not win.
Hmm, would conflict of interest ring a bell?

Bush's main legal representative was the son of one of the Supreme Court Justices.

Also, two other Supreme Court justices had publicly declared that they did not want to retire in a Dem ruled country, and said that they wouldn't last for 4, maybe even 8 years.
This can be tacked onto, of course, though most can be classified 'Funny coincidences'.

It's a funny coincidence that a relative of Bush was the one to report Florida leaning in his favour(Fox news).

It's a funny coincidence Bush's brother had something like ~30,000 Dems taken off the ballot, by extending the 'net' for preventing Felony convicts from voting to Misdermeaner convicts, those with similar names and birthdates, etc.

It's a funny coincidence that all this happened, but you can't blame it on Bush.. Or So I've been told. :)
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Post by Mr Bean »

Its a Funny conncidence that Despite the fact Gore won the Court Battles he lost the Presidancy never the Less, And Despite the fact he ever got to chose the places that would be recounted that where run by and staffed by Democrats he still lost

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Post by Mr Bean »

Last note before I acutal go off for the night

Nitrium I'd love to see your source on this
It's a funny coincidence Bush's brother had something like ~30,000 Dems taken off the ballot, by extending the 'net' for preventing Felony convicts from voting to Misdermeaner convicts, those with similar names and birthdates, etc.
Because the way your phrased it, it passes far beyond the Legal rights of a Governer and acutal extends into US Consitution areas

However if your talking about pre-election voter list clearning then thats just fine, Its been done before, Why? Simple dead people, criminals, and imaginary friends have a habit of voting earily, and voting often and to correc this every few years some states force everyone to re-register or otherwise disallow you from using Absentie Ballots until you verify your identiy with a voting offical(As I said its to preven and decect Dead people and Imaginary friends from voting and its used in every state)

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Post by Uraniun235 »

Amusingly enough, my Economics teacher insists that the two-party system in the US is what's gotten things done, and that nothing would get done were it not for political parties.
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Post by Coyote »

Darth Wong wrote:And how does that change the fact that a typical Republican response to criticism of policy is to attack past Democratic actions, and vice versa for the Democrats? Does the logical fallacy inherent in this practice even occur to you people?
Like with media bias, a lot of this is in reaction to domestic policies that are going on at the same time that the rest of the world is not aware of or sees as unimportant. Every politician here is tying their action into a grand show aimed at reelection.

People in parties that sideline "the Party Line" for the good of the people end up getting cold-shouldered. Republican John McCain got shouldered aside because he sometimes strayed from Republican party doctrine to work with Democrats. There are Democrat politicians who oppose gun control, for example, but because that pov is "not acceptable" to the stated Democratic platform, these people will never rise to a level of national importance, even if they could win elections.

If John McCain had been the Republican nominee, he'd have swept up a lot of Democrat voters and fence-sitters-- but because he wasn't "republican enough" he was replaced with Bush. The Party would rather take a chance on a close race than go with a rebellious sure-fire winner. I'm sure there are similar instances in other nations' politics, though...
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