Would society be better off without a lower class?

ArmorPierce · Post by **ArmorPierce** » 2003-02-22 01:45pm

Yes, it would be best if we wiped out the drug using welfare-fokes who doesn't want to find a job.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-02-22 01:46pm

theski wrote:Sea Skimmer, That sounds alot like communism, Small upper class, no middle, large lower class.

Yeah, exactly. In communist in other states its proved possibul to wipe out the middle class and sometimes shrink the upper class. But no one has ever managed to eliminate the lower class.

Nathan F · Post by **Nathan F** » 2003-02-22 02:16pm

Here is another thing I don't get. How come these poor people on welfare are usually obese? I worked at a grocery store and people would come in and buy stuff on welfare that alot of people who worked and tried to make their own could never afford. They were eating better than many people who weren't on welfare because they kept higher standards of themselves.

But really, I mean, if they are obese, then that means that, unless they have a medical condition, they eat too much. Now, could they not be a bit more frugal and eat LESS, and loose a bit of weight at the same time, and increase their health and well being in the process.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-02-22 02:17pm

Because they eat lots of food that's bad for them and get virtually zero exercise of any kind.

Post by **AdmiralKanos** » 2003-02-22 02:18pm

I think they save money by wearing crappy clothes and not buying unnecessary items like books and deodorant

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-02-22 02:22pm

NF_Utvol wrote:Here is another thing I don't get. How come these poor people on welfare are usually obese?

Because they're lazy shitheads? Generally people with any sort of motivation and self control don't end of on welfare long term and that same sort of people that exercise to keep themselves fit. Where as the people that wind up on welfare are the same sort that don't exercise.

ArmorPierce · Post by **ArmorPierce** » 2003-02-22 02:26pm

Sitting on the couch not doing anything with your life will do that to you.

God Emperor · Post by **God Emperor** » 2003-02-22 02:40pm

Yes, we would be better off.

A friend of mine came up with an idea to take care of the homless:
Military Services.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-02-22 02:41pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Mike, I think they should be made to be as embarassed as possible. If you make them too comfortable, they might never get off of Welfare.

That's very easy to say when you don't know someone who's on unemployment and actively trying to find a job in this unbelievably shitty economy.

My father lost his job at the end of last year because the new CEO thought he wasn't selling enough, even though he sold more than anyone else, and the company was run by a bunch of fucking idiots. The program they were selling was being developed overseas in Kuwait, and the Kuwaities kept the programmer on this side of the ocean one version behind on the source code because "Americans are inferior" and "we don't believe in tech support." How are you going to sell a product when you can't even guarantee adequate support?

He's actively trying to find a new job, but it's fucking hard right now. Sorry, but it is. Sure, he could go to work for some startup, but he's almost 52. He needs job security and some place where he can build up a nice pension before retirement.

So, why should my father be made to be as humiliated as possible just because he was made to be the "example" when the new CEO came strolling in? Because some people on unemployment stay there? That doesn't sound like a good enough reason, to me.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-02-22 02:42pm

God Emperor wrote:Yes, we would be better off.

A friend of mine came up with an idea to take care of the homless:
Military Services.

Ooooh, very bad idea. It would just become Welfare Part II.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-02-22 02:44pm

Durandal wrote:
Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Mike, I think they should be made to be as embarassed as possible. If you make them too comfortable, they might never get off of Welfare.
That's very easy to say when you don't know someone who's on unemployment and actively trying to find a job in this unbelievably shitty economy.

My father lost his job at the end of last year because the new CEO thought he wasn't selling enough, even though he sold more than anyone else, and the company was run by a bunch of fucking idiots. The program they were selling was being developed overseas in Kuwait, and the Kuwaities kept the programmer on this side of the ocean one version behind on the source code because "Americans are inferior" and "we don't believe in tech support." How are you going to sell a product when you can't even guarantee adequate support?

He's actively trying to find a new job, but it's fucking hard right now. Sorry, but it is. Sure, he could go to work for some startup, but he's almost 52. He needs job security and some place where he can build up a nice pension before retirement.

So, why should my father be made to be as humiliated as possible just because he was made to be the "example" when the new CEO came strolling in? Because some people on unemployment stay there? That doesn't sound like a good enough reason, to me.

Unemployment is at around 5.7-6 percent right now, hardly as severe as some of the Europeans countries are getting hit. Your father may be having trouble finding a job, but due to his considerable skills it's likely due to structural and frictional unemployment.

Trytostaydead · Post by **Trytostaydead** » 2003-02-23 01:35am

First of all. Not everyone is there by choice.

Secondly, the world needs a surplus working pool to fill certain jobs.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2003-02-23 01:50am

Stormbringer wrote:
NF_Utvol wrote:Here is another thing I don't get. How come these poor people on welfare are usually obese?
Because they're lazy shitheads? Generally people with any sort of motivation and self control don't end of on welfare long term and that same sort of people that exercise to keep themselves fit. Where as the people that wind up on welfare are the same sort that don't exercise.

Or it can be lack of education and a proper, regular diet. I have been on welfare, so I would appreciate it of you dont genralise about stuff you know nothing of.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2003-02-23 01:53am

Trytostaydead wrote:First of all. Not everyone is there by choice.

Secondly, the world needs a surplus working pool to fill certain jobs.

Ever been on the dole? I assure you its no fun. Its far better to have people off the dole and in gainfull employment than sucking up government money.

Post by **AdmiralKanos** » 2003-02-23 01:56am

Some people on the dole want to get off. Some people don't. I've seen both kinds. That's why I support the concept of welfare, but at the same time, I think we have to be careful to balance the benefits so that it doesn't become so comfortable that people can stay on it indefinitely.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2003-02-23 02:01am

AdmiralKanos wrote:Some people on the dole want to get off. Some people don't. I've seen both kinds. That's why I support the concept of welfare, but at the same time, I think we have to be careful to balance the benefits so that it doesn't become so comfortable that people can stay on it indefinitely.

I agree, and I know from experience its no great life, more of an existance. What gets on my goat is some people who would be shot of it, have never had to wonder where the next meal comes from, or if they will be able to pay the next power bill. Or worse try to justify their position with theory ,without practical experince of living like that.

Sienthal · Post by **Sienthal** » 2003-02-24 12:40am

theski wrote:Sea Skimmer, That sounds alot like communism, Small upper class, no middle, large lower class.

That's not the pure idea of Communism you speak of, but then, it would be nearly impossible to achieve the "pure" Communism.

The problem I see is that if we were to eliminate the current lower class, our standard of social class would be raised dramatically. Middle class people would take the place as the bottom rung on the ladder.

Yogi · Post by **Yogi** » 2003-02-24 03:04am

You'll always have some unemployment in a well run economy, otherwise it's time to start buying gold since inflation is going to shoot through the roof. That being said, everybody has a diffrent level of "employability" depending on factors like skill, talent, prior expiriences, disability, age, and apperance. They might be able to control some, but not all of these factors. This will pretty much create a class of people at the ass-end of the scale who won't be able to get a job no matter how hard they try. Imagine some smelly homless person in torn clothes walking into a job interview and asking for work.

Interprete that however you will.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2003-02-24 05:04am

Yogi wrote:You'll always have some unemployment in a well run economy, otherwise it's time to start buying gold since inflation is going to shoot through the roof. That being said, everybody has a diffrent level of "employability" depending on factors like skill, talent, prior expiriences, disability, age, and apperance. They might be able to control some, but not all of these factors. This will pretty much create a class of people at the ass-end of the scale who won't be able to get a job no matter how hard they try. Imagine some smelly homless person in torn clothes walking into a job interview and asking for work.

Interprete that however you will.

Well its true enough.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2003-02-24 05:59am

Or it can be lack of education and a proper, regular diet. I have been on welfare, so I would appreciate it of you dont genralise about stuff you know nothing of.

Some of us Do, You can get a High School Education and a Proper Regular diet for free providing you go to school, I was born on well-fare and was off and on it till just before I went to enter High School.

As long as your parents can get you to school on time and unless they are feeding you Candy and Cakes for dinner you should be have both a decent Education and a Proper Diet simply re-liying on the school system.

And if your willing to work your ass off you can even get into College free but hey not everyone is willing to work

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2003-02-24 06:21am

Mr Bean wrote:
Or it can be lack of education and a proper, regular diet. I have been on welfare, so I would appreciate it of you dont genralise about stuff you know nothing of.
Some of us Do, You can get a High School Education and a Proper Regular diet for free providing you go to school, I was born on well-fare and was off and on it till just before I went to enter High School.

As long as your parents can get you to school on time and unless they are feeding you Candy and Cakes for dinner you should be have both a decent Education and a Proper Diet simply re-liying on the school system.

And if your willing to work your ass off you can even get into College free but hey not everyone is willing to work

However, it does not always work like that. When you get parents who know next to nothing themselfs and are on welfare, and give the kids a couple of bucks to buy their lunch, yeah it can happen, and does happen, I used to see it happen at school. Its a vicious cycle unfortunatly and people do fall through the cracks.
NZ uni is 75% government funded, that helps as well if you can get in

Thing is that kids can emulate the life they see around them, but some do pull themselfs out of the mire and make something of it.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-24 09:25am

There is little the government can do to make up for the effects of shitty parenting.

Sienthal · Post by **Sienthal** » 2003-02-24 11:18pm

Hear Hear!

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2003-02-25 01:47am

Darth Wong wrote:There is little the government can do to make up for the effects of shitty parenting.

True.

Cal Wright · Post by **Cal Wright** » 2003-02-25 02:11am

Clone Sergeant wrote:Do you mean getting rid of them(concentration camps) or finding ways for them to improve their status so they are no longer "lower class"?

Sure why not. Hook 'em up to an electric plant and make em run like hamsters. Tha bastards!

The first option is absurd.

Hold on to your ears folks, it's showtime!

All people who are "non working, government milking, drug using individuals" aren't that way by choice.

The phrase shall rear it's ugly, yet creative head again in as many days.
You know the drill people. Patience is a virtue.

BULL-FUCKING-SHIT. So you mean someone has a gun to thier head telling them to stay at home with norp and a six pack while the govt pays them with my hard earned tax dollars?!? Are you saying that these people are pinned to laboratory tables and injected with heroine, lsd, and whatnot shit funded by gov't shares?!? Where the hell did you get that one man, from your ass?

Just because your poor doesn't mean your unfit.

No, your unfit because your poor. Granted, not all poor people are unfit. However those that are unfit are usually druggies lying in the gutter milking the gov't for moonshine. The only upside to that is my cousin will always have a job. Be it hush hush on old country roads.

That's basically social darwinist bullshit.

No, that's reality. Say it with me now...

Besides even if you did get rid of them, the concept of lower class would merely shift upwards. Where would it end?

It wouldn't. But then again, if we're only getting rid of the drug abusing, welfare riding individuals that will not make an effort ot better themselves, than we would still have a lower class, it would just shuffle around. However, without that previous dead weight things would be better off.

The only real option for attempting to eliminate a lower class is to try and find a way for them to improve their economic standing and help them kick their drug habit. How that will be done I don't know but it's the only humane way of eliminating those kinds of people.

We have a way for helping people kick thier drug habit. It's called rehab. However, we in Alabama have figured that one doesn't work already. We moved onto something more effective. It's the chain gang. Would you like me to introduce you to it?