Whatever happenned to British patriotism?

[Thanas]

Please don't forget the rich "Crown Jewel" of the british colonies, India, which the UK only took supreme control of during the 19th century. Wouldn't say that that colony fared in any way poorly.

You should read up on the famines.

[Phantasee]

The idea that India didn't fair poorly is absurd. Did you forget about partition? 12.5 million people displaced, with a million or more dead. That was a direct consequence of the British administration, not a side effect like I've heard some people claim.

Edit: and as Thanas noted, the famines left many more dead.

[Channel72]

It takes a fair bit of cognitive dissonance to feel patriotic in this country anyway. What exactly have we done since 1945?

You made the World Wide Web.

Also, the Beatles.

[bobalot]

Please don't forget the rich "Crown Jewel" of the british colonies, India, which the UK only took supreme control of during the 19th century. Wouldn't say that that colony fared in any way poorly.

You should read up on the famines.

Didn't the British also stop any sort of Industrial development in India, so that its own manufacturers would always have a huge market to export to with basically no competition?

[Darth Nostril]

Don't forget the salt tax.

There's a lot done in the heyday of the Empire that we are ashamed of, many of us are proud of our heritage but the St Georges cross has a lot of blood on it.

[Falarica]

Also, the Beatles.

And
Led Zeppelin
Black Sabbath
Judas Priest
Motörhead
...

[Zaune]

Astonishingly, I now feel marginally better about my emigration plans falling through. (Long story.)

Thanks guys.

[Big Orange]

BO's ignorance has been split to a more deserving forum.

I shouldn't been posting at 01:00AM at the end of a long day while a cold virus sets in.

Anyway here's Simon Schama's take on the Bengal Famine partially instigated and worsed by the British occupation. The British subverted the Mughal Empire's administrative infrastructure with their early free market BS, with truly disastrous results and millions dying avoidable deaths through callous greed and incompetence. However in Spain's colonies the silver mines established during the 1540s in the regions of Potosi and Zacatecas sound pretty horrendous as well, with mercury used by the forced workers in the extraction of silver ores at an altitude of 6000 meters. Indigenous people were forced to work the mines through the loophole of the mita system, but soon enough were heavily supplemented by African slaves and poorer European settlers; the miners died at the rate of 40 a day, pressed into "service" to work six day shifts for about four months.

The Africans in the 19th and 20th centuries suffered varying degrees of badness under the British, French, Dutch, Portuguese, and Belgiums, but I don't think the Namibia are missing the German colonists either...

[Thanas]

However in Spain's colonies the silver mines established during the 1540s in the regions of Potosi and Zacatecas sound pretty horrendous as well, with mercury used by the forced workers in the extraction of silver ores at an altitude of 6000 meters. Indigenous people were forced to work the mines through the loophole of the mita system, but soon enough were heavily supplemented by African slaves and poorer European settlers; the miners died at the rate of 40 a day, pressed into "service" to work six day shifts for about four months.

This does not even measure up to the scale of British colonialism.

The Africans in the 19th and 20th centuries suffered varying degrees of badness under the British, French, Dutch, Portuguese, and Belgiums, but I don't think the Namibia are missing the German colonists either...

No, but what does this have to do with the topic? If you try to say the German empire was as bad, you are misinformed. Just look at the numbers - miniscule compared to the deaths in one famine and even more miniscule compared to the British conduct as a whole. This of course neglects the investments taking place - and all in all, the Germans were quite easily among the most benign of the colonial empires.

[Coyote]

I think what's described here is something that happens in a lot of other counties, too. I America, if you have a flag or some other "patriotic" symbol, people assume you're one of the hard-core Republican types that's into American exceptionalism and goes to Tea Party rallies, etc.

I had a 9-11 commemoration bracelet that I used to wear, something that simply memorialized the victims and nothing more. I got it on my way to Iraq. Everyone who saw it automatically assumed I was some super right-winger. I got dismissive looks from folks I knew who were politically on the Left, and folks who were on the Right tried to chat me up like a long-lost cousin or something, assuming I went along with their wild notions about "them liberals" and how the Iraq war was a great way to prevent more attacks on American soil ( ). I finally just took the damn thing off because I got tired of it all.

It's disappointing, but once-innocent displays of patriotism have now been co-opted by the right-wing types who are actually Nationalist rather than merely Patriotic. Patriotism, IMO, can be a healthy appreciation for positive accomplishments of one's country while not blinding oneself to the faults (and seeking to correct them, ideally). Nationalism is an unhealthy display of chauvinism, and unfortunately it looks a lot alike.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Coyote, you have expressed exactly what I was hoping to say, in an elegant manner I could not achieve

[Zaune]

Patriotism, IMO, can be a healthy appreciation for positive accomplishments of one's country while not blinding oneself to the faults (and seeking to correct them, ideally). Nationalism is an unhealthy display of chauvinism, and unfortunately it looks a lot alike.

The former has a habit of being at the top of a slippery slope to the latter.

[Rye]

Nationalism is tribalism, and patriotism is usually tied in with nationalism and jingoistic, far-right bullshit.

There's also apathy because the national psyche as a complaining, hypocritical mass, has been thoroughly entrenched in by tabloid media. Just look at the Mail and Sun. We're a middle of the road country full of people that live to work and live day to day getting enraged by shitty publications that have been crafted towards creating more mild, apathetic discontent. At the same time, we are spoiled by having a middle of the road politics system that's good enough to discourage active mass-movements against it, but also shit and corrupt enough to not do any more than needs to be done (according to the media's improvised target list) at a push.

[Coyote]

Nationalism is tribalism, and patriotism is usually tied in with nationalism and jingoistic, far-right bullshit.

Is there no place for healthy pride in one's nation for positive achievements? I think the US Apollo Program and Moon landing was way cool, as well as other scientific achievements. And despite the rah-rah hijacking of the defeat of fascism in WW2 by the nationalist right, I do think it is nice to reflect that --at the time-- we stood against them. (Admittedly now we'd probably make a damn deal with them or something). We were willing to fight and die to end slavery. We have gone a long way to seek racial justice-- a nationalist would stop there and say "we've achieved perfection"; but a patriot, I think, would say "we've come a long way but there's still more to do-- and I think we can do it".

There are no good moments or ethical stances taken by the nation/country at all?

[Bakustra]

Nationalism is tribalism, and patriotism is usually tied in with nationalism and jingoistic, far-right bullshit.

Is there no place for healthy pride in one's nation for positive achievements? I think the US Apollo Program and Moon landing was way cool, as well as other scientific achievements. And despite the rah-rah hijacking of the defeat of fascism in WW2 by the nationalist right, I do think it is nice to reflect that --at the time-- we stood against them. (Admittedly now we'd probably make a damn deal with them or something). We were willing to fight and die to end slavery. We have gone a long way to seek racial justice-- a nationalist would stop there and say "we've achieved perfection"; but a patriot, I think, would say "we've come a long way but there's still more to do-- and I think we can do it".

There are no good moments or ethical stances taken by the nation/country at all?

That's not what he said. What he said is that patriotism is tied into nationalism, and nationalism is a negative, as it renders the nationalist either incapable of criticizing the actions of her country, or, more usually, denying that any negative aspects of her country either took place or were originated by "true" members of her country. So patriotism is not an unmitigated good, or rather must be carefully examined. For that matter, all of your examples could be argued against. (Admittedly, Apollo would have the weakest argument against it).

[Coyote]

That's not what he said. What he said is that patriotism is tied into nationalism, and nationalism is a negative, as it renders the nationalist either incapable of criticizing the actions of her country, or, more usually, denying that any negative aspects of her country either took place or were originated by "true" members of her country. So patriotism is not an unmitigated good, or rather must be carefully examined. For that matter, all of your examples could be argued against. (Admittedly, Apollo would have the weakest argument against it).

Yeah, I see what you mean, I just see nationalism and patriotism as separate, but --on the surface-- easily confused. Whereas (correct me if I'm wrong, Rye) it seems that he's saying patriotism is a "gateway drug" to nationalism and on down.

[Stark]

Indeed, the idea that you have to be 'patriotic' or 'nationalist' to have pride in your country or its achievements represents an amazing success of propaganda, since the whole concept has been co-opted by nationalists of various stripes. People had pride in their nation or tribe or city for thousands of years before nationalism even existed.

Coyote's amazingly naive rendition of American history is, frankly, terrifying.

[Thanas]

C'mon Stark, it is not as if he said the bad things did not exist, he just listed the good things. I am sure he is well aware that without Pearl Harbor, the US would not have gone to war, that slavery was only tackled once the north could live without nor did he decide to ignore the Manifest Destiny stuff. I am sure he knows all these.

[TC27]

Ummmm, not a lot. No major scientific things spring to mind, nor any major global politcal things. I think the only significant thing we did on our own was the Falklands war, and that was done on a wing and a prayer it seems

You have strange criteria for things to feel patriotic about really......also ignorant of many scientific and cultral contributions since WW2.

As I said before we there is plenty for an average Brit to feel patriotic about especially if they stopped reading the tabliod press and appreciated how lucky they are to live here...

[Eternal_Freedom]

So, in summation, the idea of "patriotism" seems to have drifted way because it's been associated with negative things like nationalism and being blind to your countries faults. Is that right?

On a side note, I am most grateful to the people who have contributed to the discussion. It has been most enlightening

[Coyote]

Is this a fucking vendetta, Stark? Or just you being a douche?

This is a thread about patriotism, so of course I'm going to look at the positive outcomes. Neither I nor anyone else here has time to go into a pages-long explanation about the complexities of Roosevelt's gradual increase of American involvement into the war; how we politicized the slavery issue, etc etc etc.

[Hillary]

I think I'd go as far as to say that I'm proud of my country partly BECAUSE of its lack of flag-waving, anthem-singing displays of patriotism (let's ignore the royal wedding for a moment ).

The reason for this has been more than adequately explained by others.

[Eternal_Freedom]

So...you're proud of Britain because we can be patriotic without being all in your face about it?

Interestng idea, I hadn't thought of that. This thread is certainly educating

[Lord Woodlouse]

Personally, I think the British can take some pride in their imperial history. Unlike other empires, the British has a lasting legacy in creating new and successful states as a solution to the problem posed by the American War for Independence. Namely, Canada, South Africa, Australia, and New Zealand come to mind. This sort of open minded solution to governing such a vast empire strikes me as particularly enlightened in the history of the human race.

Not really, seeing as these were pure products of necessity. Meanwhile, their history in asia and africa is pretty much horrible.

How's that different for anyone else? Empires certainly can and have opted to act contrary to necessity in the past.

There's certainly good and bad in the history of all empires, and Britain had the biggest of the lot (sure, the Spanish had a larger one geographically, but population wise there's not really any comparison) so it's bound to have more bad points. But it's also done a lot of good, the aggressiveness that Britain and the Royal Navy pursued the abolition of slavery, for instance.

In terms of the topic in general, yeah, I'm pretty proud of being British. I can't really help it. I acknowledge that's it's tribal and it's irrational (I'm proud of something that has not really anything directly to do with anything I do). I want Britain to do well, and part of that can be explained in terms of wanting the area around be to be successful so my life is easier (self serving but logical), but I'm sure when I eventually live in America (my wife is American, and I'm sure we will someday) I'll still want Britain to do well above all others. I realise it's a very primitive mindset, but... meh... that's just how I feel.

[Lonestar]

C'mon Stark, it is not as if he said the bad things did not exist, he just listed the good things. I am sure he is well aware that without Pearl Harbor, the US would not have gone to war, that slavery was only tackled once the north could live without nor did he decide to ignore the Manifest Destiny stuff. I am sure he knows all these.

Have you heard of a ship called the good Reuben James
Manned by hard fighting men both of honor and fame?
She flew the Stars and Stripes of the land of the free
But tonight she's in her grave at the bottom of the sea