You're Captain Yelland of the USS Nimitz and...

[MKSheppard]

Roosevelt is not going to unilaterally declare war. No way.

Thanas-kun, please read my statement a bit closer -- I did say that if Hitler was stupid enough to declare war on the US as a qualifier to set that probable sequence of events up.

[Lonestar]

Roosevelt is not going to unilaterally declare war. No way.

I'm having a hard time seeing how the Nimitz could remain secret for long. We might as well go for a Hail Mary and use it to augment ASW efforts in the North Atlantic.

[Edi]

Most of the bullshit from this thread has been oppressed.

Galvatron, do you think you could possibly post something more than just one-liner questions? Because if not for Shep, this thread is essentially Testing level material.

[Chaotic Neutral]

Would it be possible to sit out WWII without being detected, then use in 1947 or 48, nuke Russia's cities? That would be an awesome alternate reality, especially if Russia's leadership could be killed..

[Gandalf]

Would it be possible to sit out WWII without being detected, then use in 1947 or 48, nuke Russia's cities? That would be an awesome alternate reality, especially if Russia's leadership could be killed..

Why would the US do such a barbaric thing?

[Sea Skimmer]

Hiding won’t work; the utter insanity of that plan aside. Besides the problem of meeting food requirements the men are just going to mutiny if you keep them on the ship that long. Waiting that long would also risk degradation of the ships jet fuel stocks, JP-5 can be stored a while but the official shelf life is only five years and its best used in IIRC 18 months. Lots of basic maintenance problems are also bound to appear too, like running out of light blubs.

[Stark]

In Zipang (the Japanese anime about a similar situation) the crew consider sitting the war out and helpign rebuild Japan after the war, but their personal investment and feelings make this difficult. 1980s American sailors would be even more strongly related to WW2 evens and people.

[Sea Skimmer]

I really can’t see how anyone could rationally conclude to stay out of the war except a Japanese crew who might just fall for the delusion that Japan was ‘forced’ into the war. I’d expect a 1980s German ship to probably be willing to fire on the Nazis or at least hand over its secrets to the allies. Now dropping a few nukes isn’t pretty, but in 1941 you still have the ability to save 50 million lives by ending the war QUICK. A Nimitz ought to have quite a few nukes too, probably at least two per A-6 and one per S-3 so it’d be reasonable to waste a couple of them in demonstrations, first on open water and then on more isolated industrial areas, before you resort to destroying cities.

[Stark]

Or Japanese that are torn between their lives in a modern, prosperous and peaceful Japan and the deaths of piles of civilians in the only hostile use of nuclear weapons ever, I guess.

But I imagine that heaps of 1980 naval guys will have fathers fighting in WW2, and they're going to have problems staying out if it means unnecessary casualties or whatever. It seems far more likely they'll do something stupid than they'll do nothing at all.

[weemadando]

Now that I think about it, there's a book version of the premise in The Final Countdown, called Weapons of Choice. It's was totally abysmal, incidentally.

You sir, can go fuck yourself. That series is great. My opinion counts for more. Thus I am correct.

[atg]

Now that I think about it, there's a book version of the premise in The Final Countdown, called Weapons of Choice. It's was totally abysmal, incidentally.

You sir, can go fuck yourself. That series is great. My opinion counts for more. Thus I am correct.

Forgetting all its other failings, a series where between the second and third books the plot has skipped over 2-3 years, during which one of the main characters has died (mentioned only as a throwaway by the girl he was dating), is crap.

[Stofsk]

Yeah sorry Ando, but by book 2 I was quickly losing interest. It's a nice little premise though.

[Vehrec]

The question is not whether the Japanese will be going to war with the united states, but whether Hitler will be stupid and paranoid enough to declare war on the US in turn as he does historically. If Hitler declares war, then the Nimitz has to deal with Europe first, as per standard doctrine at the time. If Hitler is cowed by time traveling super-carriers, then it can stay in the pacific long enough to shatter the Kido Butai and break the invasion of the Philippines.

[RedImperator]

At what point do the Japanese give up in this scenario? They don't need to know Nimitz is a nuclear-powered supercarrier from the future to realize they just lost six carriers, their air wings, pilots, support fleet, and commanding admiral to a US ambush. If the invasion of the Philippines is smashed, too, how much of the Japanese fleet is even left to continue the war?

[Simon_Jester]

The question is not whether the Japanese will be going to war with the united states, but whether Hitler will be stupid and paranoid enough to declare war on the US in turn as he does historically. If Hitler declares war, then the Nimitz has to deal with Europe first, as per standard doctrine at the time. If Hitler is cowed by time traveling super-carriers, then it can stay in the pacific long enough to shatter the Kido Butai and break the invasion of the Philippines.

The US didn't automatically move every ship to fight the Germans while letting the Japanese go entirely unopposed; the "Europe First" doctrine didn't mean that.

Nimitz might well be attached to the US Pacific Fleet for long enough to break up the Japanese offensive in the South Pacific (this should probably not take more than a few weeks) before proceeding onward to deal with the Germans.

[weemadando]

We're talking about a Carrier Battle Group that is armed with Harpoons by this time. A single squadron of Intruders launching these is capable of wiping out a Japanese fleet. They can operate from the standoff range of the weapon, avoiding contact with any fighter patrols/interceptors and just keep on launching a few at a time to ensure that they end up hitting everything.

Should war start, you could even just steam over to the Home Islands and immediately start launching precision raids (LGBs would be in arsenal) against the military hierarchy.

[Swindle1984]

Just as an incidental bit of trivia, my dad was aboard the Nimitz when they were filming The Final Countdown.

[Batman]

What is the munitions loadout for a Nimitz of that era? As long as stores last they'll go through enemy forces like they aren't there but how long are those stores going to last?

[Sea Skimmer]

At what point do the Japanese give up in this scenario? They don't need to know Nimitz is a nuclear-powered supercarrier from the future to realize they just lost six carriers, their air wings, pilots, support fleet, and commanding admiral to a US ambush. If the invasion of the Philippines is smashed, too, how much of the Japanese fleet is even left to continue the war?

The invasion of the Philippines didn't actually use that many major warships, the main landing on Luzon was only supported by three heavy cruisers for example while the landing on Mindanao was supported by a CVL and a light cruiser. What would really hurt Japan is sinking a vast number of the invasion transports with the troops still onboard. You can completely ruin Japans conquest plans by wiping out a couple divisions at sea; they had almost no reserve for the entire ‘strike south’ plan. However a Nimitz is still somewhat remotely vulnerable to mass air attack and to random chance encounters with a submarine so steaming all the way to the Philippines does have some risk. Japan kept it six old slower battleships in the Home Islands the whole time they were invading the South Pacific, they didn't do anything until the Midway Operation. the bulk of its destroyer-cruiser-battlecruiser forces were tied up in the invasion of Malay and the Netherlands East Indies, and against Gaum and the follow up operations in the South West Pacific.

Sailing to Japan and sinking those six battleships it would a very powerful follow up to sinking the carrier fleet. it would leave Japan without a capital ship navy, only two Kongos would survive. I hadn't even thought of this before but this double blow within less then a week might be enough on its own to convince Japan to halt all operations. Maybe anyway. Certainly it'd make the first nuke WAY more effective. I figure about 5 days to steam from a position off Hawaii to striking range of most of the Home Islands.




Nimitz hauls about 2,400 tons of weapons at normal full load and 2,900 tons at combat load plus 2 million gallons of jet fuel and 2.7 million gallons respectively. I don’t know of any detailed magazine stuff for a Nimitz but Friedman's US Aircraft Carriers gives the following for USS Enterprise in Feb 1968.

250lb Low Drag Bomb (LD) x 2,352
500lb LD x 5,133
750lb LD x 544
1000lb LD x 442
2000lb LD x 38
Napalm canister x 150
Walleye guided bomb x 51
Sparrow x 250
Sidewinder x 150
Bullpup x 40
Shrike x 30
Standard ARM x 44

The Enterprise design weapon load was 1,800 tons but 2,500 tons appears to have been possible. So a Nimitz on routine operations in 1980 may have somewhat more weapons. The numbers also reflects a carrier loaded out for the specific mission of bombing North Vietnam in 1968. By the 1980s 250lb bombs, 750lb bombs, Napalm and Bullpup and Walleye would be rare, while a few new weapons like Maverick and GBU-15 and a higher proportion of heavier low drag bombs would be in service. Also the ship would have more air to air missiles in proportion to other weapons, including AIM-54. Friedman's shows other smaller carriers with a max of much as 600 Sparrow and 900 Sidewinders for example. It seems like somewhere from 500-1000 air to air missiles could be expected out of a Nimitz on a Cold War mission when Soviet bombers rather then a few random MiGs are the threat.

For whatever reason the Enterprise table also shows no cluster bombs at all; I think because he simply didn't have that data and not because they didn't exist in the carrier bomb load. Figure on at least 800 cluster bombs based on other ships.

The main limitation is often not so much weight in reality but the bulk, smart weapons tend to be bulky as do air to air missiles compared with simply stacking up low drag bombs or cluster bombs.

[adam_grif]

If Japan ceases offensive operations and signs a peace treaty early on, what do you think are the chances that they will keep some of their territories (i.e. Korea)? Would the United States be happy with them pulling out of China and ceasing hostilities, or would they demand an unconditional surrender and chop the empire up?

[Sea Skimmer]

We’d demand they get out of Indochina; we might drop the demand they withdrawal from central and southern China in the interest of quick peace but I really doubt it. The US had accepted Japanese occupation of Manchuria and Korea for some time and that would most likely be allowed to continue.

[adam_grif]

Hmm. If Japan retains sovereignty and Korea / Manchuria, they may be an interesting player in an alternate history cold war. They've just been to war with America, but they're not exactly the biggest fans of Russia either. I assume that pursuing a nuclear arsenal would be one of their immediate postwar goals once they know they exist.

Of course, if the Nimtz can rush to the European theater and still have supplies left to drop a few bombs, they can probably take care of Germany long before Russia gets its act together, preventing the Russian occupation of Germany entirely. The world would look like a very different place.

[Chaotic Neutral]

Why have people assumed that the Nimitz will submit to WWII American control? As far as I know, the U.S. Military does not have plans for time travel.

Would it be possible for the Nimitz to do something like found its own country by blackmailing the world with nukes and destruction of ships?

[Gandalf]

Out of curiosity, how much autonomy did the Nimitz have in using nuclear weapons?

I know that they need "authorisation" to use them, but is that just asking permission or do they need some sort of code transmission?

[adam_grif]

If I had to guess I would assume that you need two senior officers on board, who would each have an individual code. This way the carrier could still use its nuclear arsenal in the event of the US political body getting its head chopped off (i.e. airforce one shot down in flight, the capitol building nuked or something). It would also mean that the Nimtz wouldn't be crippled by having their communications damaged or jammed or something.

... but that's just a guess.

Why have people assumed that the Nimitz will submit to WWII American control? As far as I know, the U.S. Military does not have plans for time travel.

Would it be possible for the Nimitz to do something like found its own country by blackmailing the world with nukes and destruction of ships?

Why, is SDN in charge of it or something