A 40K chaos infested hive on modern earth

[wautd]

Based on this ancient tread, the city is Zoica (or Ferrozoica in full, whichever you prefer).

By act of a funky warp storm, the hive city of Zoica just after completing full mobilization to destroy Vervunhive suddenly finds itself on another planet thousands of years in the past. The planet is Terra anno 2010 and the hive finds itself in the middle of Siberia. The Chaos warlord (Heritor Asphodel) shrugs and decides to obliterate this planets population istead.

Zoica's army consists of (estimates)
- Eighty or ninety thousand armoured vehicles
- thousands of gun batteries
- an infantry force of +- 5 million (typical infantry is armored and armed with a lasgun + several grenades).
- a handfull of specialized tanks/death machines
- access to nukes although probably limited (they only use one in the book).
- 1 mobile command fortress (500 metres high, armed and armored to the teeth).
- no aircraft (it might be possible they can manufacture them though if they're given the time. They managed to designed supertanks from scratch so it doesn't seem completely impossible.
- and offcourse the hive itself, allowing the Zoicans to resupply. The hive itself is protected by a shield so no nukey nukey.

Modern earth quickly recognizes this treath and unifies to destroy this madness.
Can Zoica be stopped or will earth be "liberated" by Chaos? Or will it turn it into a stalemate in which the Zoican forces will be contained in their hive? Additionally, will the charisma of Heritor Asphodel be a serious treat in this scenario?

[adam_grif]

Nuke nuke nuke nuke nuke, but if 40k has wanky structural materials the command fortress can probably survive them.

[Serafina]

Nuke nuke nuke nuke nuke, but if 40k has wanky structural materials the command fortress can probably survive them.

Void shields (or other shields). The city certainly has them, and the mobile fortress likely has them as well.
There is (at least) one planet who has mobile hive cities, and their void shields are powerfull enough that they can withstand the bombardment of Battlecruisers. Also, we know that a hive was blown up by a nuke in the novel this is based on, and it was explicitly stated that they must have slipped that nuke under the hives shields somehow.

Furthermore, it's possible that the hive and mobile fortress have the capability to intercept and destroy ICBMs. 40K has the technology to do so.
Frankly, denying them aircraft is quite stupid. The main reason we never saw them in the novel was that the fight was carried out against a city under a shield, which aircraft likely could not penetrate them, so deploying them would be a waste of resources. And once the shield fell, the hive was as good as finished anyway.
This likely applies here as well, but they assaulted the hive with that 5-million-man army AND a great number of superheavy machines AND that 500m command fortress. It's unlikely that earth can do a similar assault, if only for the lack of comparable superheavy weapons.

[adam_grif]

OK so they crush Earth in a matter of weeks and take over without much resistance. Glad we had this scenario guys.

[Serafina]

OK so they crush Earth in a matter of weeks and take over without much resistance. Glad we had this scenario guys.

Don't be obtuse. Just because you can't nuke the hive and command station, chaos doesn't automatically win.
In this szenario, they start out in siberia - so while they can hurt russia, there is plenty of time to set up defenses for Europe, China and the like. And they will have a hard time hurting the USA, given that their starting forces are not amphibious.

Essentially, you have replaced current-day Russia with a crazy, technological superior version of the USSR - albeit without a comparable arsenal in nukes if the russians are not completely stupid.

[adam_grif]

5 million soldiers with 40k technology, an impenetrable fortress, some sort of megacity. And the most powerful weapons we can field can be intercepted by them because according to you they 'have the technology'. Well great! They'll curb stomp every army on Earth because 40k vehicles are nigh indestructible with our conventional weapons, and their infantry rifles are good for anti-tank work on our vehicles. Presumably as soon as they can set up their Lasguns on a frame that can track and fire on aircraft, we won't even have that minor advantage anymore.

They have at least some nukes but our nukes can't touch them. So they can hold the world ransom even if we can somehow miraculously cripple their ability to launch offensives against the world. This scenario isn't very interesting because as far as I can tell we have absolutely nothing on them except numbers, but the tech disparity is so great that they are worthless.

[HMS Sophia]

Where is the reference for being able to shoot down ICBM's?
The guard quite happily use Deathstrike missiles on the battlefield without them being useless, so why would a (slightly smaller) ICBM be unusable all of a sudden?

IMO it would be an insanely hard fight for Earth's forces, mainly due too the massively superior tech of the enemy armed forces. But the ability to cripple them with nuclear weapons is hard to contest (unless the above reference comes too light).
Also, where would they be getting resources? We know they can grow their own food, but what about fuel, materials, etc?
Not that they could produce anything new anyway, since every man woman and child was forced to fight...

[wautd]

They'll curb stomp every army on Earth because 40k vehicles are nigh indestructible with our conventional weapons, and their infantry rifles are good for anti-tank work on our vehicles.

Surely their army can be decimated by tactical nukes once they leave the hive no?

[dragon]

Well the small void shield on Titans and such do have one weakness. They are highly resistnant against strong attacks but mutiple smaller scale attacks can bring them down.

Void Shields do not protect from close combat assaulters or other vehicles moving through them.

link

If nothing else heavy attacks against anything coming out while we dig under it.

Now if nukes and other wmd are not used, well thats a whole different ball game.

[Fluffy]

Also to consider; how fast can the Chaos-tainted masters of Zoica infect the rest of the world with their corruption? Imagine the horror of Warp-tainted Fox News...

[madd0ct0r]

given it's on siberian perafrost, could a few thermo-warheads just melt the ground under them, sinking the hive into the mud?

or did the funky warpstorm bury it slightly for foundations?

[Lancer]

given it's on siberian perafrost, could a few thermo-warheads just melt the ground under them, sinking the hive into the mud?

or did the funky warpstorm bury it slightly for foundations?

You'd still need to slip them past the void shields, and that's assuming that the sheer pressure and heat generated by the hive didn't already thaw the soil out and partially bury the underhive.

[Purple]

No need to slip them under anything. Just bury the nukes at a distance making a circle of them like a mine field around the hive city. Than blow them up if anything moves over them.

Rinse, reload, repeat.

[Connor MacLeod]

First off, you're going to have to give them at least SOME low yield nukes. single digit KT or so should more than do it. Otherwise they have to rely on extreme thermobaric or MOAB bombardment to take out some of the bigger vehicles (not just the command center either. They had some other titan-scale constructs too, but a regiment's worth of tank fire could at least harm them somehow.) Even if the titan-like stuff (except maybe the command center) doesn't have kt level firepower (that could be the case) it will pack close to it.

Second. Why the fuck is it anytime a "real life vs fiction" universe comes up we have some wankers arguing that the modern forces are going to suddenly nukespam everything? I mean I could see Shep arguing that but that's shep. RL humans have to LIVE on this fucking planet after all and nukes, even low yield ones, still have nasty short and long term consequences both with the radioactive and fallout stuff as well as the effects of injecting kilotons/megatons of energy into an enviroment (an envirment we ALREADY fuck with with our industrialization, I might add.) More to the point,. I imagine there are some who are NOT going to be happy with unilaterally nuking a foreign country (more than likely without their permission.) Enough with the nuke masturbation.

Third: Let's not over-rate the Zoican troops there. YEs, they have a hive. Yes, they have 40K tech. But they're fucking CHAOS CULTISTS. They're not sane. They're not well trained, and they aren't likely to be well organized or supplied (relative to modern troops). As I recall from Necropolis pretty much the entire population of Zoica was mobilized into the war, so there's a distinct possibility that the Zoicans have at best a limited (or no) logistics/supply line to speak of. Even if their industry is still intact and maintained, they need resources with which to build things, and that means they'll have to find that somewhere.

The big problem, however, is a complete lack of ability to transport large numbers of troops and equipment across oceans, and the complete absence of anything resembling air power or air transport. This puts them at an incredible disadvantage, since air power and sea power are quite dominant in modern militaries.

Zoican artillery could match or outrange modern forces in some ways (whether by guns or missiles or whatever.. we aren't quite sure what the 70+ km bombardment weapons were or their exact accuracy) but again air power and sea power makes this irrelevant. Sea and air power can also offer huge equalizers against even the titan scale stuff if they pelt it with fire for long enough.

So basically Zoica has little or no mobility beyond whatever it can reach by land to start. They're vastly outnumbered, they have a logistical disadvantage. They'll have to acquire what they need from those they capture, which means they constantly face a race between capturing and converting stuff to their use and running out of troops and material to fight with. And evne then, transport of troops and mateiral between continents is going to slow things down immeasuraby, which also puts them at a disadvantage to air and sea power.

Zoican vehicles and such may be tough and/or powerful, but there are limits due to recoil on just how powerful tank guns can be, so they can't be VASTLY more powerful without funky and probably physics defying magic in this case (despite my earlier assessments on the Conqueror tank gun in Honour Guard. I'll remind folk I've long since abandoned that number.) Single-hit kills are still possible for 40K tanks on each other, so it should be possible for modern forces to hurt them, even if it DOES take repeated hits (numbers and time can allow this.) And even if their tanks can't take them somehow, there's sitll the air and naval support. At best, we see the Zoican forces maybe torching a single continent, at best, but even that relies on a slow response time/and or some luck on the Zoican side, high tech or no high tech.

Lastly: Chaos. I doubt Chaos will have much indirect influence over modern humans, since for all intents and purposes we will have virtually no connection ot the Warp (much like how the tau are.) Direct corruption is still possible by various mans (contact with infected/tainted objects or peopl), but that's about it. This means no "Asphodel playing his magic hyponsis songs and turning the world against itself." easy wins - it will have limited to no impact, in all probability.

[Serafina]

Also, i would like to point out another two issues that severely limit the Zoican forces: Strategic mobility and Reserves.

Their strategic mobility is inherently limited. They start out in a low-infrastructure area and while they can certainly gain respectable overland speeds, they have no way of crossing oceans at the start of this szenario. Just to get to Europe at their top speed, they would need about half a year (depending on where in Siberia they start). Also, their logistics train is going to be one giant mess - while they could supply their army in the book, that was over open terrain, not across mountain ranges, swamps etc.

Their reserves are even more limited. Yes, they have 5 million soldiers - but those represent virtually all of the combat-capable population of the hive, including children etc. They start out very large, but they can not replace any losses from their original population. While they might convert Terrans if they can capture larger population centers, their ability to do so is not a given. Likewise, while terran factories could be eventually converted to produce some of their equipment (a lot of 40K-tech is certainly easy to produce), their more exotic and larger technology will be extremely difficult to replace.


Given these factors and their isolated position, they are likely to be outnumbered. They can not pull off a quick, overwhelming attack, since that's now what their army is made for and they are not in the right location to do so. Since Earth has both a far larger population base and a larger industrial base, they can overcome any superiority in technology (mostly limited to vehicles) by sheer numbers and durability.


Edit: Damn, that's what i get for getting distracted while writing a post. Posted anyway, but Connor already said what i said here.

[Connor MacLeod]

Zoica was 1/3 the size of Vervunhive (40 million) so between 13-14 million Zoicans tops. Gaunt figured that Asphodel had mobilized virtually all of them for the war effort. At least a third or half seemed to be troops, which means that the rest could at best be handling logistics and/or production (unless Zoica has a significant servitor base, which is completely unknown.) Taking slaves from civilian populaces rather than killing them might offset this, but they'd have to guard them which will limit or dilute their overall fighting strenght unless they can somehow "corrupt" troops into their ranks (hard as I said, but not impossible.)

However, even if they maintain their industry, their logistics is not an issue, and they have tougher/more powerful (but not neccesarily more sophisticated in EVERY regard, note) tanks, they are still outnumbered, out-industried, and they lack air and sea power. And they will be hard pressed to move beyond any land-based area in any event. With the sea and air power advantage they can overcome whatever advantages Zoica has no matter how long it takes, and that is even without including the possibility of nuke-wank.

[Serafina]

I still see no reason why they could not start to build airpower of their own. I listed several good reasons why they were not employed during the campaign in the book - mostly because it was a siege operation and the payload of the aircraft would not be usefull in attacking the shield, while they would not be needed after the shield was breached due to that already winning the fight.

I can hardly imagine that the hive would be incapable of building aircraft, given their excellent industry. While skill in building tanks does not tranlate into skill in building aircaft, i do not see why they should be utterly incapable of doing so.


Now, 40K-aircraft operate quite differently from modern-day aircraft. They often do not use missile weaponry at all (tough long-range AA-missles do exist) and rather rely on direct-fire weaponry. They are also equipped with much heavier armor, often sufficient to stand up to direct hits from some anti-tank weapons. They often have sub-orbital or space capability and high supersonic, maintainable speeds, as well as good maneuverability.

I think the armor would be the decisive factor here - AFAIK, modern AA-weapons carry small warheads and rely on fragmentation in order to damage modern, unarmored aircraft. Those are unlikely to be effective against 40K-aircraft, so they might operate with great impunity.

[Connor MacLeod]

I still see no reason why they could not start to build airpower of their own. I listed several good reasons why they were not employed during the campaign in the book - mostly because it was a siege operation and the payload of the aircraft would not be usefull in attacking the shield, while they would not be needed after the shield was breached due to that already winning the fight.

We saw no indication of air power at all and it WOULD have been of use (striking at other Hives before prepared, for example, or striking at potential reinforcements like the ones from NorthCol, or the Guard reinforcements.) I see no reason to assume they had it from the get go. And even if they DO have air power, what evidence is there going to be that it will be dramatically better than modern stuff? Zoica's own hardware was definitely inferior ot Imperial stuff. And even if its BETTER, its still going to be outnumbered. And Zoica will still lack sea power.

And building an airforce? Good luck. They'll need facilities to service and house the craft (and airfields), designs to run off of. They'll need pilots. And they need to be able to prevent the Earth airpower from attacking them while they do all this. AGain, it seems difficult to impossible.

I can hardly imagine that the hive would be incapable of building aircraft, given their excellent industry. While skill in building tanks does not tranlate into skill in building aircaft, i do not see why they should be utterly incapable of doing so.

Having the ability to do so does not mean that they will. The Zoicans were fucking chaos nutcases by that point, why should you assume Asphodel gives a shit about airpower? He liked big, penis compensation type ground vehicles.

Now, 40K-aircraft operate quite differently from modern-day aircraft. They often do not use missile weaponry at all (tough long-range AA-missles do exist) and rather rely on direct-fire weaponry. They are also equipped with much heavier armor, often sufficient to stand up to direct hits from some anti-tank weapons.

40K aircraft can and do use air to air missiles, but only if supplies are avialable (And whoever is running the logistics/Munitorum lets them be used.) Air to air missiles (for example) were used in Rynn's World by PDF fighters.

And their durability, while impressive, is not neccesarily THAT impressive (lascannons as I recall still punch holes in them pretty effectively.) Are you thinking of "atmosphere only" fighters or the hybrids? There are diffrences you know.

They often have sub-orbital or space capability and high supersonic, maintainable speeds, as well as good maneuverability.

In some fashion. For most "atmosphere only" this is a separate booster rocket, and it is only for transit between ground and space in some limited fashion.

They have some advantages in manuverability (vectored thrust and the ability to mimic VTOL capabilities) but that is not neccesarily a decisive advantage. The speed one is debatable, depending on whose numbers you believe. It's been hinted they might be faster than IA listed speeds, but there are no clear cut examples save for Thunderhawks (which can reach hypersonic or near-hypersonic speeds.)

I think the armor would be the decisive factor here - AFAIK, modern AA-weapons carry small warheads and rely on fragmentation in order to damage modern, unarmored aircraft.

40K fighters aren't THAT heavily armored, and warhead size depends on the size of the missile. Furthermore, even if they ARE armored unlike modern fighters (someone with a military bent like Sea Skimmer will have to comment here, I can't claim knowlege of that) that doesn't mean the entire damnt hing is. The rudders and flaps cannot be completely armored without compromising their function (either too heavy, or too rigid) so they are vulnerable. The Jet engines too can only be armored so much without comrpomising function (intake or exhaust), and the same applies with the cockpit. And even if they ARE tougher that just means needing more hits to bring them down. Again, numbers will help here, as will stuff like coordination and AWACS/communications.

Also, durability depends a great deal on who is building the fighters and the materials used. And I do not believe you can consider Zoican stuff "Imperial standard." in the least.

Those are unlikely to be effective against 40K-aircraft, so they might operate with great impunity.

Okay, if you realyl believe this strongly, care to give some specific examples? Because I'm not thinking of any where an numerically inferior opponent is going to be THAT tough, not without them using space fighters or hybrid space/atmospheric fighters of Navy quality.

[Serafina]

And building an airforce? Good luck. They'll need facilities to service and house the craft (and airfields), designs to run off of. They'll need pilots. And they need to be able to prevent the Earth airpower from attacking them while they do all this. AGain, it seems difficult to impossible.

They can do the building in their Hive, which should be pretty much immune to airstrikes. If they have the ability to build aircraft (granthed, that's unknown), then they can do so.

Having the ability to do so does not mean that they will. The Zoicans were fucking chaos nutcases by that point, why should you assume Asphodel gives a shit about airpower? He liked big, penis compensation type ground vehicles.

Their soldiers might be mad, but why should Asphodel be unable to recognize the advantage of airpower? He was supposedly a great strategist, after all.

And their durability, while impressive, is not neccesarily THAT impressive (lascannons as I recall still punch holes in them pretty effectively.) Are you thinking of "atmosphere only" fighters or the hybrids? There are diffrences you know.

Yes, i know. But even atmospheric craft seem to be very durable, especially by modern standards and can stand up to some hits by 40K autocannons. The point is that this makes the effectiveness of most modern AA-weapons quite questionable.

40K fighters aren't THAT heavily armored, and warhead size depends on the size of the missile. Furthermore, even if they ARE armored unlike modern fighters (someone with a military bent like Sea Skimmer will have to comment here, I can't claim knowlege of that) that doesn't mean the entire damnt hing is. The rudders and flaps cannot be completely armored without compromising their function (either too heavy, or too rigid) so they are vulnerable. The Jet engines too can only be armored so much without comrpomising function (intake or exhaust), and the same applies with the cockpit. And even if they ARE tougher that just means needing more hits to bring them down. Again, numbers will help here, as will stuff like coordination and AWACS/communications.

The main difference is that you would have to get a direct hit on a vulnerable location, or get very lucky with your shrapnel. Even then, the aircraft might still be operational instead of going down.
Basically, it would be great if one of our mil-experts could comment on that. Basically, 40K-aircraft should be at least as armored as, say, A-10 Thunderbolt II while having higher speeds etc. similar to actual fighter craft.

[Connor MacLeod]

They can do the building in their Hive, which should be pretty much immune to airstrikes. If they have the ability to build aircraft (granthed, that's unknown), then they can do so.

If they build them in the hive, then they'll be confined to the Hive until they can be launched. Which means dropping the shield somehow to let them out. Which means exposing them to counter-attack.. etc. This is hardly an invulnerable strategy,

Besides, where are they getting the materials to build this stuff? Just how many fighters do you think they can build? how are they going to train the pilots? What about jet fuel? Missiles? You're making far too many assumptions here based on information simply ew don't have, and the best you can argue is that they'll have shitty fighters that will only be a threat up close (unless they have magical autotargeting lascannon.)

Their soldiers might be mad, but why should Asphodel be unable to recognize the advantage of airpower? He was supposedly a great strategist, after all.

Wait, are you seriously Arguing Asphodel is a sane and rational man? Based on what evidence? And who said he was a great strategist (I though he was notable for building fucked up weird ass machines that pissed the AdMech off.) even though strategy does not translate into tactics (which we can judge by his assault on Verghast anyhow).

Yes, i know. But even atmospheric craft seem to be very durable, especially by modern standards and can stand up to some hits by 40K autocannons. The point is that this makes the effectiveness of most modern AA-weapons quite questionable.

the qualifer being "seem to" The problem with that is is that "durability" in this case could be because iether they are armored to resist the hits, or that the shots hit unimportant areas (and do no critical damage), or simply because they punch straight through without hitting anything vital. Without concrete examples there are lots of ways to handle the durability issue that does not automatically confer immunity to RL weapons. This is one reason I have not given much detail to air to air power beyond starfighters.

Also, saying "they can take hits from 40K autocannons" still doesn't tell us much either since autocannons can vary widley in performance and have multiple damage mechanisms (kinetic and explosive.) And this isn't even factoring in the usual "quality variance" built into 40K stuff to begin with (differing qualities of tanks, troop transports, weapons, etc.)

Which actually brings up another point. Why are you assuming this is "Imperial military" standard? Zoica would at best be a PDF force, which automatically means the stuff will be at least somewhat inferior to what the Guard (and Navy) will have. Grizmund's force raping the Zoican tanks at will only proves this.

The main difference is that you would have to get a direct hit on a vulnerable location, or get very lucky with your shrapnel. Even then, the aircraft might still be operational instead of going down.

Based on what? I'm arguing that we dont have enough information, you're the one arguing that we know enough without specificing the required numbers or knowledge. The only possible source coming to mind ATM is Double Eagle and I'm hard pressed to remember anything with detail from that (not that its my burden to prove anyhow.)

Basically, it would be great if one of our mil-experts could comment on that. Basically, 40K-aircraft should be at least as armored as, say, A-10 Thunderbolt II while having higher speeds etc. similar to actual fighter craft.

Wait, how did we get from 40K aircraft being "nearly immune" to modern weapons to "as tough as an A-10?" exactly? That's a rather dramatic leap to make, especially without evidence.

[Gunhead]

About airpower, 40K attack planes have a lopsided tendency to use direct fire and unguided weapons for both air combat and ground attack, and as far as I know they're not really stealthy at all relying on armor instead. Correct me if I'm wrong here.
This would mean they're almost always operating within reach of both SAM, AAA and jet based missile weapons, with limited capability to counter the range these systems provide. I don't know any air based 40K weapon that could standoff against modern anti-aircraft missiles, specially from attacks coming behind the horizon.
It's even possible our modern stealth based planes would be virtually invisible to their planes, which would make the air battles extremely lopsided. Even if they can detect any aircraft we have, we would still maintain total numerical superiority, in all categories. We have more planes, pilots, munitions and capability to produce more.

This would mean we can maintain constant air superiority over any ground battle and rain bombs on them at every opportunity. This combined with modern ground rocket artillery weapons that can reach easily 70+ km would make waging any ground campaign hell for them. Their problems would be worsened that their land based army is mostly leg infantry with portions of it motorized and just some of it mechanized. Their main hard hitting tanks are slower than ours, meaning we could easily dictate how and where the fighting occurs, meaning we can attack their supply, which is already limited and wear them out before committing any land based units to battle.

Oh, and their main opponent would be fucking Russia, who doesn't flinch at the face of military casualties. They also pack more of everything our cultists brought with them.

-Gunhead

[HMS Sophia]

A few minor things in terms of aircraft:
In terms of missiles, the main US air to air missile, the AIM-120, will attempt to get direct hits, rather than a proximity detonation (Although it can still function in that way). This means its less of a shrapnel burst and more of a contact explosion, which would be of more use against armoured targets, no?
I'm not sure about the AIM-54 Phoenix, but I dont even know if that is used anymore

Also, no, Modern aircraft pretty much aren't armoured (AFIK), but some are very ruggedly built, and built to take huge punishment and keep flying. Two perfect examples are the F-15, and the A-10. The A-10 for example was built to fly on one engine, one rudder, and half a wing missing. So if we could assume equality with an A-10 (which was done earlier), then we know they can be shot down.
And yes, the control surfaces will be more delicate, but still, aircraft are capable of flying while missing quite a lot, if they're designed that way (see above).

In terms of Zoica, I don't actually see them using aircraft. Just in terms of building them supplying them, etc. I did post earlier, questioning how Zoica would be supplied (how rich is Siberia in natural resources?)

[Gunhead]

You don't need a hard kill to say a plane was eliminated. Sufficient damage to avionics, engines, hull or other sub systems will force the plane to limp back home. If this is achieved before the plane can perform its mission, your anti-aircraft assets did their job.

Speaking of which, I noticed IG doesn't seem to have laser based anti-air weapon placements or vehicles. I only found auto-cannon / missile based placements and vehicles. They do place lasers on fighters. I found this odd and puts serious limitations on AA capabilities of our cultists. As I understand AA-missile weaponry is prioritized to guard units leaving PDF with extremely limited ground based anti-air coverage.

-Gunhead

[DudeGuyMan]

Second. Why the fuck is it anytime a "real life vs fiction" universe comes up we have some wankers arguing that the modern forces are going to suddenly nukespam everything?

Because eleventy-zillion screaming bloodthirsty Klingon Stormtroopers or whatever the fuck suddenly flying out of a time portal by Act of Internet and declaring war on the universe is likely to draw a much harsher reaction than the usual machinations of the careful game of statecraft.

[HMS Sophia]

Speaking of which, I noticed IG doesn't seem to have laser based anti-air weapon placements or vehicles

There are Sabre platforms, which can mount anything from heavy stubbers (50.cal's) to lascannons in twin mounts. But they are manually aimed and fired, unlike the hydra, which is the AA vehicle. The Manticore can also mount anti-air missiles, but those are rare.
SO there are plenty of AA platforms, but they're as good WW2 era platforms, other than the hydra.