Obama to no longer pressure Israel on settlements

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Kane Starkiller
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Re: Obama to no longer pressure Israel on settlements

Post by Kane Starkiller »

MKSheppard wrote:Wave I (1994-1997) 294 Israelis killed, 1,492 wounded. There were 15 distinct suicide attacks with 165 fatalities attributable to them during this period.

By the way, these early suicide attacks did actually impact the 1996 elections, the first in which Israelis elected their PM directly. Two attacks occured early in May, killing 32. The election took place two weeks later.

Fun factoid: Peres held a comfortable lead in the polls before those two attacks. So you can say that the Palestinians elected Bibi.

Wave II (2001-2005) 1,032 Israelis killed, 6,161 wounded. There were 135 distinct suicide attacks with 524 fatalities during this period.
I certainly don't question Israel's right to defend itself from terrorism but what does that have to do with constructing civilian settlements all over West Bank?
Ari'el, the settlement you mentioned, was established in 1978 and is 16km deep inside West Bank.
It is abundantly clear that Israels strategic, long term goal is to colonize the West Bank and suppress/evict/outbreed the Palestinians to ultimately annex it.
That has nothing to do with day to day tactical problems of terrorist attacks.
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Re: Obama to no longer pressure Israel on settlements

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Kane Starkiller wrote:
MKSheppard wrote:Wave I (1994-1997) 294 Israelis killed, 1,492 wounded. There were 15 distinct suicide attacks with 165 fatalities attributable to them during this period.

By the way, these early suicide attacks did actually impact the 1996 elections, the first in which Israelis elected their PM directly. Two attacks occured early in May, killing 32. The election took place two weeks later.

Fun factoid: Peres held a comfortable lead in the polls before those two attacks. So you can say that the Palestinians elected Bibi.

Wave II (2001-2005) 1,032 Israelis killed, 6,161 wounded. There were 135 distinct suicide attacks with 524 fatalities during this period.
I certainly don't question Israel's right to defend itself from terrorism but what does that have to do with constructing civilian settlements all over West Bank?
Ari'el, the settlement you mentioned, was established in 1978 and is 16km deep inside West Bank.
It is abundantly clear that Israels strategic, long term goal is to colonize the West Bank and suppress/evict/outbreed the Palestinians to ultimately annex it.
That has nothing to do with day to day tactical problems of terrorist attacks.
It's called a "worthless red herring". It's often brought up in arguments about settlements. For some reason people think it's a compelling argument.
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Re: Obama to no longer pressure Israel on settlements

Post by MKSheppard »

Kane Starkiller wrote:Ari'el, the settlement you mentioned, was established in 1978 and is 16km deep inside West Bank.
There were from what I understand it, two main drivers behind settlements by the Israelis after 1967:

1.) Re-establishing Destroyed Jewish villages.

Gush Etzion is a group of settlements with a population of 55,000. It's built on three prior Jewish villages:

1927-1929: Driven out by 1929 Palestine Rioting
1932-1937: Driven out by 1936-39 Arab Revolt
1943-1948: Destroyed in 1948.

In '48 everyone was going around massacring villages in response to perceived atrocities by the other side -- the Arab Legion destroyed Gush Eitzon while shouting "Deir Yassin"; and later the Israelis then destroyed Al-Dawayima as it was thought the people involved in Eitzon hailed from it.

But anyway, we're getting a little side tracked. Before Eitzon was destroyed; a convoy managed to escape from it; and it contained the village's children and quite a bit of it's women. When Israel ended up in control of the land in 1967; several children who had been in the convoy had set up a group and petitioned to allow the reestablishment of Eitzon, which occured in September 1967.

2.) Establishing Strategic Control of Certain Key Locations.

One of the major objectives for the initial settlements was to secure Israeli security via controlling key strategic points. This accounts for a lot of the settlements from 1967-1980s.

(Remember that Israel did not get some form of peace treaty with her neighbors until 1979; and even then, it was not sure wether it would last as long as it did.)

It makes a lot of THIS MAP CIRCA MAY 2002 make sense.

Black and Dark Blue are Definite Israeli Control. Light Blue is where the Israelis have jurisdiction; but that can be negotiated away.

Deep Red and Orange are 100% Palestinian Control; Yellow are areas where the PA has jurisdiction, but the Israelis provide security.

You can see how there's a line of settlements on the road north of Jericho (Route 90).

It makes no sense, until you look at Google Earth and see that Route 90 wends on a line that overlooks the Jordan River Valley, specifically the Jordanian side.

It also explains why there's virtually no settlements near the Dead Sea; since you don't have to worry about Jordanian PT-76 Amphibious tanks swimming it.

It further explains the logic over PA Control/Jurisdiction regarding roads, especially the seemingly bizarre arrangement near Nablus.

It also does help explain the logic of this May 2008 Partition Proposal by the Israelis

And this map is pretty interesting as well:

LINK

You can see how the Israeli aim is to:
  • Secure the Region around Jerusalem
  • Secure the Jordan Valley
  • Secure the East/West Routes to the Jordan Valley
It seems to me that an important step towards achieving a IvP agreement would be for the United States to fund and build a series of barriers along the Jordan river and in the Jordan Valley -- something of sufficiently gargantugan proportions that it would impede the movement of an army.

This would undercut the Israeli Arguments for specialized roads and enable the formation of much more contiguous PA-controlled blocks; since Israel wouldn't need to maintain the capability to deploy the IDF to the Jordan Valley rapidly -- they could just send the IAF to cluster bomb a hypothetical A-rab army as it slinks through the small openings in the American-built defensive fortifications.

The Israelis have shown that they are willing to uproot fairly long-standing settlements -- but in many places there are just too many people to evict.

So any logical peace plan is going to result in the borders of the West Bank shifting east on average about 15-20 kilometers, with major changes in the Ar'el region and Jerusalem region.

The problem is that the PA's current crop of negotiators; who are very much in the vein of TOTAL RESISTANCE are opposed to any form of 'land-swapping'.
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Re: Obama to no longer pressure Israel on settlements

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You forgot a third reason, and the most stupidly important one: Religious Considerations. The religious want to settle in the West Bank and formerly Gaza because of their religion despite strategic/resource considerations (look at Gaza). They're the most resistent, and they unfortunately have a stake in Israeli society, and are most likely to resist being moved.

So essentially, they can go fuck themselves in my mind. They don't care about anything besides their own selfish interpretation of their religion, and don't care about the consequences.

For strategic reasons, as a counterpoint to needing the West Bank, Crevald (a famous military historian) proposes a counterpoint: http://forward.com/articles/133961/ Granted, I think he's off about a few things, but he makes sense for the most part.
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Re: Obama to no longer pressure Israel on settlements

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Talhe wrote:You forgot a third reason, and the most stupidly important one: Religious Considerations. The religious want to settle in the West Bank and formerly Gaza because of their religion despite strategic/resource considerations (look at Gaza). They're the most resistent, and they unfortunately have a stake in Israeli society, and are most likely to resist being moved.
I've read about the Hilltop settlers, who basically go and find some random hilltop and then settle there illegally without permits; and then dare the IDF to uproot them, which it is resistant to doing so because like you said, political considerations and PR disaster in Israel itself of dynamiting synagogues during eviction.
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Re: Obama to no longer pressure Israel on settlements

Post by Darth Yan »

what about the fact that the settlements hoard 80% of the water and take up 40% of the land despite being home to 1% of the population?
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Re: Obama to no longer pressure Israel on settlements

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Darth Yan wrote:what about the fact that the settlements hoard 80% of the water and take up 40% of the land despite being home to 1% of the population?
I'd say that water politics and control is a depressingly common problem in the Middle-East, that Israel does indeed use Palestinian water unjustly, and that 1% of the population is wrong.

The current agreement between Israel and the Palestinians is due to Oslo I and Oslo II, and is almost certainly in need of revision and/or updates for both moral and political purposes.
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Re: Obama to no longer pressure Israel on settlements

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MKSheppard wrote:There were from what I understand it, two main drivers behind settlements by the Israelis after 1967:

1.) Re-establishing Destroyed Jewish villages.

--snip--
Whatever injustices occurred before 1948 were more than made up during the 1948 war when Israel occupied a much greater portion of land than was planned in UN partition plan. Furthermore Israel signed the armistice agreement so at that point any further expansion had no legal or moral, if you will, connection to whatever happened to Jewish villages before 1948.
MKSheppard wrote:2.) Establishing Strategic Control of Certain Key Locations.

One of the major objectives for the initial settlements was to secure Israeli security via controlling key strategic points. This accounts for a lot of the settlements from 1967-1980s.
Gaining control of certain locations is accomplished by military bases and outpost, how does having civilian population deep within West Bank help control the location in any tactical sense? From a military standpoint it makes the job more difficult since they have to guard both the location and protect civilian population against Palestinian attacks. Unless of course we are talking about long term rooting of the Jewish population and colonizing the territory.
MKSheppard wrote:It also does help explain the logic of this May 2008 Partition Proposal by the Israelis
And this map is pretty interesting as well:

LINK

You can see how the Israeli aim is to:

* Secure the Region around Jerusalem
* Secure the Jordan Valley
* Secure the East/West Routes to the Jordan Valley


It seems to me that an important step towards achieving a IvP agreement would be for the United States to fund and build a series of barriers along the Jordan river and in the Jordan Valley -- something of sufficiently gargantugan proportions that it would impede the movement of an army.

This would undercut the Israeli Arguments for specialized roads and enable the formation of much more contiguous PA-controlled blocks; since Israel wouldn't need to maintain the capability to deploy the IDF to the Jordan Valley rapidly -- they could just send the IAF to cluster bomb a hypothetical A-rab army as it slinks through the small openings in the American-built defensive fortifications.

The Israelis have shown that they are willing to uproot fairly long-standing settlements -- but in many places there are just too many people to evict.

So any logical peace plan is going to result in the borders of the West Bank shifting east on average about 15-20 kilometers, with major changes in the Ar'el region and Jerusalem region.

The problem is that the PA's current crop of negotiators; who are very much in the vein of TOTAL RESISTANCE are opposed to any form of 'land-swapping'.
So Israel plans to take about 30% of West Bank area, completely encircle West Bank so it can only trade through Israel, and split the remainder of the West Bank into about 8 parts by building Israeli controlled roads. The end result is not a sovereign Palestinian country no matter what the hypothetical agreement would call it.
Which is pretty much what I said: suppress and evict Palestinians from the West Bank and/or slowly squeeze them into Gaza strip like ghettos.
It is also not "land swapping" since Israel would not actually swap its own land but simply change the parts of West Bank under occupation. I don't see why any Palestinian negotiator no matter how rational would accept this. It is nothing less than total capitulation.

As an example look at the settlements around Hebron:
Image
Israel is to the east and the settlement is to the west of Hebron. What possible purpose could this large civilian settlement have other than to constrict any expansion of Hebron and make it all but impossible that any kind of contiguous sovereign country can emerge in West Bank?
And Israel refused to stop the additional construction of such settlements all over West Bank. This is not about security from terrorist attacks. It is not about securing strategic location which are already secured. It is about colonization pure and simple.
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Re: Obama to no longer pressure Israel on settlements

Post by Talhe »

A more palatable offer by the Israelis would theoretically resemble the Olmert Plan, or the earlier ones proposed by the peace negotiations:

http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/images/ ... ertmap.pdf

Although I believe Israel still takes too much territory (and water resources would still need to be properly divided, and the refugee issue, ect ect), I believe this is probably one of the better stances for peace.
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Re: Obama to no longer pressure Israel on settlements

Post by K. A. Pital »

I completely agree with Kane here. Not only is the history of IvP much more complex than Shep's snippets of "wow, Palestinians destroy village here, Israelis destroy village there and also start colonizing Palestine and turning its citizens into inhabitants of walled-off ghettoes", but the military goals of Israel are not aided by moving hundreds of thousands of civilians into these territories. If anything, they are endangering civilians, making military tasks more complex and all that.

I could understand if the places had industry which required hundreds of thousands of Israelis. It does not. Israelis are creating shit on the fly. Yes, that is colonization, and no amount of talk-around will change it.
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Re: Obama to no longer pressure Israel on settlements

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Stas Bush wrote:I completely agree with Kane here. Not only is the history of IvP much more complex than Shep's snippets of "wow, Palestinians destroy village here, Israelis destroy village there and also start colonizing Palestine and turning its citizens into inhabitants of walled-off ghettoes", but the military goals of Israel are not aided by moving hundreds of thousands of civilians into these territories. If anything, they are endangering civilians, making military tasks more complex and all that.

I could understand if the places had industry which required hundreds of thousands of Israelis. It does not. Israelis are creating shit on the fly. Yes, that is colonization, and no amount of talk-around will change it.
Not disagreeing with you by any means. I think oversimplification of the conflict and the extremes of the narratives are probably among the bigger setbacks to peace then anything either side can inflict on the other.
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Re: Obama to no longer pressure Israel on settlements

Post by eyl »

Kane Starkiller wrote:Whatever injustices occurred before 1948 were more than made up during the 1948 war when Israel occupied a much greater portion of land than was planned in UN partition plan. Furthermore Israel signed the armistice agreement so at that point any further expansion had no legal or moral, if you will, connection to whatever happened to Jewish villages before 1948.
I'm not sure how applicable those are, certainly from a legal POV; the UN partition plan was rejected (forcibly) by the Palestinians and other Arabs, and you could argue that it isn't legally binding in the frst place, being a UNGA rather than a UNSC resolution. As for the armistice agreements, they weren't signed with the Palestinians, and they specifically note that the armistice lines are not final borders (e.g., see Article V in the Israel-Egypt Armistice Agreement.
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Re: Obama to no longer pressure Israel on settlements

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by their own admission the israelis had no intention of keeping it either
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