Island Nation disappearing

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Stravo
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Island Nation disappearing

Post by Stravo »

See here.

It is an interesting question - when does a nation cease to exist and what happens to its people? What rights do they have? Do they still have enforceable trade agreements and treaties? My guess is that if your nation physically disappears it can no longer be said to exist but there are examples of governements in exile and such so who knows?

Also underlying this whole article is that old boogeyman - climate change. Are we still going to be debating this even as entire islands vanish into the sea? Perhaps if it was Ireland or England there might be more old white men caring about this issue.


The full text of the article below
If an island state vanishes, is it still a nation?
By CHARLES J. HANLEY, AP Special Correspondent Charles J. Hanley, Ap Special Correspondent
Mon Dec 6, 2:27 pm ET

CANCUN, Mexico – Encroaching seas in the far Pacific are raising the salt level in the wells of the Marshall Islands. Waves threaten to cut one sliver of an island in two. "It's getting worse," says Kaminaga Kaminaga, the tiny nation's climate change coordinator.

The rising ocean raises questions, too: What happens if the 61,000 Marshallese must abandon their low-lying atolls? Would they still be a nation? With a U.N. seat? With control of their old fisheries and their undersea minerals? Where would they live, and how would they make a living? Who, precisely, would they and their children become?

For years global negotiations to act on climate change have dragged on, with little to show. Parties to the 193-nation U.N. climate treaty are meeting again in this Caribbean resort, but no one expects decisive action to roll back the industrial, agricultural and transport emissions blamed for global warming — and consequently for swelling seas.

From 7,000 miles (11,000 kilometers) away, the people of the Marshalls — and of Kiribati, Tuvalu and other atoll nations beyond — can only wonder how many more years they'll be able to cope.

"People who built their homes close to shore, all they can do is get more rocks to rebuild the seawall in front day by day," said Kaminaga, who is in Cancun with the Marshallese delegation to the U.N. talks.

The Marshallese government is looking beyond today, however, to those ultimate questions of nationhood, displacement and rights.

"We're facing a set of issues unique in the history of the system of nation-states," Dean Bialek, a New York-based adviser to the Republic of the Marshall Islands who is also in Cancun, told The Associated Press. "We're confronting existential issues associated with climate impacts that are not adequately addressed in the international legal framework."

The Marshallese government took a first step to confront these issues by asking for advice from the Center for Climate Change Law at New York's Columbia University. The center's director, Michael B. Gerrard, in turn has asked legal scholars worldwide to assemble at Columbia next May to begin to piece together answers.

Nations have faded into history through secession — recently with the breakup of the former Yugoslavia, for example — or through conquest or ceding their territory to other countries.

But "no country has ever physically disappeared, and it's a real void in the law," Gerrard said during an interview in New York.

The U.N. network of climate scientists projects that seas, expanding from heat and from the runoff of melting land ice, may rise by up to 1.94 feet (0.59 meters) by 2100, swamping much of the scarce land of coral atolls.

But the islands may become uninhabitable long before waves wash over them, because of the saline contamination of water supplies and ruining of crops, and because warming is expected to produce more threatening tropical storms.

"If a country like Tuvalu or Kiribati were to become uninhabitable, would the people be stateless? What's their position in international law?" asked Australian legal scholar Jane McAdam. "The short answer is, it depends. It's complicated."

McAdam, of the University of New South Wales, has traveled in the atoll nations and studied the legal history.

As far as islanders keeping their citizenship and sovereignty if they abandon their homelands, she said by telephone from Sydney, "it's unclear when a state would end because of climate change. It would come down to what the international community was prepared to tolerate" — that is, whether the U.N. General Assembly would move to take a seat away from a displaced people.

The 1951 global treaty on refugees, mandating that nations shelter those fleeing because of persecution, does not cover the looming situation of those displaced by climate change. Some advocate negotiating a new international pact obliging similar treatment for environmental refugees.

In the case of the Marshallese, the picture is murkier. Under a compact with Washington, citizens of the former U.S. trusteeship territory have the right to freely enter the U.S. for study or work, but their right to permanent residency must be clarified, government advisers say.

The islanders worry, too, about their long-term economic rights. The wide scattering of the Marshalls' 29 atolls, 2,300 miles (3,700 kilometers) southwest of Hawaii, give them an exclusive economic zone of 800,000 square miles (2 million square kilometers) of ocean, an area the size of Mexico.

The tuna coursing through those waters are the Marshalls' chief resource, exploited by selling licenses to foreign fishing fleets. "If their islands go underwater, what becomes of their fishing rights?" Gerrard asked. Potentially just as important: revenues from magnesium and other sea-floor minerals that geologists have been exploring in recent years.

While lawyers at next May's New York conference begin to sort out the puzzle of disappeared nations, the Marshallese will grapple with the growing problems.

The "top priority," Kaminaga said, is to save the isthmus linking the Marshalls' Jaluit island to its airport, a link now swept by high tides.

Meantime, a lingering drought this year led islanders to tap deeper into their wells, finding salty water requiring them to deploy emergency desalination units. And "parts of the islands are eroding away," Kaminaga said, as undermined lines of coconut palms topple into the sea.

This week in Cancun and in the months to come, the Marshalls' representatives will seek international aid for climate adaptation. They envision such projects as a Jaluit causeway, replanting of protective vegetation on shorelines, and a 3-mile-long (5-kilometer-long) seawall protecting their capital, Majuro, from the Pacific's rising tides.

Islanders' hopes are fading, however, for quick, decisive action to slash global emissions and save their remote spits of land for the next century.

"If all these financial and diplomatic tools don't work, I think some countries are looking at some kind of legal measures," said Dessima Williams, Grenada's U.N. ambassador and chair of a group of small island-nations. Those measures might include appeals to the International Court of Justice or other forums for compensation, a difficult route at best.

In the end, islanders wonder, too, what will happen to their culture, their history, their identity with a homeland — even to their ancestors — if they must leave.

"Cemeteries along the coastline are being eroded. Gravesites are falling into the sea," Kaminaga said. "Even in death we're affected."
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Re: Island Nation disappearing

Post by StarshipTitanic »

I guess God lied when he said he wouldn't flood the Earth again.

The legal link to the US might help American lawmakers re-realize the importance of climate change. News outlets would eat up the story of 50,000 people begging for permanent residency here because their islands were being washed into the sea (due to our pollution).
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Re: Island Nation disappearing

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There actually is some precedent for relocating an entire nation, though, as usual, the story is not all cheerful and happy. In North America several indigenous tribes/nations were forcibly relocated away from their original territories, yet still retain their identity. The one I am most familar with is the Cherokee Nation which was forcibly relocated to Oklahoma from Appalachia (from Georgia up through the Carolinas, Virgina, Tennessee, etc.) in the early 1800's. They still retain the identity, culture, language, laws, and a limited sovereignty. (Some Cherokee who evaded the relocation now make up the Eastern Band Cherokee, but let's not get sidetracked.)

So, there is precedent for uprooting an entire nation and relocating them. For the Marshall Islanders, though, it would require someone being willing to give them land, and it is also quite likely that they'd find themselves in a different climate that may or may not be near the sea. Getting a country to absorb them as immigrants is more likely, but that would essentially mean giving up being an independent nation even if they can retain their identity as an ethnic group.
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Re: Island Nation disappearing

Post by General Trelane (Retired) »

StarshipTitanic wrote:The legal link to the US might help American lawmakers re-realize the importance of climate change. News outlets would eat up the story of 50,000 people begging for permanent residency here because their islands were being washed into the sea (due to our pollution).
The consequences of rising sea levels due to climate change have been well understood for some time. The deniers will continue to assert that this is all part of a natural cycle with minimal (if any) anthropogenic causes.
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Re: Island Nation disappearing

Post by Crossroads Inc. »

General Trelane (Retired) wrote:
StarshipTitanic wrote:The legal link to the US might help American lawmakers re-realize the importance of climate change. News outlets would eat up the story of 50,000 people begging for permanent residency here because their islands were being washed into the sea (due to our pollution).
The consequences of rising sea levels due to climate change have been well understood for some time. The deniers will continue to assert that this is all part of a natural cycle with minimal (if any) anthropogenic causes.
This is of course spot on. Most of the scum on the right don't say it isn't happening at all. Only that it isn't cause by Man. Thus any disastors, or floods and nations vanishing, all of it is just part of some "natural cycle" so they feel justified in looking the other way and ignoring it cause hell, it isn't effecting THEM.
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Re: Island Nation disappearing

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Broomstick wrote:There actually is some precedent for relocating an entire nation, though, as usual, the story is not all cheerful and happy. In North America several indigenous tribes/nations were forcibly relocated away from their original territories, yet still retain their identity. The one I am most familar with is the Cherokee Nation which was forcibly relocated to Oklahoma from Appalachia (from Georgia up through the Carolinas, Virgina, Tennessee, etc.) in the early 1800's. They still retain the identity, culture, language, laws, and a limited sovereignty. (Some Cherokee who evaded the relocation now make up the Eastern Band Cherokee, but let's not get sidetracked.)

So, there is precedent for uprooting an entire nation and relocating them. For the Marshall Islanders, though, it would require someone being willing to give them land, and it is also quite likely that they'd find themselves in a different climate that may or may not be near the sea. Getting a country to absorb them as immigrants is more likely, but that would essentially mean giving up being an independent nation even if they can retain their identity as an ethnic group.
As the article said, their chief resource is selling licences to fish in their massive exclusive economic zone. A zone which won't legally exist if their islands sink, at least according to current law. The "precedent" of relocating Cherokees so white settlers could steal their land is irrelevant. Cherokees then and now aren't considered sovereign like the Marshall Islands are. Obviously large groups of people have been moved in the past for various reasons. You might as well cite the Soviets exiling Germans or Kalmyks to Siberia as a precedent.
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Re: Island Nation disappearing

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Yes, I know the Cherokee aren't independent as the Marshall Islanders are, hence "limited sovereignty". Nonetheless, the Cherokee Nation has a constitution, its own legislative, executive, and judicial branches, and on their land their law applies, not Oklahoma State law or Federal law. Of course, over the last few centuries such theory has sometimes (actually, often) been overlooked in practice, but if you commit a crime on Cherokee land you will not be tried by the state or federal courts, you'll be tried by the Cherokee. Members of Indian nations in the US are also allowed to travel under the own passports, not those of the US. They're a lot more sovereign than people realize, and a lot more than some would like (New York State is currently butting heads with the Seneca Nation, for example) though equally obviously they aren't fully independent.

And no, it's not irrelevant - a nation was physically moved, but still exists as a cultural identity. As I mentioned, the story wasn't all happiness, but it's a far cry from being dispersed to the ends of the earth, or their group ceasing to exist entirely. They might have simply been butchered in place. That doesn't make what happened right, it was still a bad thing, but the Cherokee survived the experience as horrible as it was.

In fact. the Marshalls weren't an independent nation between 1885 and 1986. As it stands now, they're in a "Compact of Free Association" with the US, where the US has taken on responsibility for their defense in exchange for certain concessions (primarily a military base and presence). It also obligates the US to provide disaster relief, and I'd say "sinking into the sea" should qualify (but unfortunately for the Marshallese I don't get a say). I very much doubt the Marshallese could enforce their fishing rights without the US military standing behind them.

I'm saying it's not beyond possibility for the Marshallese to be given land somewhere, where they can continue to function as a unique entity. It wouldn't have to be the US, but given there is already a relationship there it makes some sense that it would be somewhere in the US. There is enough Federal land to carve out holdings equal in area to their current territory, but it wouldn't be with such ready access to the sea. They would have to reinvent themselves economically, which is no small task. It is possible, other groups have done it. It would definitely impact their culture significantly. They could have at least as much sovereignty as Native US tribes, including their own current government and legal systems being transplanted along with the people. If they could retain legal rights to sell fishing licenses and retain title to mineral wealth in the area their islands were previously so much the better.

Is it going to happen? Frankly, I find it a bit unlikely. On the other hand, it would please me no end to see it offered to them. It would please me even more if it were offered by other nations as well. Even if that happened, though, the problem remains that they most likely wouldn't wind up in the same climate nor on a chain of atolls - moving them would entail significant cultural changes. To me, that seems preferable to drowning in place. We should ask the Marshallese what they'd prefer given the circumstances.

What are the alternatives here?
1) Let them drown - I'd like to think the world wouldn't let that happen these days, but then, I'm a hopeless optimist

2) Refugees in another place. Which, I suspect, in history has been the "best case" scenario for displaced people. But that means becoming citizens of another land, under someone else's laws and government. They might retain an ethnic identity (though more likely after a dozen generations they'd disperse into the surrounding population). They would cease to be a nation in any sense of the term.

3) Limited sovereignty on a reservation - admittedly, "reservation" has gotten a bad rap over the past century or so, with good reason, but if this were done fairly (yes, I hear laughing, too) it gives them the best chance of retaining any status or identity as a nation, albeit a displaced one. One major difference this time around would be the Marshallese wanting to go elsewhere (in the sense they prefer dry land to swimming endlessly in the middle of the Pacific) and it would entail the use of force and illegal means of the Cherokee displacement (which the SCotUS of the time declared illegal, but which was ignored by the President and military)

Does anyone have a number 4?

Perhaps we should allow the Marshallese to decide - assuming we can get sincere offers on all of the above. Goodness knows, between the Germans, the Japanese, the UN, and the Americans they've probably been jerked around enough the last few centuries, might be time to let them have a say in their own destiny. Frankly, if the the above were sincerely offered I'd expect some would choose #2 and some #3. Hell, they might all hold a vote and decide to become French citizens (or whatever). For all I know they'd prefer living in the Canadian arctic or Greenland where they could retain a sea-going culture rather than moving somewhere warmer that's landlocked.

For damn sure, though, there isn't a habitable group of atolls in the Pacific that are unclaimed AND can support human life indefinitely. If their islands go under the waves they'll have to move, and it won't be to another group of islands.
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Re: Island Nation disappearing

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Broomstick wrote:Does anyone have a number 4?
4) They are only 70 square miles, according to Wikipedia. Maybe just build wide concrete towers on each island, top it with a thin layer of dirt, and claim the islands still exist, allowing them to maintain the claim on the fisheries and whatnot. Might be easier than the headache of relocating them, and allow the nation that helps them more leverage over the extraction of those resources.
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Re: Island Nation disappearing

Post by KlavoHunter »

Futuristic floating cities. 8)
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Re: Island Nation disappearing

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Does that 70 square miles include the islands the US fucked up with atomic testing or not?

The tower approach is a new one to me... I suppose it has some potential. Would only work for small areas, of course.

Would still suggest asking the Marshellese their preferences, though.
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Re: Island Nation disappearing

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Some Indian tribes have treaties with the United States--like the Makah people in Washington State--which give them exclusive fishing and whaling privileges. They could sign a treaty becoming part of the US, receiving some undeveloped land on the US pacific coast--I would say near one of the very small US coastal port communities in northern California or Oregon where the port is just a sleep little tourist destination presently or has serious problems. Let's say we give them some federal forest land near Eureka, and then buy them the site of an old mill or something on Humboldt Bay. They can maintain deep-water trawlers there, and under the treaty with the US, the US will internationally guarantee their exlcusive right to minerals and fishing in their EEZ. Anything they can't handle themselves, they sell licenses for, and thus they'd be functionally like any other one of the limited-sovereignty coastal Indian nations with exclusive fishing rights in some areas.
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Re: Island Nation disappearing

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Even if the majority of the population winds up in exile, or on house boats tethered to glorified concrete piers, keeping legal control of their fisheries, their primary source of wealth as I understand it, would help them survive.

The idea of floating cities reminds me of an old oversized picture book I had, The World of Tomorrow. Such optimism!
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Re: Island Nation disappearing

Post by Junghalli »

Darmalus wrote:4) They are only 70 square miles, according to Wikipedia. Maybe just build wide concrete towers on each island, top it with a thin layer of dirt, and claim the islands still exist, allowing them to maintain the claim on the fisheries and whatnot. Might be easier than the headache of relocating them, and allow the nation that helps them more leverage over the extraction of those resources.
KlavoHunter wrote:Futuristic floating cities. 8)
Since their problem is their islands being very close to sea level, I wonder if simply raising portions of their land area artificially by a few meters is practical, as it should keep that area above sea level for the near future.
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Re: Island Nation disappearing

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If it was possible to turn them into floating cities, or into elevated cities... who'd pay for doing it?
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Re: Island Nation disappearing

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Broomstick wrote:And no, it's not irrelevant - a nation was physically moved, but still exists as a cultural identity. As I mentioned, the story wasn't all happiness, but it's a far cry from being dispersed to the ends of the earth, or their group ceasing to exist entirely. They might have simply been butchered in place. That doesn't make what happened right, it was still a bad thing, but the Cherokee survived the experience as horrible as it was.
Yes, it is irrelevant because the article is about the unprecedented legal problem of what happens if the land to which sovereignty is attached sinks beneath the sea. The Cherokee relocation in no way presents a legal precedent for how to react to this situation. Vaguely similar situations do not qualify as a precedent.
Broomstick wrote:If they could retain legal rights to sell fishing licenses and retain title to mineral wealth in the area their islands were previously so much the better.
Yeah, that's the whole point of the article. None of those rights exist in international waters. Do they deserve any at all? How do we decide? This is what makes the situation legally interesting.
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Re: Island Nation disappearing

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StarshipTitanic wrote:
Broomstick wrote:And no, it's not irrelevant - a nation was physically moved, but still exists as a cultural identity. As I mentioned, the story wasn't all happiness, but it's a far cry from being dispersed to the ends of the earth, or their group ceasing to exist entirely. They might have simply been butchered in place. That doesn't make what happened right, it was still a bad thing, but the Cherokee survived the experience as horrible as it was.
Yes, it is irrelevant because the article is about the unprecedented legal problem of what happens if the land to which sovereignty is attached sinks beneath the sea. The Cherokee relocation in no way presents a legal precedent for how to react to this situation. Vaguely similar situations do not qualify as a precedent.
It doesn't qualify as a prescriptive precedent, it is a historical example of a nation being moved. It could serve as much as a cautionary tale as a possible option. It shows it is possible to retain identity as a nation after relocation. It also demonstrates a lot of things NOT to do.

I fail to see why you object to studying history and possibly learning something from it. Yes, a nation sinking beneath the sea is unprecedented in historical times, but nations have been displaced. The details are different, but surely there are common issues regardless of cause.
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Re: Island Nation disappearing

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Broomstick wrote:It doesn't qualify as a prescriptive precedent, it is a historical example of a nation being moved. It could serve as much as a cautionary tale as a possible option. It shows it is possible to retain identity as a nation after relocation. It also demonstrates a lot of things NOT to do.

I fail to see why you object to studying history and possibly learning something from it. Yes, a nation sinking beneath the sea is unprecedented in historical times, but nations have been displaced. The details are different, but surely there are common issues regardless of cause.
I guess what I fail to see is why you're more fixated on rehashing details from clearly awful but common situations like the Cherokee relocation rather than discuss the unique implications of this very novel situation. We're not going to get anywhere with this back and forth so I give up.

Considering the possibility of the islands becoming uninhabitable before they're submerged, maybe the Marshallese would accept a deal similar to the Alaskan natives? The US could annex the islands and give the ex-Marshallese shares in a corporation that administered the fishing and mining rights in their former country plus a relocation fund to pay for settlement somewhere else.

I don't know how well the Alaskan native corporations work, though.
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Re: Island Nation disappearing

Post by ThomasP »

LadyTevar wrote:If it was possible to turn them into floating cities, or into elevated cities... who'd pay for doing it?
Well, there's always the transhumanist option :lol:
Here's an off-the-wall idea that has some appeal to me ... as a long-time Transtopian fantasist and world traveler....

The desert island nation of Nauru needs money badly, and has a population of less than 15,000

There are problems with water supply, but they could surely be solved with some technical ingenuity.

The land area is about 8 square miles. But it could be expanded! Surely it's easier to extend an island with concrete platforms or anchored floating platforms of some other kind, than to seastead in the open ocean.

The country is a democracy. Currently it may not be possible to immigrate there except as a temporary tourist or business visitor. But I'd bet this could be made negotiable.

Suppose 15,000 adult transhumanists (along with some kids, one would assume) decided to emigrate to Nauru en masse over a 5-year period, on condition they could obtain full citizenship. Perhaps this could be negotiated with the Nauruan government.

Then after 5 years we would have a democracy in which transhumanists were the majority.

Isn't this the easiest way to create a transhumanist nation? With all the amazing future possibilities that that implies?

This would genuinely be of benefit to the residents of Nauru, which now has 90% unemployment. Unemployment would be reduced close to zero, and the economy would be tremendously enlarged. A win-win situation. Transhumanists would get freedom, and Nauruans would get a first-world economy.

Considerable infrastructure would need to be built. A deal would need to be struck with the government, in which, roughly,

* They agreed to allow a certain number of outsiders citizenship, and to allow certain infrastructure development
* Over a couple years, suitable infrastructure was built to supply electrical power, Internet, more frequent flights, etc.
* Then, over a few years after that, the new population would flow in


This much emigration would make Nauru crowded, but not nearly as crowded as some cities. And with a seasteading mindset, it's easy to see that the island is expandable.

To ensure employment of the relocated transhumanists, we would need to get a number of companies to agree to open Nauru offices. But this would likely be tractable, given the preference of firms to have offices in major tech centers. Living expenses in Nauru would be much lower than in, say, Silicon Valley, so expenses would be lower.

Tourism could become a major income stream, given the high density of interesting people which would make Nauru into a cultural mecca. Currently there is only one small beach on Nauru (which is said to be somewhat dirty), but creation of a beautiful artificial beach on the real ocean is not a huge technological feat.

It would also be a great place to experiment with aquaculture and vertical farming.

What say you? Let's do it!


P.S.

Other candidates for the tropical island Transtopia besides Nauru would be Tuvalu and Kiribati; but Kiribati's population is much larger, and Tuvalu is spread among many islands, and is also about to become underwater due to global warming. So Nauru would seem the number one option. Though, Tuvalu could be an interesting possibility also, especially if we offered to keep the island above water by building concrete platforms or some such (a big undertaking, but much easier than seasteading). This would obviously be a major selling point to the government.
I'm posting that article with tongue firmly in cheek mind you, but absurdities of that scenario aside, there are some -- well, interesting, concepts there.
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Re: Island Nation disappearing

Post by Zac Naloen »

If they don't want to leave their homes, which is fair enough people get sentimental about this sort of thing, then there is going to need to be a concerted effort to "Dam" the ocean like the Dutch did to reclaim the low lands.

This morally of course should be paid for by aid donations from other nation seeing as we all contributed to the problem however, somehow I expect this may generate some resistance from certain circles.
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Re: Island Nation disappearing

Post by Akkleptos »

Regarding the OP, in my Law lessons (yes, I used to be a Law student too, once); the three prerequisite elements for a State (nation, for Americans) to exist are:


1.- Population (the State is made up of people. No people, no State);
2.- Territory (upon which the State will exert its sovereign power);
3.- Government (which rules the above mentioned entities as a unit)

So, IMHO; without a territory, it would be kind of difficult to keep a viable State going. Think of the US in that global-warming-turned-nightmare portrayed in "The Day After Tomorrow". How long would it take for the surviving Americans (even with all their economic power, based on the then inaccesible gold reserves and then non-existing State-enforced securities and trade advantages) to be assimilated into Mexico and the rest of Latin America (which, of course, would also undergo a great degree of immigration-driven changes themselves)?

(BTW, here we are bracing for what could be one of the worst winters in a long time).
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Re: Island Nation disappearing

Post by Thanas »

Akkleptos wrote:Regarding the OP, in my Law lessons (yes, I used to be a Law student too, once); the three prerequisite elements for a State (nation, for Americans) to exist are:


1.- Population (the State is made up of people. No people, no State);
2.- Territory (upon which the State will exert its sovereign power);
3.- Government (which rules the above mentioned entities as a unit)
Yes, that is the valid standard states theory proposed by Georg Jellinek. However, do note that there is another theory, the constitutive theory which states that a state may exist if recognised by enough nations or via treaty.
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Re: Island Nation disappearing

Post by Akkleptos »

Thanas wrote:Yes, that is the valid standard states theory proposed by Georg Jellinek. However, do note that there is another theory, the constitutive theory which states that a state may exist if recognised by enough nations or via treaty.
I wasn't aware of that one, thanks.

It is a much more practical and political view, indeed... Very Realpolitik.

Still, on a more philosophical perspective, wouldn't a population that culturally and politically view themselves as a nation, pledging allegiance to a somewhat unified "ruling body" count as a nation -conceptually speaking, and independently of how many other States recognise their existence and status as a State-?

Because, I understand that the ultimate practical test of fire is whether your "State" gets international recognition from enough of the big world players, but it would be a tad sad to think that the only thing that counts.

Say, what if someone created an artificial island on international waters, went there with a lot of friends, family and like minded followers; then found the secret for practical cold fusion and traded that technology for international recognition as a Free State? Would that really qualify as a State?

And now, say the Basques were to accomplish something like that, or the Romani, or the Lobavitchers or the Amish (okay, maybe not a technological breakthrough -that's just an example- but some other important resource)? Could they be recognised as a Free State?
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Re: Island Nation disappearing

Post by Simon_Jester »

Another issue is the philosophical question of whether a state can exist in the absence of other states- not just without their recognition but without their existence.

If you become a state by being recognized by other states, where does the first state come from?

Yes, this is not a very important question, I grant.
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Re: Island Nation disappearing

Post by Starglider »

Simon_Jester wrote:If you become a state by being recognized by other states, where does the first state come from?
Two proto-states, which meet all the other criteria for statehood (monopoly over force within their borders etc) could mutually recognise each other, e.g. in a bilateral treaty. I would certainly consider sufficient to satisfy the technical definition.
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Re: Island Nation disappearing

Post by Thanas »

Akkleptos wrote:
Thanas wrote:Yes, that is the valid standard states theory proposed by Georg Jellinek. However, do note that there is another theory, the constitutive theory which states that a state may exist if recognised by enough nations or via treaty.
I wasn't aware of that one, thanks.

It is a much more practical and political view, indeed... Very Realpolitik.

Still, on a more philosophical perspective, wouldn't a population that culturally and politically view themselves as a nation, pledging allegiance to a somewhat unified "ruling body" count as a nation -conceptually speaking, and independently of how many other States recognise their existence and status as a State-?

Because, I understand that the ultimate practical test of fire is whether your "State" gets international recognition from enough of the big world players, but it would be a tad sad to think that the only thing that counts.

Say, what if someone created an artificial island on international waters, went there with a lot of friends, family and like minded followers; then found the secret for practical cold fusion and traded that technology for international recognition as a Free State? Would that really qualify as a State?

Yes, both in the Jelinek and the constitutive theory sense.
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