Is Russia better under Putin or Yeltsin?

[mrbubbles]

Does anyone know the answer?

[K. A. Pital]

Um... you do realize one is the continuation of the other? *eyes suspiciously* In any case, both are bad. A plague on both your houses, say I.

As for Russia, Russia is better when the price of oil is higher and is worse when the price of oil is lower. All else is the roughly the same - in place of Yeltsin's violent semi-feudal system of near anarchy, comes the Pinochetian authoritarianism of Putin, where mob that was crushing the skulls of bystanders now also crushes the skulls of political opponents and undesireables. A nightmare from beginning to the end.

[Sarevok]

Russia is known as a nation of great scientists and engineers. So how is Russia's science and industry doing ? Russian people lived under some terrible times during first decades of consumes. Yet despite it they became a leading technological and industrial powerhouse. Is Putin only delivering oppresion and corruption ? Or does his rule have far reaching positive consquences like Stalin did ? Or is he merely continueing Yeltsin era decline of Russia at an albeit slower rate ?

[K. A. Pital]

Russia is known as a nation of great scientists and engineers.

Great engineers are good, as are great scientists, and Russia has them still (Perelman, for example). The problems come with the infrastructure. Fundamental science was allowed to wither away after the USSR collapsed, and there's scant few people ready to devote their lives to a poorly paid, unsecure job.

So how is Russia's science and industry doing ?

Poorly, to sum up. I could go into details.

Russian people lived under some terrible times during first decades of consumes. Yet despite it they became a leading technological and industrial powerhouse.

Decades of consumerism or decades of communism? *eyes* It doesn't really matter - Russia was only industrializing back then and the technology level did not matter that much. 1930's tech could be easily replicated with basic industrial tools. Not to say it was an easy task, but it was certainly a different situation. Starting from a low base to high base. Today the situation is a bit different - the prior existing base is falling apart due to corruption and privatization.

Is Putin only delivering oppresion and corruption ? Or does his rule have far reaching positive consquences like Stalin did ? Or is he merely continueing Yeltsin era decline of Russia at an albeit slower rate ?

No. Putin's rule does not deliver positive consequences. Oil prices and cheap Western credit did. Once they fell apart, there was nothing left to prop up Russia, and this is why the impact of the current crisis has been so sharp. Malaise in science is continuing and worsening even, because it has been 20 years and the neglect is starting to take a heavy toll.

[Marcus Aurelius]

No. Putin's rule does not deliver positive consequences. Oil prices and cheap Western credit did. Once they fell apart, there was nothing left to prop up Russia, and this is why the impact of the current crisis has been so sharp. Malaise in science is continuing and worsening even, because it has been 20 years and the neglect is starting to take a heavy toll.

Well, oil prices are up again and are likely to remain there until the next global recession, which admittedly could come as early as next year depending on the circumstances.

[K. A. Pital]

No. Putin's rule does not deliver positive consequences. Oil prices and cheap Western credit did. Once they fell apart, there was nothing left to prop up Russia, and this is why the impact of the current crisis has been so sharp. Malaise in science is continuing and worsening even, because it has been 20 years and the neglect is starting to take a heavy toll.

Well, oil prices are up again and are likely to remain there until the next global recession, which admittedly could come as early as next year depending on the circumstances.

The prices rise and fall, but the fundamentals of scientific education in Russia are getting worse year to year. The reforms enacted in Putin's years only contributed to the worsening. Like I said before, a sharp reduction in math and physics classes, a reduction in number of foreign languages offered by gymnasium-status primary schools and the strike-out of subjects like astronomy from the curriculum leaves no other choice but to consider this a planned lowering of the education level. And this will backfire 10-20 years away from now. I'm not sure there'll be a Russia left to feel the consequences, as this is about the time when Russian oil deposits will be contracting rapidly.

[Coyote]

Stas, I'm curious-- as an outsider, Putin appears to have stabilized Russia from what would have been a free-fall into organized crime feudalism... what do you thing needs to be done that has not been done, and where do you think too much time and effort has been spent that was unnecessary?

[Bernkastel]

To the OP, I would say that the real question to ask is which one is worse. To that, I would say Putin is worse. To me, Putin's team seems to have learnt from the Yeltsin era and adapted themselves according to those lessons. It is actually possible to look back at the Yeltsin era and imagine him being defeated. Putin in comparison still has a positive popularity rating and has done much to ensure that he and his friends will get the most from Russia in terms of personal enrichment. When the negative effects of their policies set in, I doubt they will be suffering even slightly. In essence, the difference is that Putin is better at controlling the reins of power and keeping the Russian people under his thumb than Yeltsin was.

[Coyote]

I think Putin's image of being popular with the people of Russia is inflated by the West. I sense an undercurrent of resentment at the shady business ties, the journalist killings, and other stuff... but that is mostly speculation on my part. I think the US especially wants to paint Putin up as the unifying big bad in case we ever want to fire up the ol' Evil Empire propaganda again.

[Zaune]

As far as I'm aware, Putin has yet to turn up to overseas diplomatic engagements while drunk as a lord. That has to count for something.

[K. A. Pital]

Stas, I'm curious-- as an outsider, Putin appears to have stabilized Russia from what would have been a free-fall into organized crime feudalism... what do you thing needs to be done that has not been done, and where do you think too much time and effort has been spent that was unnecessary?

Putin has stabilized Russia in a neofeudal system that sprung up in Yeltsin's times, if you ask my opinion. What I think "needs to be done"? First, stop the crime and corruption, by whatever means necessart. Next, stop the destruction and privatization of the education system and the privatization of healthcare. This is something that Yeltsin only gave hints at, but Putin actually carried out. These are the basics. I can walk in Shenzhen without fearing for my life at every corner, and I can behave the same way in Minsk, probably. But I cannot count on the same in Moscow or Leningrad, or even my home city. This is the first issue that has to be rectified, because so as long as Russia's murder and crime rate are close to Brazil, nothing good will come out of it. Murders of activists will continue and they will be written off on the crime situation. Finally, stop the attempts of the Church to destroy the separation of the church and state. The Church recently is becoming more and more dangerous. Considering it harbors more than a few monarchists and fascists, and has now been given keys to preach their religion in public schools with the introduction of religious lessons, I pity the children of modern Russia.