MJOLNIR Armours vs. KATARN Armour

[Stark]

I still don't understand why SPARTANS aren't given .75 Armor-Piercing High-Explosive Grenade Launchers as a basic sidearm.

They can use it. If your worried about ammo, at least give them automatic sniper rifles with much shorter barrels and huge clips.

You're an idiot.

That said, it's strange the SPARTAN armour doesn't have more integral capabilities, but it was poorly thought out to begin with.

[noncredible]

Wrong, for a Spartan, it takes infinity (Or enough to kill him by lack of food and water or gravity) 7.62 rounds to kill him, as they won't penetrate his armor.

The fallacy has mutated!

[CaptHawkeye]

That said, it's strange the SPARTAN armour doesn't have more integral capabilities, but it was poorly thought out to begin with.

Bungie only recently figured out this strange contraption called "night vision" existed 30 years ago.

Not like it matters. Most video games with night vision have laughably bright "night" time anyway.

[someone_else]

Are there any statistics on the speeds of Halo slugthrowers anywhere? I would assume they are faster than 21st century weapons (musket vs sniper rifle).

I can only say something about bullets and air friction.
In general anything going faster than 3-4 km/s will have serious overheating problems. I.e. will look like a tracer round even if it is not just to keep from melting away.
It will also have to be made of something more durable than the modern bullets otherwise the erosion will eat up enough bullet to send it ludicrously off-course (yeah, lead isn't known for its thermal properties). Tungsten would be good.

Modern bullets can move at around 1.5 km/s max.
If HALO bullets are exactly the same as the modern ones, then reaching more speed than 2 km/s is unlikely imho.


That said, I'd take the Clone trooper armor over the Spartan's anytime.

[Molyneux]

On a side note, I don't know how I feel about learning that Kyle Katarn's name could easily be translated into English as something like "Tom Tiger". Did they really back-name a predator after him? Did someone somewhere think that that made him sound more badass, or something?

[Sarevok]

Are there any statistics on the speeds of Halo slugthrowers anywhere? I would assume they are faster than 21st century weapons (musket vs sniper rifle).

I can only say something about bullets and air friction.
In general anything going faster than 3-4 km/s will have serious overheating problems. I.e. will look like a tracer round even if it is not just to keep from melting away.
It will also have to be made of something more durable than the modern bullets otherwise the erosion will eat up enough bullet to send it ludicrously off-course (yeah, lead isn't known for its thermal properties). Tungsten would be good.

Modern bullets can move at around 1.5 km/s max.
If HALO bullets are exactly the same as the modern ones, then reaching more speed than 2 km/s is unlikely imho.


That said, I'd take the Clone trooper armor over the Spartan's anytime.

Halo bullets are fired from guns held by ordinary humans. I doubt their muzzle velocity is radically different from anything that exists today.

[Sarevok]

On a side note, I don't know how I feel about learning that Kyle Katarn's name could easily be translated into English as something like "Tom Tiger". Did they really back-name a predator after him? Did someone somewhere think that that made him sound more badass, or something?

Kyle Katarn inherited his name from his father Morgan Katarn.

[someone_else]

Halo bullets are fired from guns held by ordinary humans. I doubt their muzzle velocity is radically different from anything that exists today.

Well, I don't know the HALO tech, but they may have better recoil compensation systems than nowaday's weapons. If you can place enough propellant (explosive) to shoot the projectile at 4+ km/s in a so tiny shell, you'll probably want to divert some of the gas to dampen the recoil at the expense of sheer muzzle speed.

I just told a way that should be a nitpicking-free way of determining the muzzle speed. If the bullet glows and is not a tracer, then it goes faster than modern weapons, if the bullet does not, then it goes more or less the same speed.

[Molyneux]

On a side note, I don't know how I feel about learning that Kyle Katarn's name could easily be translated into English as something like "Tom Tiger". Did they really back-name a predator after him? Did someone somewhere think that that made him sound more badass, or something?

Kyle Katarn inherited his name from his father Morgan Katarn.

Yes, but apparently it's also the name of a large, tameable, predatory animal native to Kashyyyk. Again, it's like a guy running around named "Lyle Leopard" - not completely unheard-of, but a little odd.

[someone_else]

Yes, but apparently it's also the name of a large, tameable, predatory animal native to Kashyyyk. Again, it's like a guy running around named "Lyle Leopard" - not completely unheard-of, but a little odd.

Native americans used names of natural stuff, like Sitting Bull or Red Cloud.
I assume it is common on low-tech civilizations that have some kind of religious link with the environment around them.

Edit: quoting failure fixed.

[Connor MacLeod]

I wouldn't assume KATARN uber-armor neccesarily has super-kinetic/projectiel resistance. The armor could just be overly specialized towards protection against thermal/energy weapons, at the cost of its protection against kinetic weapons (making it in essence the opposite of Storm trooper armor.) The few depictions of Katarn armor performance I remember would tend to argue that at least (cue mindless ranting about Karen Traviss.)

[Ritterin Sophia]

I wouldn't assume KATARN uber-armor neccesarily has super-kinetic/projectiel resistance. The armor could just be overly specialized towards protection against thermal/energy weapons, at the cost of its protection against kinetic weapons (making it in essence the opposite of Storm trooper armor.) The few depictions of Katarn armor performance I remember would tend to argue that at least (cue mindless ranting about Karen Traviss.)

Depends on the type, the one you're thinking of is Mark I, Mark II fixes that, and by Mark III they can take light artillery hits.

[Molyneux]

Yes, but apparently it's also the name of a large, tameable, predatory animal native to Kashyyyk. Again, it's like a guy running around named "Lyle Leopard" - not completely unheard-of, but a little odd.

Native americans used names of natural stuff, like Sitting Bull or Red Cloud.
I assume it is common on low-tech civilizations that have some kind of religious link with the environment around them.

Edit: quoting failure fixed.

I suppose that's true...and it doesn't seem that much more odd than "Skywalker", really. Still seemed a bit odd at first glance.

[Batman]

Wrong, for a Spartan, it takes infinity (Or enough to kill him by lack of food and water or gravity) 7.62 rounds to kill him, as they won't penetrate his armor.

The fallacy has mutated!

Misunderstanding of the No Limits fallacy. As long as the available laser firepower is below what your shields can handle you ARE immune to those lasers. You can fire a 30 MW laser at a 60MW shield until hell freezes over. The fallacy is the assumption they'd be immune to lasers period. Immunity to 7.62 rounds as present in universe /= immunity to bullets period.
By extension, unless SPARTAN armour is ablative even against relatively low power kinetic impactors (from what I gather in the related threads, HALO firearms don't seem to be massively more powerful than modern ones) it may very well be totally immune to 7.62 rounds as present in universe. Have fun trying to wear down the armour on a Leo 2 using a machine gun.
That doesn't necessarily mean the guy wearing the suit is. Just like Stormtrooper armour, which thanks to that stupid spear incident can apparently shrug off anything short of a 30mm AP round, CoM/CoE still apply-meaning all that energy and momentum has to go somewhere, that somewhere usually being the body of the wearer. I don't know enough about HALO to be able to tell wether or not somebody wearing SPARTAN armour can survive a 7.62 head hit, but I seriously doubt they're going to be able to ignore it.

[Chaotic Neutral]

I would assume that the helmet is solidly connected to the rest of the 1000 lbs of armor.

[Stark]

Have you even seen a picture of Spartan armour?

[Norade]

Misunderstanding of the No Limits fallacy. As long as the available laser firepower is below what your shields can handle you ARE immune to those lasers. You can fire a 30 MW laser at a 60MW shield until hell freezes over. The fallacy is the assumption they'd be immune to lasers period. Immunity to 7.62 rounds as present in universe /= immunity to bullets period.
By extension, unless SPARTAN armour is ablative even against relatively low power kinetic impactors (from what I gather in the related threads, HALO firearms don't seem to be massively more powerful than modern ones) it may very well be totally immune to 7.62 rounds as present in universe. Have fun trying to wear down the armour on a Leo 2 using a machine gun.
That doesn't necessarily mean the guy wearing the suit is. Just like Stormtrooper armour, which thanks to that stupid spear incident can apparently shrug off anything short of a 30mm AP round, CoM/CoE still apply-meaning all that energy and momentum has to go somewhere, that somewhere usually being the body of the wearer. I don't know enough about HALO to be able to tell wether or not somebody wearing SPARTAN armour can survive a 7.62 head hit, but I seriously doubt they're going to be able to ignore it.

HALO gameplay is cannon and he dies to 7.62mm rounds there, thus they obviously go through and are able to kill a Spartan.

[Chaotic Neutral]

Since when is gameplay cannon? In that case, being hit by a pistol in the back can kill you. KATARN all the way.

[Stark]

So I guess you HAVEN'T seen a picture of Spartan armour. PS, the helmet sits on your head, not your shoulders, so any sufficiently powerful hit to your head is just going to carry your skull away, safely within.

Then again, just hiding in the dark appears to defeat Spartan armour, sooooooo...

[Marcus Aurelius]

Not like it matters. Most video games with night vision have laughably bright "night" time anyway.

It's Hollywood fake night (also called day for night), shot with filters. La nuit américaine like the French put it
Most Hollywood movie night scenes were shot like that until the 1970s. Since then they mostly just use lights to make real night much more brighter than it really is, so that you can actually see something.

[Batman]

It's canon. 2n. One to either side of the o. Cannon is a large-calibre (within context) gun.

[noncredible]

The difference between a 30MW laser shooting at a 60MW shield and a bullet shooting at armour is that the armour doesnt have a constant power output; it dents. The shield can take 60MJ every second, the armour can take a set amount of force. So shooting at the armour continually will dent and destroy it.

[Batman]

The difference between a 30MW laser shooting at a 60MW shield and a bullet shooting at armour is that the armour doesnt have a constant power output; it dents. The shield can take 60MJ every second, the armour can take a set amount of force. So shooting at the armour continually will dent and destroy it.

Here's a .45 UMP and an infinte amount of bullets. Get back to me when you've worked your way through an Iowa's armour belt.

[Norade]

The difference between a 30MW laser shooting at a 60MW shield and a bullet shooting at armour is that the armour doesnt have a constant power output; it dents. The shield can take 60MJ every second, the armour can take a set amount of force. So shooting at the armour continually will dent and destroy it.

Here's a .45 UMP and an infinte amount of bullets. Get back to me when you've worked your way through an Iowa's armour belt.

Spartan armor is equal to that of a battleship now? Gameplay is canon MC's shields drop after something like 12 rounds and then 3 rounds after that will kill him. If you sneak up behind him and hit him with anything he also dies. You can thank Bungie for these little bits of absurdity.

Also, it's infinite, with an i between the n and the t; not infinte.

Hey Folks,

Bry has hit the nail on the head:

: Halo 'canon' can quite easily be viewed in a similar way as the kind of canon
: system in place with Star Wars.
: A certain hierarchy of priority.
: In other words, different levels of canon where the higher levels will
: override the lower ones whenever there is a contradiction.

Everything that Bungie has ever approved is canonical. But even then, certain things trump others. In order of canonical influence:

- The games rank first
- Published materials (books, comics, soundtrack liner notes etc.) rank second
- Marketing and PR materials third

And there's one codicil: the more recent items trump the older ones. So, for example, if some aspect of Halo 3's fiction contradicted Halo 2's, Halo 3's would be the gold standard.

Bungie doesn't like to retcon (i.e., deliberately change previously established facts), but sometimes it's necessary. Take for example the issue of the number of human worlds. The truth about the "800+" number? That was made up by a non-Bungie employee and never approved by us before the Halo: CE promotional website went live.

As for some of the other issues raised, chiefly Jenkins' age and UNSC foot-dragging on fielding the BR55? I will only say that some marines have spent a very long time in cryo-sleep and that putting an entirely new weapon into service during a war -- especially a war that spans multiple star systems -- is no small order.

That being said, I'm constantly impressed by how close attention you all pay to the details. Don't ever stop keeping us honest! And we'll do our best to keep you reliably entertained

- Joseph

[Batman]

The difference between a 30MW laser shooting at a 60MW shield and a bullet shooting at armour is that the armour doesnt have a constant power output; it dents. The shield can take 60MJ every second, the armour can take a set amount of force. So shooting at the armour continually will dent and destroy it.

Here's a .45 UMP and an infinte amount of bullets. Get back to me when you've worked your way through an Iowa's armour belt.

Spartan armor is equal to that of a battleship now?

Not from what I can tell. My point was that no, shooting at armour continually will NOT inevitably 'dent' and destroy it. fajner1 seems to be under the impression that armour can always be worn down no matter how little your firepower if you keep at it long enough, which simply isn't true. This was not supposed to refer to the SPARTAN armour specifically, which I think by now has pretty well been established as not being invulnerable to in-universe 7.62 rounds. All I was trying to get across was that it is decidedly possible for armour to be invulnerable to them.

Also, it's infinite, with an i between the n and the t; not infinte.

Even the World's Greatest Detective makes typos at times.
And while you were absolutely entitled to that dig, the canon/cannon thing just irritates me because it's so common.