Decline of the space opera genre

[Srelex]

Because the thing's you've cited usually last a few minutes, and are still quite pricey for individuals.

[Shroom Man 777]

Professional special effects people have salaries while hobbyists don't? Professional special effects people have to make professional special effects for a number of episodes in a season within a given time frame, while hobbyists can take months/years assing around their own projects at a leisurely pace without deadlines? They have to make a great many number of episodes, each being feature length, while hobbyists just do ten minute-long Jedi in the woods shit? Professional whatevers have to make money to offset costs, while hobbyists don't because they're cool with wasting money on hobbys that aren't profitable?

[Sarevok]

I hope Kanastrous chimes in with his professional opinion. I am very curious about costs of special effects before modern CGI and today.

[Shroom Man 777]

Good point. He'd be the first person to go to in issues like this.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

Hobbyists goofing around the internet have produced great lightsaber fight scenes, space battle sequences, master chief running around.... etc. This is not 80s anymore. Anyone with a computer and dedication can create some amazing scenes that took armies of people people in past.

Why is it still so expensive to create special effects for scifi tv show ?

At what resolution are these hobbyist effects produced at? How much of their cheapness is hidden by the fact that video streamed over the internet is highly compressed using very lossy compression techniques? What is the throughput of an internet hobbyist doing this on his spare time? Can a hobbyist be expected to perform within the constraints of a regular production schedule, while meeting the demands of a show's crew and staff?

I don't pretend to be an expert, but television shows are typically shot on either 16mm or 35mm film. 35 mm film resolves up to 6000 lines. 16 mm film does half that. Film is scanned at 1080 or 2000 lines just to be released on 480 line DVD. With the advent of HDTV, TV shows are now broadcast at 720 or even a full 1080 lines. Even basic digital cinema is filmed at 1920x1080 (1080 lines, 16:9 format) resolution. Compare this to the typical Youtube video at 240, 360, or 480 lines of vertical resolution.

That means the professional effects house has to produce effects at at least 7x the resolution the hobbyist can get away with. On a much tighter schedule. The professional effects house may also do this for many shows. This adds up to potentially hours of effects footage generated per week. The amateur, on the other hand, can afford to use cheap equipment and take half a year to produce a five minute clip. It makes him no money, and he'll be lucky to have an audience of 1000.

[Marcus Aurelius]

I don't pretend to be an expert, but television shows are typically shot on either 16mm or 35mm film. 35 mm film resolves up to 6000 lines. 16 mm film does half that. Film is scanned at 1080 or 2000 lines just to be released on 480 line DVD. With the advent of HDTV, TV shows are now broadcast at 720 or even a full 1080 lines. Even basic digital cinema is filmed at 1920x1080 (1080 lines, 16:9 format) resolution. Compare this to the typical Youtube video at 240, 360, or 480 lines of vertical resolution.

Technically you don't have to scan film at 2k for DVD releases, but good quality releases usually are, especially since there are now telecine systems that can do 2k. However, I have seen DVDs made from old analog formats which probably did not have even 480 lines, let alone 576 lines for PAL DVDs. (For example Betacam SP could do only 340 lines and was common in TV broadcasting for years. It is much cheaper to look for an old film transfer than to have the film rescanned. Quite a few early DVDs were done from film transfers originally intended for VHS releases and for that purpose something like Betacam SP was plenty.)

That means the professional effects house has to produce effects at at least 7x the resolution the hobbyist can get away with. On a much tighter schedule. The professional effects house may also do this for many shows. This adds up to potentially hours of effects footage generated per week. The amateur, on the other hand, can afford to use cheap equipment and take half a year to produce a five minute clip. It makes him no money, and he'll be lucky to have an audience of 1000.

A good example of amateur work would be Star Wreck: In the Pirkinning. The SFX, as far as I know, were rendered at PAL DVD resolution (576 lines) and it took them seven years to make it. To be fair though, some early scenes were rendered more than once since they looked obsolete only five years later, and some of that time went for learning other basics of film-making, even if they did have some experience at the start.

[andrewgpaul]

I wonder if it would be possible to make a zero budget SciFi that was actually solid. A web series or something. There's no shortage of one or two man operations that involve a dude talking into a camera with the occasional (awful) special effects.

Red Dwarf was fairly successful with crap effects, it was a comedy however.

Blake's Seven and Doctor Who managed for years with no money, and they were reasonably serious SF dramas. There was also Day of the Triffids, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, Survivors and The Last Train. I'm fairly sure they were popular despite the effects, but I'm not sure if that's because British audiences were simply used to cheap-looking telly of if the writing was just that good.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Blake's Seven and Doctor Who managed for years with no money, and they were reasonably serious SF dramas. There was also Day of the Triffids, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, Survivors and The Last Train. I'm fairly sure they were popular despite the effects, but I'm not sure if that's because British audiences were simply used to cheap-looking telly of if the writing was just that good.

Don't forget Sapphire & Steel, which was ultimately scifi as well despite having a ghost story or fantasy feeling to it. It was also made with a very small budget. However, what most of these small budget British scifi dramas had in common was that they were not space opera in the traditional meaning of the word. Blake's Seven is of course an obvious exception.

[Darth Hoth]

I think it comes down to what your priorities are. Most people here are logically minded, so the huge plot holes in nuTrek that are big enough for a General Systems Vehicle to fly through are more bothersome to them than the fact that the plot of Avatar is basically a sugar-coated remake of A Man Called Horse (not Pocahontas, only ignorant people suggest that) which, unlike the original, idealizes the natives, adds a little bit of kindergarten level ecological message and puts a huge battle to the end of the movie in order to placate friends of action.

I would say that at the least, the plot has more affinities to Pocahontas, even if it also incorporates a motif of assimilation into the tribe. It also steals visually from the latter film more directly (magical flowers floating around the protagonist's head, &c.).

A younger cousin of mine who saw the film aptly described it as "Pocahontas adapted for Captain Planet".

(And yes, I know that this is terribly off-topic )

[espatier]

Good sci-fi has a tendency to get canceled, or have executives try to kill it repeatedly.

Babylon 5 had repeated attempts to kill it, almost didn't get a fifth season, and jumped networks to stay on the air.

Farscape has a similar story.

Earth 2 got killed halfway through its first season and didn't even get to air every episode that had been filmed. That story had a lot of potential (and a lot of WTF.).

Firefly? They were dead set on killing it before it even aired. Why?

The original Star Trek? Got canceled. Enterprise? Kept airing as long as it sucked, then when they finally started cranking out decent material and its upcoming fifth season seemed promising, they kill it.

It seems like, despite huge fanbases, sci-fi shows are always first on the chopping block when it comes to canceling shows. Even the one network supposedly dedicated exclusively to sci-fi (now with a dumb name), all they want to air now is absolute crap.

What about SAAB? (Space Above & Beyond) and Caprica... they were killed quickly as well. It's all out everyone wanting to be a cop, forensic specialist and catching the bad guys. But don't forget the crap reality television dating shows (R.J, Wild stallions and Bret Micheal sex tour bus) or the reality television cooking, survivor or another shot at lust (love) with Telia.

[someone_else]

Well, I'm not particularly bothered by the decline of space operas. The vast majority of them was just another random setting we had already with an IN SPAAAAAAACE!!! at the end.

My personal opinion (worth what you payed ) is that such spacey stuff was riding the wave of pubblic interest for spacey stuff created and kept high (by US propaganda) during the space race.

Now that being IN SPAAAAAACE!!!! will no more add something to it, "stars" will be removed from the title and we will still enjoy the same usual sword duels without lightsabers, the same old gunfights at 12:00 without energy pistols, and the same car chases without flying cars.

Personally (again) I'd prefer if space operas disappear entirely, and maybe that some kind of hard-ish SF takes their place. A show that actually doesn't rape the most simple notions of "space" is to allow the common (read "incredibly dense") man to grasp a little of what is actually going on there. Something that doesn't rely on space fighters, gravity plates, energy shields, and glowy-buzzy weapons would be a good start.

Yes, it is not going to happen. Hard-ish SF requires higher costs in SFX, and writers that know a little of what space is (which means they are actual writers and not the average hollywood copy-pasters, requiring a better pay).
It also tends to cut out much more people than space operas, since they will see something that is markedly different from their life.
The fact that will teach something will probably be overlooked, since when teaching stuff is profitable?

the plot of Avatar is basically a sugar-coated remake of A Man Called Horse

Project 880, what they say was the original plot before it became senseless glowy movement with inarticulate sound, wasn't that bad. Still far from a good book-quality story, but rather good as a movie plot. This seems the complete original plot, although I only found it recently and never read it.

[Zaune]

The Last Train didn't have any SFX to speak of, if I remember rightly; it was a near-future setting rather than spaceships and lasers etc.
And I reckon Blake's 7 had a bit too much GRIMDARK to really count as space opera; the last season in particular had a lot of fairly overt cyberpunk themes, albeit in a manner more reminiscent of The Tomorrow People than William Gibson.

[Metahive]

Huh? Nero's motivations made perfect sense to me. He wanted revenge for the death of his world and his family at the hands of the Federation. So, first he blows up Vulcan, and then he goes off to blow up Earth, since it's one of the most important planets in the Federation.

The Federation didn't have a hand in it. Spock's interstellar vacuum cleaner was just a mite to slow to save Romulus from the "supernova". If a firefighter fails to rescue your loved ones from a burning building, does that justify nuking his hometown?

[Zaune]

I haven't actually seen the film in question, but watching his home planet being reduced to a smouldering heap of rubble couldn't have been good for the balance of his mind.

[Metahive]

The people of Dresden, Hiroshima and many other cities saw that happening to their homes too, how many of them became genocidal jackasses?

[KlavoHunter]

The people of Dresden, Hiroshima and many other cities saw that happening to their homes too, how many of them became genocidal jackasses?

How many of them obtained the MEANS to fulfill those genocidal fantasies they may have harbored afterwards?

[Coyote]

I opine that part of the problem is --as has been pointed out a few posts up-- that a lot of the space opera stuff is just a standard plot "--In space". And if that is the case, then yeah, I can wait until "more better" plots and stories come.

That said, science fiction also began to change around the time of the "X-Files", when the concept of "secret wars" science fiction began to come back into vogue. TV shows like "The Invaders" were done in the 60's or 70's (I don't remember which and I'm too lazy to Google it ) and science fiction became more focused on concepts of bizarre and unnatural events occurring in secret right here in our existing societies. This also has the advantage from a TV exec's point of view in that it is cheaper to produce and more psychologically accessible to viewers who are unable to make the leap into "--in spaaaace!". Chasing Bigfoot or interviewing alien abductees, secretly, isn't as "crazy/stupid/no way" as starships and blasters, which may be seen as "kid stuff" for nerdy pre-adolescent boys.

As for the grimdark aspects of shows like Battlestar Galactica, I think that was a counter-reaction to the old series's unnatural and bizarrely bouyant mood that was counter-intuitive to the premise of the show. In the 1980's, campy shows were popular and everything had to have a happy ending, where the camera might freeze-frame on the cast laughing at something as the credits start. Old-school Galactica was cheery and lighthearted, within hours after having their entire civilization --billions of people and centuries of labor-- razed into nonexistance by a race of genocidal machines. It was just... unsettling, to me, at least and the new show may have laid on some of the psychosis a bit too thick to counterbalance. But the grimdark was, I think, justifiable in that context due to the genocide... I do agree that when it worked for nBSG, everyone else tried to jump on that bandwagon as well regardless of whether or not it really "fit". I liked Stargate Universe, but have to admit the grimdark-ness was something of a deviation from established Stargate protocol, and had a manufactured air to it.

"Space: Above and Beyond" was gritty and realistic without (IMO) being overly Grimdark, because even though there was frustration and a vicious war for survival, there wasn't that sense of "woe is me; woe is us" helplessness that had you asking why these people don't just drink some damn bleach and be done with it.

But good science-fiction, especially good space-opera (again, my take on the issue) is a long arc of story and plot and character-building (especially character-building), which means you have to tune in each week or be lost. It also does not do well in syndication, where a network would have to buy the whole series instead of just showing the cream of the crop/favorite episodes of situational shows and sitcoms. And, to be honest, the American TV public is fickle and most of them aren't looking for challenging fiction; they want to turn their brains off in the evening and numb themselves with pap like American Idol and Dancing With the Stars so they have something superficial to discuss at work the next day without having to think about anything truly challenging.

But in the end, it is probably just a cyclic trend; and few space stories actually need to be in space. Right now cop shows and "reality" shows dominate, but there is some backlash building against "reality" shows and so that will probably run its course after awhile; likewise the cop shows are probably approaching critical mass as well since I think they are digging their own graves by having so many of them be the same thing over and over again (CSI: Salt Lake City! CSI: Sheboygan! CSI: West Dogpatch!). Some of them, like "Cold Case" are dabbling in fantasy-ish elements, with looks into the past and ghostly presences finally at rest at the end.

It'll be back, eventually.

[Metahive]

The people of Dresden, Hiroshima and many other cities saw that happening to their homes too, how many of them became genocidal jackasses?

How many of them obtained the MEANS to fulfill those genocidal fantasies they may have harbored afterwards?

Good (if irrelevant) question, how many people from Dresden, Hiroshima etc. had their every day working equipment suddenly and inexplicably turn into a cruel looking weapon of mass destruction? Know of any japanese tanker crew whose tanker magically turned into Space Dimension Fortress Macross enabling them to eradicate the US?

God, I hate nuTrek.

[DrMckay]

I have a suggestion for a good space opera that could be funded and possibly be made profitable while pulling in a massive audience:

Lucasfilm makes a Live Action Star Wars X-Wing Television series.

They have the books already, and most can be easily adapted into a TV script. Lucasfilm has money to burn as well as merchandising rights for a ton of stuff. Imagine the new toys or collectibles. Lucasfilm also has an in-house effects team, and the cost per episode would be negligible

-The show is also made for a slightly more adult audience, and is action space battle oriented, with wonderful villains in the form of Ysanne Isard, Krennel, and Large Ham Warlord Zinsj.

-The characters are lovely, and Wedge in particular is an Ensemble Darkhorse who deserves his own show (It would be sort of like making a show about the Excelsior with George Takei)

-No Jedi. Lots of fans are sick of whiny Jedi angst and many of the old ones dislike the prequels for many reasons. This would be a return to the much loved Classic Star Wars X-wing vs Tie era, and would give a rebirth to the franchise if cast and written well.

-New Worlds: Talesa, Thyferra, Folor, Adumar, Corellia, etc have never been seen, and the cast occasionally returns to Corsucant and Tatooine.

-The Characters. Aaron Allston is simultaneously the funniest and most tragic SW writer around, and the characters seen on the screen would be fantastic. I see the tone as a combination between SG-1 with RDA, and Battlestar Season 1 (High stakes, good writing, and occasional humor.)

-The Window: As mentioned by most people on the board, there is currently a dearth of good space opera out there. this could be produced fairly quickly (The books are already written) and well, and be a show with good characters, story, battles and villains with a HUGE built-in fanbase.

-The problem: I'm not sure who the intellectual property of the books finally devolves to, or if Lucas could even produce a story with them, or if he would even be interested in producing something that didn't involve Jedi and emotionless battle droids and dumb villains. Also, i wouldn't know how or where to suggest it to any powers involved and be taken seriously.

-Final Assessment: Something like this could really rock if done well, and I would consider selling my soul to see Face and Phannan and the Starfighters of Adumar arc on the big screen.

What do you guys think? Could this be possible in the Space Opera vacuum?

[Stofsk]

Uh Lucas is already planning on making a live action Star Wars TV series, although it appears to have stalled in development. But I'd rather see something new than 'live action adaptation of the x-wing books'.

Don't get me wrong dude, I wish they'd made a Star Trek: Excelsior with George Takei and Grace Lee Whitney after TNG died but we got Voyager instead. Back in the mid-to-late-90's you could have pulled it off, I bet Dennis Lawson would have jumped at the chance too, because that was when the Star Wars EU was making a big splash and people began to realise how much they wanted more Star Wars. Now, the most I can muster is a giant 'MEH' to things like the Clone Wars cartoon and the live action post-RotS pre-SW TV series which probably won't ever get made because Lucas is going about it in an ass-backwards way.

[Gunhead]

I've by now totally given up on the notion there being any watchable scifi series in the near future.
I'll freely admit my taste in scifi is extremely narrow and the last series I watched from start to finish was B5. I've watched most major shows in a total on/off fashion and generally speaking my opinion on most of them go from shit to meh. Then there are few anime series I've watched which I think don't really apply here since so few of them have ever aired outside japan, not that they fare any better on my give-a-shit meter. Exception being Legend of the Galactic heroes, which in terms of filmed scifi I consider to be the greatest thing... since ever, but some of you knew this already.

Speaking of which, if someone was to make a series that is thematically similar, I'd watch it. As to the decline to the space opera genre, here's my two cents, and I'm sure I'm not alone here.

Magic. No, for the love of everything just fucking no. I was once a naive young lad who thought this was ok, well not fucking anymore. Call it psionics, force, mind meld, whatever, I call it shit. My brain comes to screeching halt every time scifi and magic are mentioned in the same sentence. I've yet to see a scifi series that somehow benefits from having magic in it and I seriously doubt this will ever happen.
This as such is not maybe a reason why scifi is on the decline, but having magic is like giving the writers a back door to pull shit out of their asses and bad writing is a huge reason why scifi is on the decline.

-Gunhead

[TOSDOC]

Maybe what we need is reality Sci-Fi.

House of Mogh: A dozen Klingons from different houses are forced to live together under the same roof. The cast keeps getting into knife fights over who's turn it is to do the dishes with honor.

Or how about NCIS in SPAAAAACE! That crime just got a bit harder to solve when the victim's acid-for-blood just melted through the floor, and you can't even keep it in your sample container without destroying your forensic kit.

Dancing Among the Stars--Jennifer Grey doesn't stand a chance against the new Octopoid couple's dance moves tonight! (the tap-dancing Data and Dr. Crusher guest star!)

I wonder if it would be possible to make a zero budget SciFi that was actually solid. A web series or something. There's no shortage of one or two man operations that involve a dude talking into a camera with the occasional (awful) special effects.

I think MST3K was well-done in this regard--most of it's original set pieces were done on the cheap, and it shows, but it's no less entertaining. The show most shines at the least expensive portion, which is where the writing comes into play. 3 guys watching a movie that has already been filmed, just to make fun of it. I wonder how much each episode cost.

By the way, I don't think Nero was insane. That would have meant all of his crew were too, or I would hope one of them would have realized he was going to far. 25 year wait? COME ON! I would have been off that ship and home!!!

[Connor MacLeod]

It may be declining as a visual medium but that may or may not exist depending on hwere profits lie. Like any genre, money and what will draw money is what determines "popularity" more often than not, and its not easy to predict (who predicted Harry Potter or Twilight, after all?). It doesnt seem likely (at least for the foreseeable future) because there is no real demand for it and as others have pointed out, sci fi is costly compared to other shows.

One likely future possibility is the "re-branding/rebooting" crap that has become so popular. Companies nowadays do not seem to want to let potentially successful or long-running "brands" die out, so they may bring them back periodically in a "new" wrapping (the bits inq uotes are meant to be said in a sarcastic manner). Or some "re-discovered" old cult classic like Tron. If it becomes a hit, you can expect to see more of it (only made more craptacular in the rather narrow and unimagnative "re-branding" motif.) I expect if Trek movies continue popularity you might see the TV show resurrected again.

Yeah, honestly one of the problems I have with sci fi as a genre is that a lot of pop SF feels somewhat samey to me, with the same themes and tropes being repeated over and over. Personally I'd kind of like it if we saw a decline in popularity of the usual formula with fresher and more experimental and original stuff picking up the slack.

Of course that's probably just my personal wish-fulfillment fantasy and unlikely to actually happen.

This is gonna sound harsh, but I think it is wish fufillment. Part of the problem with "modern" sci fi is its popularity. The way companies adn businesses operate with a profit motive first and everything else second, quality is at best an accidental occurance. Were the move to "harder" sci fi to actually become more maintstream (and it could) I heartily anticipate it will get fucked up simply because studio execs and artists and all those others simply won't give a flying fuck about science or consistency (any more than the bulk of the fans will.) I'd expect they'd just go through the motions of copying Avatar or nBSG or something equally silly, without really understanding (or caring) about it. I mean, if it superficially looks the same pepople will probably watch it.

That's partly what the complaints about "Pop" or "soft" sci fi stem from, the "mainstream" problem creating repetition/copycatting. But that happens in any genre, so the "hard" stuff will be just as vulnerable.

If you really care about sci fi, you should hope to hell that it stays as obscure as posisble, to minimize posisiblities of fucking up.

[Stark]

Even stealing the trappings of actual cheap, high ratings shows will tend to be more expensive and limit the audience from just making an actual cheap, high ratings show.

[Junghalli]

Were the move to "harder" sci fi to actually become more maintstream (and it could) I heartily anticipate it will get fucked up simply because studio execs and artists and all those others simply won't give a flying fuck about science or consistency (any more than the bulk of the fans will.) I'd expect they'd just go through the motions of copying Avatar or nBSG or something equally silly, without really understanding (or caring) about it.

Minor clarification: I wasn't thinking of it making a turn towards harder SF, just making a turn toward being more experimental - exploring fresh ideas instead of just doing the same basic formulae over and over again. Could be hard or soft.

I think you're basically right though.