The Worst Deaths for Ships in Sci-Fi

[Stofsk]

His point is that that is why it's lame: Sheridan could have gotten Draal to superlaser the Agrippa and Roanoke and those two escort ships. The Churchill didn't need to die.

Yes Sheridan said he wanted to keep Draal out of it but like many things JMS writes, it doesn't hold up to analysis. He uses Draal to do his holographic message to tell everyone on the station about their impending doom, but then decides not to use Draal to help them against that doom? It makes no sense.

EarthForce (and uh everyone else in known space that's in a position of authority) knows about the Great Machine as a result of what happened in 'A Voice in the Wilderness'. There were heaps of witnesses to when Draal used the Great Machine's weapons against that alien cruiser and destroyed it in two seconds. So they already know what it's capable of, but the kicker is Draal actually told everyone that the Great Machine and by extension Epsilon 3 was a) off limits to any single empire in the galaxy and b) that he placed any decision making on whether to utilise the Great Machine up to the Babylon 5 advisory council. All of that stuff would have been written into any report Sinclair, Ivanova, and who knows how many other officers and secret agents and diplomatic staff to various other agencies and governments.

Meaning that when Sheridan said 'I want to keep a Draal a secret' or words to that effect, it literally makes no sense given what passed before in the continuity. The problem is JMS wrote himself into a corner with the Great Machine anyway. The battle for babylon 5 would have been over in two seconds had Sheridan asked Draal to help out. Unfortunately you wouldn't have much of a dramatic battle in those circumstances.

You might be able to explain it as the Great Machine might not have the range in its defensive weapons to hit Clark's forces as far out as they were in orbit. That makes sense, as the weapons Draal has seem to be optimised to prevent anyone from landing on the planet. Another possibility is that Clark's ships came in from a certain angle that put B5 in-between their ships and Epsilon 3. They could have also been jamming communications. Unfortunately, JMS explicitly wrote what he wrote, and Sheridan said he didn't want to use Draal because he wanted to keep him a secret (wasn't the actual line something like 'He's our ace in the hole'?).

[Metahive]

What he wanted to keep a secret was their alliance with Draal. If Delenn hadn't shown up to deliver the show's most bad ass line and scare the second wave off, who knows, maybe he would have asked Draal to help out. Can't fault them for not wishing to blow their entire wad when they think there's a chance they can do without. There's also the possibility of the Shadows assaulting Babylon 5 earlier than they did if they knew about this, considering the intelligence gathering possibilities of the machine alone.

[Themightytom]

ALL of those Valkyrie class battlestars in BSG: The Plan.
Apparently the "Main fight shaping up near Picon" was in fact just a lengthy demolition. Bonus fail for the communications "Should we fore?" "No hold" "Frak you I'm going to start firi..." Splat.

Also the squadron of fighters in the miniseries that got to sit there and watch missiles fly at them.

Um....what were they supposed to do? They were nailed by the Cylon uber-hax. Presumably the fight that occurred over Picon (I remember the dialogue as Virgon) was with ships partially, or maybe totally unaffected by the virus.

Well the fighters were screwed because they were waaaaaaay too far from the Galactica, which while unarmed, was also immune to the hack, carried viable fighters, or at the very least could have offered the possibility of escape. Maybe next time we send the recon raptor in first? So it Can Escape if It has to and report back?

The battlestars... well... damn... they have hundreds of UFOs popping into their face carrying nukes, and they're waiting for orders? You KNOW the cylons were lining up so they could scan them all at once. if they had just opened fire the Cylons would have had to take them out ad hoc and the battle would have lasted longer, possibly long enough to figure out they were being hacked.

The Enterprise 1701, because Kirk could have killed Christopher Loyd's crew a dozen other ways, increasing the gravity, setting the transporter beam on wide beam dispersion when they beamed in, overloading a phaser on the bridge, which would have forced them to use auxiliary controls but whatever, even if it was off drifting aimlessly out of orbit. away Kirk still could have taken the same steps to rescue Spock.

And what do you think Kruge would have done if he found out his boarding party was turned into transporter mush, blown up, etc? He'd have said "fuck it" and blown 1701 to hell and back, killing Kirk and company. Enterprise was a dead stick, they needed to kill as much of Kruge's crew as possible and get off it.

[/quote]

Kruge wouldn't have done shit. The unshielded E-A was taking torpedo hits for like twenty minutes and still didn't go down, I doubt whatever "Emergency d--" meant, Kruge probably couldn't have even pulled that off with only one other guy on his ship, there's no one to load his torpedoes for example

Admittedly the Enterprise A was crewed, and probably defecting damage control, but unless they left like.. every door open, whatever kruge had left wasn't going to one shot it.

[Themightytom]

What he wanted to keep a secret was their alliance with Draal. If Delenn hadn't shown up to deliver the show's most bad ass line and scare the second wave off, who knows, maybe he would have asked Draal to help out. Can't fault them for not wishing to blow their entire wad when they think there's a chance they can do without. There's also the possibility of the Shadows assaulting Babylon 5 earlier than they did if they knew about this, considering the intelligence gathering possibilities of the machine alone.

So the Churchhill died so that Sheridan could hide his alliance with the Great machine, but reveal his alliance with the people who nearly wiped out humanity?

Hoshi didn't exactly "Decline" to get off the ship, it blew up while she was being told to evacuate, and the Churchhill obviously didn't sail into the system on fire, it kind of got that way during the pointless battle Sheridan had them fight.

Whats more, Sheridan was using defensive fire at the onset of the battle, instead of attacking the ships. He forced the two on two situation entirely, on the assumption that "Well obviously you schmucks are fucked, but maybe they'll think twice about attacking us.

Then he replenished his fighter losses from the survivors just to twist the knife a little further

[Metahive]

Star Trek III still features the E-Nil. The E-A is its replacement at the end of the next movie.

Admittedly the Enterprise A was crewed, and probably defecting damage control, but unless they left like.. every door open, whatever kruge had left wasn't going to one shot it.

Umm, the E-Nil wasn't crewed and its automatisation computer was busted by Kruge's lucky shot leaving them sitting ducks, that was kinda' the point why they decided to scuttle the ship with the klingon crewmen on it.

So the Churchhill died so that Sheridan could hide his alliance with the Great machine, but reveal his alliance with the people who nearly wiped out humanity?

I ask again, have you watched the episode lately? That the Minbari would come to their aid was a surprising developement for the staff on Babylon 5! And allying with them rather than getting shot for sedition by Clarke's fascist regime, well, can't fault them for that. I also repeat, who knows what he would have done had Delenn not come together with a fleet of Sharlins!

Hoshi didn't exactly "Decline" to get off the ship, it blew up while she was being told to evacuate, and the Churchhill obviously didn't sail into the system on fire, it kind of got that way during the pointless battle Sheridan had them fight.

She didn't blew up then, she still managed to ram and destroy the Roanoke. I say again that revealing their alliance with Draal would have drawn quite a lot of unwanted attention. The Minbari have a justified reason to defend Babylon 5, seeing as they were largely supporting the project. A supposedly neutral alien spy machine has not.

Whats more, Sheridan was using defensive fire at the onset of the battle, instead of attacking the ships. He forced the two on two situation entirely, on the assumption that "Well obviously you schmucks are fucked, but maybe they'll think twice about attacking us.

Or the ships were simply out of range then.

Then he replenished his fighter losses from the survivors just to twist the knife a little further

Definitely, they should all have sacrificed themselves and their machines on Sandra Hiroshi's funeral pyre instead. TO THE GATES OF STO'VO'KOR!

[Stofsk]

What he wanted to keep a secret was their alliance with Draal. If Delenn hadn't shown up to deliver the show's most bad ass line and scare the second wave off, who knows, maybe he would have asked Draal to help out. Can't fault them for not wishing to blow their entire wad when they think there's a chance they can do without. There's also the possibility of the Shadows assaulting Babylon 5 earlier than they did if they knew about this, considering the intelligence gathering possibilities of the machine alone.

Secret alliances are great and all but when you're dealing with a pretty overt grab for power by Clark who's sending more ships than you have against you, maybe being secretive isn't the best priority than simple survival and winning a fight with no losses. Hell maybe even use the threat of an alliance with Draal in order to get Clark's ships to retreat. Sheridan tried talking them down first anyway.

That said, I agree that if not for Delenn, Sheridan may well have had Draal on speed-dial. It's just that at that point, they had lost the Churchill, quite a few Furies, and the station had taken heavy damage itself. That's a lot of people who died and a lot of equipment that's been blown up before you consider pressing the 'I win' button. I'd rather conjecture that maybe Draal's weaponry has limits which might have meant he couldn't have been too useful to the fight.

Also I doubt the Shadows would have gone on the offensive sooner had Sheridan brought Draal into the fight. After all the shadow battlecrabs came out of hyperspace right on top of B5 in 'Z'ha'dum' and jammed their transmissions so that they couldn't contact Draal. That struck me as the Shadows were aware of the Great Machine and how to counter it should they ever move against the station. (By being so close to the station Draal would risk friendly fire if he tried shooting at them, and by jamming B5 the Shadows knew that they couldn't radio Draal for help)

[Metahive]

Just consider, if the formely neutral spy machine on Epsilon 3 openly allies with Babylon 5, what's bound to happen? Babylon 5 becomes a top-priority target for Earth right then and there because, while the machine has decent firepower, I doubt it by itself can hold off a determined EA hellbent on taking control or destroying it rather than letting it support a rag-tag bunch of dissidents. Would you leave the ultimate spying tool in the hands of your enemy? Not to speak of all the ambitious aliens that might show up to do the same as well up to including the Centauri and maybe even the Shadows. Draal actually has a lot to lose should he drop the pretense of neutrality. I find this to be justification enough to keep him in reserve until all other venues have been exhausted.
A potential war with the Minbari however is a rather good deterrent and they even have a plausible justification to do so, drawing less suspicion.

[Stofsk]

They don't know it can be used as a spy machine. Nobody knows that except for Draal and the army of light. What everyone knows of the Great Machines capabilities was what was observed during the climax of 'A Voice in the Wilderness part two'. Draal made the point of telling everyone in orbit of Epsilon 3 that the defences were fully operational now that he was in charge, and then proceeded to destroy the alien battlecruiser which was giving B5 and the Hyperion so much trouble.

The Great Machine has actually more value in some of the esoteric capabilities - like its spying ability - but there are limits to even that. Ivanova nearly lost her mind when the Shadows became aware of her, and IIRC it was only because of her latent telepathy that gave her the push to break 'eye contact' or whatever (IIRC Draal commented about how she was unusually strong-willed or something, I can't remember the episode that well since it's been a few years) So whoever uses it to spy on the Shadows runs the risk of becoming a vegetable. As for spying on other people, well that's how they got the proof that Clark murdered Santiago, but ironically nobody figured out that was thanks to Draal. As far as most of the rest of the galaxy is concerned, the Great Machine's true capabilities are deep below a layer of certain death should anyone be stupid enough to try to land on the planet.

Honestly I'm just sceptical that the Great Machine is the 'instawin' device many fans take it for. But I just don't agree with what Sheridan said to Ivanova in the episode. I'd be happier if Sheridan had said something along the lines of Draal's weapons are short ranged or wouldn't help unless Clark's ships got too close to the planet, and because everyone saw what happened last time, it's a good bet that they won't give Draal the chance.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Wasn't the Machine's primary function as some sort of time gateway? If I recall correctly, they got to Babylon 4 by having Draal open a rift and send them through time.

[Metahive]

Even if they didn't know the specific capabilities of the machine, the cache of highly advanced technology it represents alone would be enough of a draw, especially after Draal openly breaks his vow of neutrality and joins forces with a faction, making him a legitimate target.

[...]and then proceeded to destroy the alien battlecruiser which was giving B5 and the Hyperion so much trouble.

Pre-combat refit Bab 5 and an obsolete EA cruiser. Not really great yardsticks.

Wasn't the Machine's primary function as some sort of time gateway? If I recall correctly, they got to Babylon 4 by having Draal open a rift and send them through time.

It's primarily an observatory that can look throughout time and space and a repository for the knowledge acquired thus.

[Stofsk]

Even if they didn't know the specific capabilities of the machine, the cache of highly advanced technology it represents alone would be enough of a draw, especially after Draal openly breaks his vow of neutrality and joins forces with a faction, making him a legitimate target.

How are they going to land to make use of that cache of high tech goodies? Attempting to do so is certain death. That's also why nobody ever dared to land on the planet again after that episode without having explicit invitation from Draal.

[...]and then proceeded to destroy the alien battlecruiser which was giving B5 and the Hyperion so much trouble.

Pre-combat refit Bab 5 and an obsolete EA cruiser. Not really great yardsticks.

Doesn't matter. The superlaser effortlessly destroyed the ship in seconds, and the ship in question seemed to be slightly advanced of where EarthForce was at. The Hyperion was superceded by the Omega, but that doesn't mean the Hyperion was some kind of slim chicken or something. No matter, the defensive capabilities available to Draal and the Great Machine is way beyond anything that EarthForce has or can counter, nor anything the Narn or Centauri have, or any of the younger races for that matter, and it's about on par with the Minbari.

About the only people who could take Draal on presumably is the Shadows. The question is whether they would bother doing so. Its spying abilities have limits when it tries to spy on them. Having a deathray is good and all but only if you're close enough for it to hit. The Shadow battlecrabs have superior mobility (the Great Machine is after all, a stationary target). The question is whether they can make an attack on it without being destroyed. They also don't know what the Great Machine's true purpose is (I disagree with your assessment that it's primarily an observatory - the Great Machine is probably the single biggest factor for the army of light prevailing against the Shadows and that was because it acted as a time machine).

[Eternal_Freedom]

I think we've got a bit derailed here.

One other bad ship death I've remembered is the Pride of Higara of Homworld 2. She fights and builds and wins, and is then abandoned in a black hole cluster so they can have a better ship with a bigger gun

[Themightytom]

Star Trek III still features the E-Nil. The E-A is its replacement at the end of the next movie.

Admittedly the Enterprise A was crewed, and probably defecting damage control, but unless they left like.. every door open, whatever kruge had left wasn't going to one shot it.

Umm, the E-Nil wasn't crewed and its automatisation computer was busted by Kruge's lucky shot leaving them sitting ducks, that was kinda' the point why they decided to scuttle the ship with the klingon crewmen on it.

Ummmm I was comparing the two situations, and acknowledging the difference the crew would make on the E-A versus the absence of a crew with the E-meh.

So the Churchhill died so that Sheridan could hide his alliance with the Great machine, but reveal his alliance with the people who nearly wiped out humanity?

I ask again, have you watched the episode lately? That the Minbari would come to their aid was a surprising developement for the staff on Babylon 5! And allying with them rather than getting shot for sedition by Clarke's fascist regime, well, can't fault them for that. I also repeat, who knows what he would have done had Delenn not come together with a fleet of Sharlins!

So... are you arguing that because Sheridan didn't know it was going to happen, it didn't or were you arguing that because he didn't know, it was less pointless, in retrospect, that the Churchill died in retrospect.

I saw Severed Dreams Saturday, it's in my Zune.

Hoshi didn't exactly "Decline" to get off the ship, it blew up while she was being told to evacuate, and the Churchhill obviously didn't sail into the system on fire, it kind of got that way during the pointless battle Sheridan had them fight.

She didn't blew up then, she still managed to ram and destroy the Roanoke. I say again that revealing their alliance with Draal would have drawn quite a lot of unwanted attention.

How? Everyone knew the great machine was down there already, just because it wasn't blowing B-5's enemies out of space before doesn't change that fact, and it certainly doesn't change the fact that he's letting B5 sit there in the first place as opposed to killing it.

The Minbari have a justified reason to defend Babylon 5, seeing as they were largely supporting the project. A supposedly neutral alien spy machine has not.

They were defending it from EARTH... did you actually watch the rest of the series? That became a major point of contention. if an alien machine defended B-5 it could have just as easily been concluded that Sheridan figured out how to make it work, as opposed to being accused of being brainwashed by the Mimbari.

Whats more, Sheridan was using defensive fire at the onset of the battle, instead of attacking the ships. He forced the two on two situation entirely, on the assumption that "Well obviously you schmucks are fucked, but maybe they'll think twice about attacking us.

Or the ships were simply out of range then.

ooook lets just make that up now... the same way that Centauri battle cruiser was out of range? B5 handled them alone, why not two less advanced warships, with the aid of two ships of their own.

Then he replenished his fighter losses from the survivors just to twist the knife a little further

Definitely, they should all have sacrificed themselves and their machines on Sandra Hiroshi's funeral pyre instead. TO THE GATES OF STO'VO'KOR!

[/quote]

....Which brings me to a NEW submission. I submit the waves of klingons who got pummeled by DS9 when they suddenly got more than three torpedoes.

Back to the Churchill....Sure it was practical, after the Churchill was destroyed... but it adds to the ignominy of the destruction. not only did she die a pointless death but the guy who sent her can sleep easier with a few more starfuries out on patrol.

[Themightytom]

Wasn't the Machine's primary function as some sort of time gateway? If I recall correctly, they got to Babylon 4 by having Draal open a rift and send them through time.

That was it's primary contribution, but I'm not sure it was "designed" to function that way. If I remember correctly Zathras was running around trying to keep the place together while Zathras helped, while Zathras was talking to Sheridan. Admittedly Zathras wasn't the brightest bulb on the tree, butt he was brighter than Zathras almost certainly, and I think Zathras was probably smarter than them all. So with Zathras repairing the machine and Zathras repairing the machine..::fires grappling hook and hauls himself out.::

Sorry I got a little lost in there. It seemed like the machine was doing something bigger than normal during that episode whereas it seems to effortlessly spy across the galaxy and read minds.

[Skylon]

Kruge wouldn't have done shit. The unshielded E-A was taking torpedo hits for like twenty minutes and still didn't go down, I doubt whatever "Emergency d--" meant, Kruge probably couldn't have even pulled that off with only one other guy on his ship, there's no one to load his torpedoes for example

Admittedly the Enterprise A was crewed, and probably defecting damage control, but unless they left like.. every door open, whatever kruge had left wasn't going to one shot it.

1) Kruge could have just used the wing mounted disruptors.

2) I presume the "unshielded E-A" you are talking about was the battle in ST VI. The Ent-A was shielded in that battle, and the damage was still scorching the hull. When the shields did collapse one torpedo did this to the Ent-A's hull:

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2 ... breach.jpg

No, Kruge could have certainly finished the Ent-Nil. I always took that cut off "Emergency..." line to indicate they were expecting to get blown to shit by the Ent-Nil. When that didn't happen, Kruge halted that officer from doing whatever he was, and noted "Why haven't they finished us?" realizing something was up.

[TOSDOC]

No, Kruge could have certainly finished the Ent-Nil. I always took that cut off "Emergency..." line to indicate they were expecting to get blown to shit by the Ent-Nil. When that didn't happen, Kruge halted that officer from doing whatever he was, and noted "Why haven't they finished us?" realizing something was up.

I took that line to say "Ready to fire emergency tube", meaning they were down to their last torpedo.

Another shot would've finished Enterprise--I'm sure Sulu and Chekov could go down and fire torpedoes manually, but they still need to target Kruge with sensors--Scott knew they were done without repairing the automation center, they just didn't have the manpower to do anything but scuttle.

[Batman]

Back to the Churchill....Sure it was practical, after the Churchill was destroyed... but it adds to the ignominy of the destruction. not only did she die a pointless death but the guy who sent her can sleep easier with a few more starfuries out on patrol.

Yep, because he obviously planned for that from the start and taking on the stragglers from the Churchill was Sheridan's idea. I mean letting an Omega and a goodly portion of her Starfury complement more likely than not to get his hands on the sad remains of her aerospace wing makes so much more sense than instakilling the Roanoke via The Great Machine and keeping the Churchill and her entire complement.
For whatever reason, they didn't use The Great Machine. It was Major Ryan who suggested B5 keep the survivors as he simply didn't have to room for them. Have you watched the episode recently?

I like Stofsk's idea of the ships being out of range (or maybe Draal was busy offing all those Hyperions we never see again after the introductory shot of Cark's forces?) or on the other side of B5, because frankly, as the guy explained, the defensive/offensive capabilities of The Great Machine haven't been secret since the bloody thing was introduced and using it to carve up Clark's fleet with no losses on the B5 side wouldn't have given away anything about its other capabilities.

[Kyler]

The Executor is one of the worst in my book, so such an awesome and huge ship gets destroyed because a fighter hits the main bridge and some how the whole loses control and crashes into the Death Star.

[CaptHawkeye]

The Normandy's death in ME2 was pretty fucking pathetic. The ship that led the attack on Sov gets bitch slapped instantly all so the game could give you...THE EXACT SAME SHIP 10 minutes later.

[Themightytom]

Yep, because he obviously planned for that from the start and taking on the stragglers from the Churchill was Sheridan's idea. I mean letting an Omega and a goodly portion of her Starfury complement more likely than not to get his hands on the sad remains of her aerospace wing makes so much more sense than instakilling the Roanoke via The Great Machine and keeping the Churchill and her entire complement.
For whatever reason, they didn't use The Great Machine. It was Major Ryan who suggested B5 keep the survivors as he simply didn't have to room for them. Have you watched the episode recently?

[/quote]

What is with this persistent notion that the Churchhill's death could only be stupid if it were part of Sheridan's plan, rather than as foreseeable sideffect of having a bad plan. I was just pointing out that Sheridan's benefitting from getting the Churchill killed was just salt on the wound.
What's more... why did batman only show up only AFTER I used a grappling hook in a post

I know major Ryan suggested it, and as i psoted already iw atched the episode last week.

I like Stofsk's idea of the ships being out of range (or maybe Draal was busy offing all those Hyperions we never see again after the introductory shot of Cark's forces?) or on the other side of B5, because frankly, as the guy explained, the defensive/offensive capabilities of The Great Machine haven't been secret since the bloody thing was introduced and using it to carve up Clark's fleet with no losses on the B5 side wouldn't have given away anything about its other capabilities

I suppose in taht context the Churchill was heroically holding the line, but there wasn't any dialogue to suggest Draal was fighting any kind of battle at the same time, I always imagined the hyperions were guarding the jumpgate to prevent any escapees.

[Skylon]

I suppose in taht context the Churchill was heroically holding the line, but there wasn't any dialogue to suggest Draal was fighting any kind of battle at the same time, I always imagined the hyperions were guarding the jumpgate to prevent any escapees.

They aren't to be seen when the second wave of Earth ships come in (through the jump gate).

Back when this episode aired (and in the ancient days of usenet), JMS suggested the Hyperions were taken out off screen. We don't see the Churchill take the heavy damage it ends up with. Maybe it took out the two Hyperions and got trashed in the process?

But yeah, the odds are pretty much zero Draal did anything in the battle. I also think we're getting a little side-tracked about Draal. With the capabilities of the Great Machine known, I think Sheridan didn't want Clarke, the Shadows or anyone else to know he had an alliance with Draal, and could call on him if needed. That's a pretty good surprise to keep in your back pocket.

[Batman]

I suppose in taht context the Churchill was heroically holding the line, but there wasn't any dialogue to suggest Draal was fighting any kind of battle at the same time, I always imagined the hyperions were guarding the jumpgate to prevent any escapees.

They aren't to be seen when the second wave of Earth ships come in (through the jump gate).

Besides, the Omegas can leave any time they choose as they can form their own jump points, B5 itself isn't going anywhere, and so what if a Starfury or three make it out?

Back when this episode aired (and in the ancient days of usenet), JMS suggested the Hyperions were taken out off screen. We don't see the Churchill take the heavy damage it ends up with. Maybe it took out the two Hyperions and got trashed in the process?

Decidedly possible. While as per the opening of the episode a Hyperion doesn't seem to be near a match for an Omega, there were two of them, two EarthForce Omegas to chip in and a fuckton of Starfuries, which seem to be able to do at least superficial damage to capital ships.
It would handily explain the heavy damage to the Churchill and the disappearance of those Hyperions.

But yeah, the odds are pretty much zero Draal did anything in the battle.

Absolutely. I was just tossing that out as a kinda sorta maybe explanation for The Great Machine NOT being seen used in that battle.

[Darth Tedious]

Liberator from Blake's 7. Somewhat obscure, so read http://blakes7.wikia.com/wiki/Liberator if you're not familiar. I found it was pretty sad seeing such an awesome ship being more or less eaten by a cloud.

And the SSD Executor was pretty lame. There should have at least been more visible damage than just the bridge (we've seen ISD's fly on with destroyed bridges before). That said, I always found the crash into the Death Star surface pretty impressive as a kid.

[Alyrium Denryle]

She didn't blew up then, she still managed to ram and destroy the Roanoke. I say again that revealing their alliance with Draal would have drawn quite a lot of unwanted attention. The Minbari have a justified reason to defend Babylon 5, seeing as they were largely supporting the project. A supposedly neutral alien spy machine has not.

Major Ryan: “Get to the Lifepods!”

Hiroshi:”Its too late to get out, primary systems are hit, we have fire in all decks now. There's nothing left to do except...”

Major Ryan:”Hiroshi? HIROSHI!?”

*Kamikazi! Explosion!*

Or the ships were simply out of range then.

Or she was dealing with fighters. Even after the combat refit, B5 did not exactly get hull upgrades. Fighter grade weapons are a threat to her, to say nothing of fire from two Hyperions. She does not have the armored cowl of a warship, and her rotation systems are fairly sensitive. Heavy fire could cause them to go Z grav etc.

Secret alliances are great and all but when you're dealing with a pretty overt grab for power by Clark who's sending more ships than you have against you, maybe being secretive isn't the best priority than simple survival and winning a fight with no losses. Hell maybe even use the threat of an alliance with Draal in order to get Clark's ships to retreat. Sheridan tried talking them down first anyway.

He did not know about the escort hyperions when he got the intel. He made the decision based upon the information regarding the Omega destroyers. He had his station, and two Omegas against two Omegas. Then the hyperions show up too. We never see them, but all of the damage to Hiroshi's ship happens off screen. It stands to reason there was a MAD scenario with respect to those ships.

The Great Machine has actually more value in some of the esoteric capabilities - like its spying ability - but there are limits to even that. Ivanova nearly lost her mind when the Shadows became aware of her, and IIRC it was only because of her latent telepathy that gave her the push to break 'eye contact' or whatever (IIRC Draal commented about how she was unusually strong-willed or something, I can't remember the episode that well since it's been a few years)

That was not it, actually. Anyone could have broken that link from all accounts. Her telepathy however allowed her to stray from the path, and witness President Santiago's death and the circumstances surrounding it.

Doesn't matter. The superlaser effortlessly destroyed the ship in seconds, and the ship in question seemed to be slightly advanced of where EarthForce was at. The Hyperion was superceded by the Omega, but that doesn't mean the Hyperion was some kind of slim chicken or something. No matter, the defensive capabilities available to Draal and the Great Machine is way beyond anything that EarthForce has or can counter, nor anything the Narn or Centauri have, or any of the younger races for that matter, and it's about on par with the Minbari.

That instant destruction is something an Omega Destroyer probably could have done if it managed to get into a firing position with its lasers. The Hyperion really is a spring chicken compared to an Omega, one well placed shot from said Omega can as seen in Severed Dreams, rip one apart. The best placed shots from a Hyperion however do not do the same, though given time (and staying the hell away from the lasers), a hyperion can chew up an Omega. That is the fun part when a hull is exposed without shields.

Here, we are talking about a ship only marginally more powerful than a hyperion, given that the pre-retrofit B5 had trouble with raiders.

ooook lets just make that up now... the same way that Centauri battle cruiser was out of range? B5 handled them alone, why not two less advanced warships, with the aid of two ships of their own.

Numbnuts, they were out of range. Go watch it again, and you will note that the two groups of ships were reaching eachother's firing range, which was outside of the stations range. The station could not engage yet. Even with that said, B5 itself has limited firing arcs with her heavier weapons. Not only did she need them to be in range, but along those arcs. She also needed the fighters to disable the interceptors on said Omegas, or have them otherwise tied up, or significant portions of her weapons fire would not get through.

That said as well, B5 is a glass cannon. If she did not focus her weapons on defense, she would have been destroyed by fighters. Doing that, she almost was.

[2000AD]

The Normandy's death in ME2 was pretty fucking pathetic. The ship that led the attack on Sov gets bitch slapped instantly all so the game could give you...THE EXACT SAME SHIP 10 minutes later.

Well the Normandy 1 was never a front line ship, it was purposely built for stealth and recon, it was a scout ship. It got ambushed by a more powerful vessel against which it's stealth capabilties were nullified by more advanced detection capabilities, that it got bitchslapped shouldn't be a surprise.
Dramatically it also set up the villians as people not to feck around. Unlike most villans, when they identified they're main enemy they didn't mess around with complicated plots, they sent an overwhelming force and blasted them to hell.