A Veteran that is a Newb!

[Darth Yoshi]

Actually, it was Vision of the Future, book 2 of Hand of Thrawn.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Actually, it was Vision of the Future, book 2 of Hand of Thrawn.

And Spectre of the Past is book one. I got them confused.

[SCI-Fi_Freak]

Yeah how the hell did that argument get started? And yeah, I got the Aiing-Ti from Vision of the Future, Talon Karrde uses them to get to Yaga Minor in time to save Garm Bel Iblis' royal Corellian ass. The Aiing-Ti are just one little fact I knew would come in handy.

[Keevan_Colton]

Its would still make little difference...sheer firepower and the speed of HS mean that this is just an amusing extra to the landslide....a few pebbles if you will.

[Kerneth]

Going just Star Wars vs Star Trek is pretty silly. Everything in Star Wars vs everything in Star Trek? Star Trek wins because the Q Continuum just obliterates everything, as any Trekkie will tell you.

Including the Ang-tii Monks or Yuuzhan Vong in an analysis of why Star Wars would beat Star Trek is just opening up the opportunity for Trek to say "Fine, we have the Q Continuum on our side", given that the monks are extremely reclusive and have shown little or no interest in galactic affairs (aside from one trip outside their home system to smash a pirate force and dropping the Wild Karrde off to stop a war), and the Yuuzhan Vong would rather kill *everyone* except themselves than help non-Vong. Whenever a Trekkie brings up the Q, the Star Wars response is "Why would the Q help the Federation?", ergo, they can respond to the mention of the Ang-tii or the Vong with "Why would either of those groups help the Empire/New Republic/Galactic Federation of Free Alliances?"

[SCI-Fi_Freak]

Q Continuum? Why would you even bring that up? Its just ST cheepness, I'd like to see your Q take on a whole entire army of Jedi that have absorbed the Valley of the Jedi, a quote from Dark Forces: "With a snap of a finger Jerec could destroy an entire planet, with a wave of his hand he would be able to destroy entire star systems." The fact that The Force made everything means that it is more powerful than the Q because as we all know, The Q are not gods, they are a "highly developed" race. And besides Q and Jedi are normally taken out of debates. Unless you want to be cheap like that.

[Ghost Rider]

Please no godlike being because then it becomes(the combined energies of the Sith Lords merging into one primal Sith being who is nothing more than the embodiment of the Dark Side vs the Q)

no one disputes this because it becomes as unreasonable as the Sky Fairy vs the Cat of Doom(Ask Darth Utsanomiko about this silly thought)

[jegs2]

Yes, let's not bring up the Enigma Super Demigod Races of Doom. They've no play in real debate...

[Kerneth]

Sorry, but evidently the Ang-tii monks might as well be a Super Uber Demigod Race of Doom, given that it describes their capship beam weapons as being able to cut through a SW warships shields and hull with a single blast, they have a FTL drive that allows instantaneous transportation from one point to another (no way to know how far, but it must be pretty impressive given that they "teleported" to Bastion) and the ability to use the Force--and ANYONE can evidently learn how to do this, it's not innate ability--to teleport things from one area to another.

That may not be as much of an uber wankfest as the Q continuum, but it's pretty damn close in my book.

[SCI-Fi_Freak]

I don't call that supergod, its called TECHNOLOGY you only bring up the Continuum because clearly Star Trek is EASILY out matched in the technology area and are desperate for any way to beat us.

[Master of Ossus]

Out of curiosity, which sites are you a veteran of?

[Kerneth]

Look, I'm just saying that if pro-Star Wars debaters start bringing up super-advanced races like the Ang-tii monks in debates, then there's no reason that pro-Star Trek debaters can't bring up their own super-advanced races like the Q. The whole argument against using the Q in a pro-Trek debate is that there's no real evidence that the Q would help the Federation/Alpha Quadrant/whatever, the same way there's no real evidence that the Ang-tii monks or Vong would help the against the Federation (though the Vong may help indirectly by their willingness to wipe out EVERYBODY who uses technology regardless of what association they have).

[Master of Ossus]

Look, I'm just saying that if pro-Star Wars debaters start bringing up super-advanced races like the Ang-tii monks in debates, then there's no reason that pro-Star Trek debaters can't bring up their own super-advanced races like the Q. The whole argument against using the Q in a pro-Trek debate is that there's no real evidence that the Q would help the Federation/Alpha Quadrant/whatever, the same way there's no real evidence that the Ang-tii monks or Vong would help the against the Federation (though the Vong may help indirectly by their willingness to wipe out EVERYBODY who uses technology regardless of what association they have).

NTM that the Ang-ti abilities have never been observed in the manner some posters are claiming. They "like" to stay near a particular region of space, and are uninvolved in affairs outside that area--as they would be in a war between SW and ST.

[Kerneth]

By the way, I'm nowhere near delusional enough to think that Trek technology is a match for Star Wars. I enjoy both series, though I stopped watching Trek some time ago. I'm just mentioning that, in all fairness, one side can't claim assistance from a super-advanced group that has shown no interest in becoming involved with that particular civilization while claiming that the other side doesn't have the right to bring up their own super-race.

[Master of Ossus]

Hey guys, I just joined! I am a veteran debater and I am ready to kick some Trekkie ass! First of all I would like to present some points that you may have not talked about here.

Erm... hi.

The Aiing-Ti Monks, they have ships that do not run with hyperspace and are capable of travelling to anywhere in the Galaxy instantly. We can use this advantage to fairy around ship, making hit and run attacks easy and pain free. Not to mention reinforcements arriving instantly in battles.

They also don't get involved in affairs outside a very small area of space. They wouldn't do anything, unless one side or the other directly threatened them.

Yuuzhan Vong Biological Weapons. The Yuuzhan Vong biological weapons make wiping out entire planets easily. In Vector Prime the Yuuzhan Vong used a biological agent capable of killing anything that breaths air, killing an entire planet worth of plants, animals and humans(a very small amount of humans, it was just a scientific outpost). Not to mention swarm bugs, they are capable of enveloping an entire planet in a matter of hours, completely devouring anything living on a planet. This weapon was used on Ithor, completely killing all the foliage and anything on the planet.

Who cares? Imperial bio-weapons are already better at some tasks. They are generally designed to kill a specific species or group of species, and are 100% fatal except with treatment. YV bio-weapons (if they're even applicable) are very useful at rapidly assimilating planets, but they also present their own problems, and YV bio-engineering abilities are frequently exaggerated.

The fact that SW weapons are so much more powerful than ST weapons. According to Ep2 Incredible Crossections SW weapons are measured in power at 200 Gigatons. Thats right, I said 200 Gigatons, according information from Stargate a 1GT blast would be enough to destroy the State of Colorado, thats 200 Colorados gone with one blast, imagine what would happen if all lasers were as wide ranged and not compressed (like normal turbolasers) as a superlaser one shot could destroy a planet. And yes it is possible to destroy a planet with turbolasers, look at Caamas, it was destroyed by an orbiting fleet of Star Destroyers, using just turbolasers.

Duh.

Not mention the Hapan Gun of Command(a small handheld weapon that can take over an enemy's mind). Imagine what would happen if we had such scientists like Qwi Xux, Danni Quee, and Bevel Lemelisk working on a weapon that like a superlaser would envelop entire planets, making capturing a planet so easy that it would require minimal effort.

Typical fanboy techno-wankism, except this time it's from a "Warsie." The Gun of Command, assuming that it can even be reproduced, also may not be scalable, and its full effects have not yet been quantified.

Did I mention YVH combat droids? These are the ultimate droids. They have latinum armor capable of handling multiple thudbug hits, not to mention its self repairing, the armor will repair itself if damged. It has arms capable of holding multiple weapon emplacements, from Repeater Rifles, Concussion Grenade Launchers and portable proton torpedo launchers, these are the ultimate troops.

I hardly see this as "the ultimate droid." There's always room for improvement for such a weapons-platform, so it's generally a slippery-slope fallacy to declare something like this in absolute terms. The YV is a good wardroid, but it also could be improved. Star Trek has little to compete with it, but it wouldn't be particularly relevent during a war between ST and SW, because the major battles--and the psychological ones--would be fought in space, and then in the occupation process. Very little fighting would take place. Remember that the YV is designed SPECIFICALLY to fight the YV. While undoubtedly a capable war-droid in its own right, it is unclear how far this specialization has gone, and what additional abilities it may have sacrificed for performance in this particular sub-field.

I hope that thats enough for the time being!

Thanks.

[smokemare]

On the Q being able to automatically win a war - I would refute that. Yes he can do some cool stuff, but why has he never saved the Federation from impending doom before ? Dominion Wars ? First Contact ? I'd say the scope of Q's powers has definately NOT been proved be as great as to able to wipe out the SW galaxy singlehandedly.

I don't know if there is any evidence to the contrary.

[Darth Fanboy]

Q is probably told not to interfere by the Continuum. Q was created so that if the ST writers ever ran out of ideas or if they had no way of instigating a series of events they always had a cop out.

[smokemare]

Surely zapping the SW galaxy would be the same kind of 'interference' that wouldn't be allowed - that assuming he DOES have that ability. I don't think we've really seen any evidence for scope of Q ability stretching that far.

Just a thought.

[Darth Servo]

Q is probably told not to interfere by the Continuum. Q was created so that if the ST writers ever ran out of ideas or if they had no way of instigating a series of events they always had a cop out.

IOW, same story as timetravel, holodecks and transporter 'accidents'

[Coaan]

Q is probably told not to interfere by the Continuum. Q was created so that if the ST writers ever ran out of ideas or if they had no way of instigating a series of events they always had a cop out.

IOW, same story as timetravel, holodecks and transporter 'accidents'

Or 'accidently' losing a character on a planet somewhere while voyager gets into another fight...that happened quite a few times...

[fgalkin]

Did I mention YVH combat droids? These are the ultimate droids. They have latinum armor capable of handling multiple thudbug hits, not to mention its self repairing, the armor will repair itself if damged. It has arms capable of holding multiple weapon emplacements, from Repeater Rifles, Concussion Grenade Launchers and portable proton torpedo launchers, these are the ultimate troops.

*starts laughing hysterically*.

Sorry, your claims of the droid being the "ultimate" made me think of a Culture combat drone, and a comparison of the two led to the afrementioned reaction.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Kamakazie Sith]

Surely zapping the SW galaxy would be the same kind of 'interference' that wouldn't be allowed - that assuming he DOES have that ability. I don't think we've really seen any evidence for scope of Q ability stretching that far.

Just a thought.

That is all Kerneth is saying. If a SW super race is allowed to interfer when it normally wouldn't than a ST super race should also be allowed to interfer.....that's why no super races are allowed in these debates.

[une]

I remember you from Gamewinners.com.

[Stuart Mackey]

You mean I missed out on all the action!? Well we should just have another debate for the hecht of it!

Oh God no. You've obviously never debated DarkStar.

You call that debating??? fuck, your optimistic.

[Kuja]

Not mention the Hapan Gun of Command(a small handheld weapon that can take over an enemy's mind). Imagine what would happen if we had such scientists like Qwi Xux, Danni Quee, and Bevel Lemelisk working on a weapon that like a superlaser would envelop entire planets, making capturing a planet so easy that it would require minimal effort.

Typical fanboy techno-wankism, except this time it's from a "Warsie." The Gun of Command, assuming that it can even be reproduced, also may not be scalable, and its full effects have not yet been quantified.

What do you mean "assuming that it can be reproduced"? It is a mass-produced weapon, after all.