ST weapon accuracy and range

[Connor MacLeod]

The Phoenix had been pursuing a Cardassian supply ship, which I assume would be travelling at warp speed.

Did they ever say they were at warp? Otherwise it might be more of a debatable situation (I'm also not sure whether visuals would help or not.)

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here; your statements are a little contradictory.

Okay, envision two sets of ships. One set from TOS and one from TNG. Both sets involve one ship in a genrally predictable or stationary course, whilst the other is tracking them at range via sensors, then uses warp to close the distance for attack.

Now, the TOS ships would be less powerful/advanced than the TNG+ era ones. They would generate less overall reactor output, sensors would not be as powerful, engines less powerful etc. In general, they would have a much lower emissions signature over a long distance, and be harder to detect. Likewise, the opposing ship is going to have less effective sensors and a potentially less effective warp drive (less precise, etc.) It gets within say, a few thousands or tens of thousands of kilometers of the target and then must engage.

TNG+ is again, arguably more advanced. Ships will be more powerful, and thus (arguably) be putting out greater emissions (an unfortunate byproduct of being more powerful. Stealth and ECM cannot wholly circumvent this either). Likewise, sensors will probably have advanced as will have warp drive, allowing for greater precision in jumps when you have more information. Thus, a TNG+ era ship tracking another TNG+ era ship could arguably jump in much closer (mere kilometers away) and engage.

Closer ranges can bring about any number of benefits: Greater accuracy, the ability to employ tractor beams (I dont remember them having a very long range) the ability to burn through ECM, greater chances of using torpedoes (and/or torpedoes configured to be more destructive at the cost of range/tracking, etc.)

It's a bit of a sci fi vs debate holdover that "short range is always bad, long range is always good". Which is a bit silly when you think both SW and ST have rather flexible FTL propulsion methods, that allow them to get very close to their targets before engaging. Why MUST they engage at longer ranges at all? Universes like Andromeda or Honor Harrington have long (light minute plus) ranges for missiles, but are forced to by the conventions of the universe (mainly that their FTL isn't as good.) and this can be limiting. I mean, the sorts of attacks a Honorverse or Andromedaverse ship would throw out against an ISD or GCS could easily be avoided if the firing is detected simply by warping out of the way (it would take minutes for them to arrive, after all.)

I've tended to think that the long and short range examples are equally valid, but that the circumstances in which they occur are not neccesarily consistent or applicable to the vs debate at large, although people will still try arguing based on singular examples (as silly as that is.)

[Ted C]

The Phoenix had been pursuing a Cardassian supply ship, which I assume would be travelling at warp speed.

Did they ever say they were at warp? Otherwise it might be more of a debatable situation (I'm also not sure whether visuals would help or not.)

It probably is debatable, but I have trouble seeing any reason for the Cardassian freighter that the Phoenix is pursuing to be traveling at sublight speed. Even if it hasn't detected the Phoenix, it's on an interstellar trade run, which it can't reasonably accomplish at sublight speed.

The Phoenix is attempting to intercept the freighter, so it needs to be travelling at warp speed as well.

The Cardassian warship is attempting to intercept the Phoenix, so it also needs to be travelling at warp speed.

There's just no logical reason for this to be a sublight battle.

[Connor MacLeod]

It probably is debatable, but I have trouble seeing any reason for the Cardassian freighter that the Phoenix is pursuing to be traveling at sublight speed.

Using non-FTL sensors? Maintenance? Manuvering? I'm pretty sure Voyager has established on more than one occasion. I could think of a number of things depending on how one wants to argue it.

There's also debatable targeting issues about objects at FTL and using weapons (EG you might use torpedoes, but what about phaserS?) I recall a few bits from TNG which heavily implies weapons targeting is not (usually) just FTL sensors, but reliant on both LS and (probably) FTL sensors.

Even if it hasn't detected the Phoenix, it's on an interstellar trade run, which it can't reasonably accomplish at sublight speed.

That kinda assumes that one has to be constantly at speed the whole way, and that the trade route is a straight-line.

The Phoenix is attempting to intercept the freighter, so it needs to be travelling at warp speed as well.

The Cardassian warship is attempting to intercept the Phoenix, so it also needs to be travelling at warp speed.

There's just no logical reason for this to be a sublight battle.[/quote]

Again, that depends entirely on how you look at the evidence, doesn't it? The way you argue it woudl require certain conditions that are debatable (Eg the manuvering and targeting issues, possibly also use or non-use of phasers at FTL. I can't recall offhand any example of FTL phaser usage.)

[Purple]

I have not seen the episode in like years. So I might be wrong. But I just have a suggestion.

If two ships are traveling at warp speed at roughly the same warp factor, are they not in fact stationary compared to one another? Or say if two ships were traveling at different warp factor (since a war ship will be faster than the freighter) than the relative speed between them might actually be in the impulse range. And any weapons fired from a starship will carry it's momentum as well.

I mean, just because two ships are flying at warp speed does not mean that there is a massive speed or range difference. The battle between the Phoenix and the freighter might well have happened in a short range and in impulse speed when you look at the two ships relative to each other.

[Connor MacLeod]

I have not seen the episode in like years. So I might be wrong. But I just have a suggestion.

If two ships are traveling at warp speed at roughly the same warp factor, are they not in fact stationary compared to one another? Or say if two ships were traveling at different warp factor (since a war ship will be faster than the freighter) than the relative speed between them might actually be in the impulse range. And any weapons fired from a starship will carry it's momentum as well.

I am hard pressed to see how that would plausibly work. Warp isn't like a "different dimension" as I recall they are both still in realspace. Maybe if they are close to each other, or if warp fields have some sort of huge "area of effect" (possibly) with minimal dropoff at range (iffy but possible) something might be worked if they synchronize.

At best, we're looking at this working at close range and only in pursuit situations. In a head to head battle it wouldn't work any better than if they (say) were a few LS apart. We're not really talking about combat fought purely between computers.

I vaguely recall it claimed once they fire phasers through some sort of subspace field or whatever, but I am hard pressed to think how that would work. Torpedoes IIRC can be modified to be fired at warp (some warp sustainer thing I think) but how do you do that with a beam weapon? I don't think you could create a perfectly conical, force field "tunnel" to shoot a phaser through. And even if you could, why can't they do this in realspace as well? That would give them FTL phasers, and we know they aren't FTL (Think Culture displacers)

I could be wrong. There might be some way ot make it work, but for the life of me I can't see how that isn't going to be any more problematic consistency-wise than what we already are dealing with.

I mean, just because two ships are flying at warp speed does not mean that there is a massive speed or range difference. The battle between the Phoenix and the freighter might well have happened in a short range and in impulse speed when you look at the two ships relative to each other.

The problem in the Phoenix example is that they're flying head to head and (to my knowledge) they aren't making age of sail/jousting type "passes" at warp speed. More to the point, the Phoenix makes evasive manuvers (What point that at FTL, esp as you're no more than a light second apart.)

[Purple]

I was more referring to the fact that if two ships are flying at say 10C than the range between them is constant. And that if ship A is flying at 10C and ship B at 9.5 C than the relative speed between the two is .5 C.

So if one ship was pursuing the other (say A is running away from B) the other would only need to accelerate a little to catch it. The same goes for sensor beams and weapons (since we don't know how all that stuff really works in ST we might as well assume that it can work that way).

And if the range is say 100km than it does not mater what speeds the two ships are flying at.

With speeds having perhaps an even smaller difference a battle could take place between two ships flying at warp within short ranges from one another where the dynamics would be identical to those of two ships fighting at normal speeds because the relative speeds are not that great.


And we newer really see fighting at warp speeds unless its a high speed chase with the pursuer catching up.

[Ted C]

We know that starships can exchange phaser fire at warp if they're close enough. We've seen it happen in VOY "Message in a Bottle" (if I remember the title, the one with the Prometheus). We also know that torpedos have "sustainer engines" that keep them travelling at warp speed if they're launched from a ship at warp.

According to Data, the Phoenix move "out of range" of the Cardassian ship and returned fire with torpedos. The viewscreen, however, shows the Phoenix well within the range rings of the Cardassian ship, except the innermost ring.



Meanwhile, the Cardassian ship is only within the Phoenix's outermost ring, which is presumably torpedo range, since that's what the Phoenix used to return fire.

So what's that innermost ring for the Cardassian ship, and why does the Phoenix getting outside of it make the ship pretty safe from further Cardassian fire?

[Connor MacLeod]

I was more referring to the fact that if two ships are flying at say 10C than the range between them is constant. And that if ship A is flying at 10C and ship B at 9.5 C than the relative speed between the two is .5 C.

So if one ship was pursuing the other (say A is running away from B) the other would only need to accelerate a little to catch it. The same goes for sensor beams and weapons (since we don't know how all that stuff really works in ST we might as well assume that it can work that way).

Um, no, we can't assume sensor and weapons work that way out of hand, simply because that would be inventing abilities that aren't there. ARe you trying to tell me phasers can routinely fire at velocities that are multiples of c? That would suggest weapons ranges far beyond anything we see or hear about for them. More to the point, I can think of some arguments against the sensor argument due to the Picard Manuver.

With speeds having perhaps an even smaller difference a battle could take place between two ships flying at warp within short ranges from one another where the dynamics would be identical to those of two ships fighting at normal speeds because the relative speeds are not that great.

So long as one side doesn't do something to dramatically alter their speed (Speed up, slow down, or brake entirely) I doubt you can rely on both sides seeking to maintain a constant velocity at all times. And this would still be limited by the kind of approach one makes.

And we newer really see fighting at warp speeds unless its a high speed chase with the pursuer catching up.

I wouldn't be so certain about this unless you have actually watched every episode of Trek and actually documented it. Trek has this annoying habit of contradicting itself in annoying ways, especially cross different series.

[Kamakazie Sith]

According to Data, the Phoenix move "out of range" of the Cardassian ship and returned fire with torpedos. The viewscreen, however, shows the Phoenix well within the range rings of the Cardassian ship, except the innermost ring.



Meanwhile, the Cardassian ship is only within the Phoenix's outermost ring, which is presumably torpedo range, since that's what the Phoenix used to return fire.

So what's that innermost ring for the Cardassian ship, and why does the Phoenix getting outside of it make the ship pretty safe from further Cardassian fire?

Actually, this viewscreen screen shot is shown a full ten+ seconds after Data says the Phoenix moved out of range. It only makes sense that the Phoenix moved back within weapons range to fire on the Cardassian ship. The Cardassian ship fired on the Phoenix when it was within the outer most ring of the Cardassian ship weapons.

Also, I don't believe these ships are moving at warp otherwise they would have covered the 300,000Km in a second. The most critical observation for this is because the ships are moving towards each other.

[Connor MacLeod]

We know that starships can exchange phaser fire at warp if they're close enough. We've seen it happen in VOY "Message in a Bottle" (if I remember the title, the one with the Prometheus).

Looking over a transcript of that episode, it looks like it might have been a pursuit situation. Although they use that MVAM and they never actually give any solid indication (in the script) they stayed at warp. I bet if they manuvered, or if we see any visuals (and if its a space battle I bet we did) which would throw some doubts into that for the reasons I outlined above (or if it wsa at warp, it wasn't CONSTANTLY at warp. THat's something I've considered in this discussion quite a bit.)

We also know that torpedos have "sustainer engines" that keep them travelling at warp speed if they're launched from a ship at warp.

Okay.

According to Data, the Phoenix move "out of range" of the Cardassian ship and returned fire with torpedos. The viewscreen, however, shows the Phoenix well within the range rings of the Cardassian ship, except the innermost ring.

*snip image for brevity*

Meanwhile, the Cardassian ship is only within the Phoenix's outermost ring, which is presumably torpedo range, since that's what the Phoenix used to return fire.

So what's that innermost ring for the Cardassian ship, and why does the Phoenix getting outside of it make the ship pretty safe from further Cardassian fire?

Being "out of range" doesn't tell us alot. Optimal range? Maximum range? I don't think I have to point out to you that weapons range is not going to be an absolute, and that lots of factors (like manuvering) could affect it (hitting a stationary target and a moving target at a given range is one thing, for example. Even then they might not have the same hit probabilities defneidng on target performance, the power output of the weapons (propogation speed, effective damage at a given range, coherency, etc.)

In that context the other rings could dictate effective range under other circumstnaces or parameters ("point blank rnage", or "medium range" or "range to disable" or whatever.) It would be hard to say exactly without more info, but its not improbable either.

[Connor MacLeod]

My main doubt about Ships moving at Warp is that we often see visuals of battles or ships supposedly "at warp" manuvering or travelling, and it was always with that weird "white bits moving by the ship at high speed" visual effect. Which I am not really sure is how you would want to depict FTL travel (I'd guess they're meant to be stars but that seems a bit silly to me - I mean if we really WERE seeing them move at FTL we wouldn't see any light emitting from the stars, would we? I'd also imagine there would be some FTL version of the red/blue shifting you get at near-c velocities, if not other funky effects.)

Of course, being AT warp doesnt neccesarily mean that a ship has to stay at warp I'm pretty sure we have examples (the aforementioned Picard manuver) that show that it is possible to make very very short warp hops very quickly, so I would imagine that you could have a starship that moves linearly at warp a short distance, drops out of warp to manuver, jumps into warp again, etc. It wouldn't necesarily be EASY to do (you'd need automation or a well drilled crew I bet, with lots of practice) but it should be doable. In that sense it would be a bit like Lensmanverse Inertialess drive.

[Batman]

And if the range is say 100km than it does not mater what speeds the two ships are flying at.

Unless the two Warp fields intersect at that range, it does for phasers. The phaser discharge will drop to STL the moment it leaves the pursuers' Warp field, and once it has it's never going to catch up to an FTL target.

With speeds having perhaps an even smaller difference a battle could take place between two ships flying at warp within short ranges from one another where the dynamics would be identical to those of two ships fighting at normal speeds because the relative speeds are not that great.

As long as their Warp fields intersect or they stick to torpedoes, absolutely. But just because relative speeds may be STL that does not mean we can automatically treat it as an STL battle.

As for the diagrams one thing I never noticed before is that for the Cardassian ship, the circles are actually larger. Shouldn't that be the other way round, what with Federation hardware generally being considered superior? Or am I misremembering things?

There's a number of possible explanations for the Phoenix being out of range despite being in range as per the diagram (none of them necessarily particularly satisfactory)

1. Those circles represent theoretical firing range but don't take into account field of fire, i.e. the Cardassians had the range but couldn't get a gun to bear on Phoenix. Should be a nonissue in space, really-just twist the ship until it points wherever the fuck you want-but Trek can be weird that way, and assuming this was at Warp, we know they have issues with maneuvering FTL. (Of course, that raises the question of how did Phoenix get out of their field of fire as she should have the same problems but...)

2. The circles actually represent hit probabilities, not absolute weapon ranges, and the inner circle representing the farthest range at which the Cardassians are reasonably expected to hit, thus Phoenix being presumed safely out of range while she's beyond that (the other two circles presumably presenting data obtained from less reliable sources or something, as in the inner ring being what the Feds assume they can do, the middle represents what they maybe capable of, and the outer ring representing what they don't think the Cardassians are capable of but can't rule out for certain), which would actually explain why the Phoenixes range circles are smaller-the Federation would naturally have a lot more solid data on their own weaponry than the Cardassian's, so their range circles might go virtually guaranteed hit-highly probable hit-possible hit instead.

3. Essentially a variation of 2-the circles don't represent weapon, but sensor ranges. The inner ring is the range at which the Cardassians can locate and pinpoint Phoenix to the point of being able to shoot her. The middle ring, they can roughly locate her, but not to the point of being able to fire on her and have a snowball's chance to land a hit (thus her being out of range). The outer ring represents the range at which they can tell that yes, she's there, and she's somewhere in front of us.

And is there supposed to be a second Cardassian ship? (Have mercy-I haven't seen that episode in ages).

[Kamakazie Sith]

There's a number of possible explanations for the Phoenix being out of range despite being in range as per the diagram (none of them necessarily particularly satisfactory)

The episode if available on YouTube. Anyway, I offered a fourth explanation. The screen shot that TedC posted comes up 10 + seconds after Data says they moved outside the weapons range and approximately 4-5 seconds after Data says that the Phoenix and powered its weapon system do we see that screen shot.

1. Those circles represent theoretical firing range but don't take into account field of fire, i.e. the Cardassians had the range but couldn't get a gun to bear on Phoenix. Should be a nonissue in space, really-just twist the ship until it points wherever the fuck you want-but Trek can be weird that way, and assuming this was at Warp, we know they have issues with maneuvering FTL. (Of course, that raises the question of how did Phoenix get out of their field of fire as she should have the same problems but...)

Highly unlikely that they were at warp as the Cardassian warship and the Phoenix were heading at each other at one point. Even at warp one which is suppose to be light speed they would cover that distance in less than a second.

3. Essentially a variation of 2-the circles don't represent weapon, but sensor ranges. The inner ring is the range at which the Cardassians can locate and pinpoint Phoenix to the point of being able to shoot her. The middle ring, they can roughly locate her, but not to the point of being able to fire on her and have a snowball's chance to land a hit (thus her being out of range). The outer ring represents the range at which they can tell that yes, she's there, and she's somewhere in front of us.

Incorrect since the Cardassian ship fired on and hit the Phoenix while they were just barely about to cross the line into the middle ring.

And is there supposed to be a second Cardassian ship? (Have mercy-I haven't seen that episode in ages).

Yes, that second ship is a cargo ship.

[Paula42]

I am not 100% on this sort of stuff but presumably the weapons ranges and firing arcs would vary depending on the type/power of weapon, the position of the opposing ship on a 3D plane and the orientation of the attacking ships weapons as such it is reasonable to say that a ship firing at a target behind and below it could have a shorter firing range due to that position forcing it to use a weaker weapon that if the target was in front of it.

As such the rings could represent the firing ranges that are dependant on perfect positioning and it cannot show if the ships fighting are maneuvering into positions below or above each other nor does it show the orientation of the ships as it is likely that the main forward weapons have more power and longer ranges than others (or at the very least some of the weapons maybe more powerful than others and have limited arcs).

The image above could conceivably be a image of the phoenix outside the weapons ranges of the opposing ship by being below and/or behind it but the limitations of using a 2D display is incapable of showing such.

[Ted C]

Of course, being AT warp doesnt neccesarily mean that a ship has to stay at warp I'm pretty sure we have examples (the aforementioned Picard manuver) that show that it is possible to make very very short warp hops very quickly, so I would imagine that you could have a starship that moves linearly at warp a short distance, drops out of warp to manuver, jumps into warp again, etc. It wouldn't necesarily be EASY to do (you'd need automation or a well drilled crew I bet, with lots of practice) but it should be doable. In that sense it would be a bit like Lensmanverse Inertialess drive.

The problem here is the freighter. Unless it's taken completely by surprise (and why WOULDN'T the Cardassian ship in the area notify it that it was the target of an attack?), then it's captain would be a complete fool not go to warp.

• Running at warp at least gives more time for the Cardassian warship to destroy or delay the Federation ship.
• A ship chasing at warp will have less power available to put into weapons.
• Torpedos launched at it will take slightly longer to reach it, giving more time for countermeasures.

Everything about this situation says that the freighter should be at warp speed, the Phoenix moving at warp to catch it, and the Cardassian warship moving at warp to intercept.

[Ted C]

And is there supposed to be a second Cardassian ship? (Have mercy-I haven't seen that episode in ages).

There are two Cardassian ships: a warship and a supply ship. The supply ship shows no range circles.

Another explanation I've advanced for the "out of range" statement is related to motion. If we assume the Cardassian ship is chasing the Phoenix, then the Phoenix is running away from any torpedoes it fires, increasing their flight time to the target. Increase it enough, and the "sustainer engine" may give out before the torpedo reaches the target. Meanwhile, the Cardassian is running toward any torpedos fired by the Phoenix, decreasing their flight time. It's possible that the difference in time that a torpedo has to spend actually propelling itself toward the target accounts for the "out of range" situation, with the mapped circles only indicating weapons range for ships that are effectively "at rest".

[Ted C]

The image above could conceivably be a image of the phoenix outside the weapons ranges of the opposing ship by being below and/or behind it but the limitations of using a 2D display is incapable of showing such.

With only three targets being tracked, it would be simple enough to display all of them in a single plane, which would be the most useful view for the Enterprise crew observing the battle. There's no reason that any ship on the screen should be "above or below" any of the others on the z-axis. If they are, the viewscreen programmers are incompetent.

[Paula42]

The image above could conceivably be a image of the phoenix outside the weapons ranges of the opposing ship by being below and/or behind it but the limitations of using a 2D display is incapable of showing such.

With only three targets being tracked, it would be simple enough to display all of them in a single plane, which would be the most useful view for the Enterprise crew observing the battle. There's no reason that any ship on the screen should be "above or below" any of the others on the z-axis. If they are, the view-screen programmers are incompetent.

It seems to me that a 2D image like we see is a poor way to show a fight that includes maneuvering in 3D and as such it is likely the ranges we see are dependant on position so it is quite reasonable to say that a ship can look like its inside a ring but be outside firing range, it is also supported by the fact that the stars we see in the back ground would be within range of the ships weapons if it was so simplistically interpreted.

With that in mind id say its a simplistic visual aid they likely used due to the presence of the cardassians and the fact they promised openness in regards to sharing info and that there is other information off screen that factors in orientation and position that they did not feel the need to include on the viewer.

[Purple]

Since the freighter is largely insignificant for the display at hand (since the screen is a weapons range indicator) the most logical thing would be to draw a line through the cardasian and federation war ships and place the horizontal plane along that line.

If any of the ships moves up or down along the Z axis the entire image will rotate it's horizontal plane to reflect the relative range.

After all, if you want to present accurate ranges that is what you will do. And that is the simplest way to get a 3D image on to a 2D plane without inaccuracy. Pretty much what Ted C said but in plain English.

There is no such thing as an absolute coordinate system in space.

[darthy]

Missiles on star trek have no known upper limit. Dreadnought from voyager episode "Dreadnought", the smart bomb from episode "Warhead", and in DS9 episode "Blaze of Glory" there were fears of alleged cloaked missles that were going to hit cardassia in 13 days after their launch.

As far as hand weapons go, the TR116 with the micro transporter addon from DS9 episode "Field of Fire" looked pretty good to me. I liked that guns ability to see into anyone's quarters on the station without them knowing (a peeping tom's dream come true). That weapons ability to kill is similar to the Tantalus field from TOS episode "Mirror, Mirror": Push a button and they die, doesn't matter where they are.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Darthy, you've made 6 posts so far, and most of them have been necros. I would suggest (And I'm not trying to be a backseat mod here, it's a suggestion) that you avoid posting in threads that have been quite for longer than about a week. Otherwise the mods might oppress you.

[Ted C]

Missiles on star trek have no known upper limit. Dreadnought from voyager episode "Dreadnought", the smart bomb from episode "Warhead", and in DS9 episode "Blaze of Glory" there were fears of alleged cloaked missles that were going to hit cardassia in 13 days after their launch.

Ah, a "no limits" claim. But photon torpedos used at warp speed unquestionably will have an upper limit on how long they can stay at warp. When the "warp sustainer engine" runs out of fuel, the missile will drop to sublights speed, at which it can keep drifting indefinitely, but uselessly. The other examples are irrelevant to this situation.

As far as hand weapons go, the TR116 with the micro transporter addon from DS9 episode "Field of Fire" looked pretty good to me. I liked that guns ability to see into anyone's quarters on the station without them knowing (a peeping tom's dream come true). That weapons ability to kill is similar to the Tantalus field from TOS episode "Mirror, Mirror": Push a button and they die, doesn't matter where they are.

How "non sequitur" can you get?

[Connor MacLeod]

There's also voyager where Paris mentions that stuff at FTL (when at warp) cannot manuver. So your FTL torpedoes become effectively line of sight weapons. If the range is short enough that might not matter as far as reaction time goes, but that's entirely up for debate.

It's also quite possible that torpedoes at FTL are going to weigh almost nothing, and would bounce off shields if they impact. We know warp fields reduce mass (akin to a Lensmanverse inertialess drive) so at best you're going to get proximity hits.

And weve seen that transporters can be blocked by varying things (Electricity and gravity, for example) Or just by denying them sensor information.

[Connor MacLeod]

That interpretation is without a doubt wrong though - we see ships maneuver at warp on several occasions.

Yes we have, but we've also seen that you can go at or below the speed of light whilst at warp. The idea in voyager (as I recall) is that its impossible to manuver whilse FTL.

I'd guess if they manuver they decelerate to at or below c, manuver, then acceperate up to FTL as well. That actually fits with the TOS examples of "Warp Strafing" gone over so often too, since IIRC they were effectively STL whilst at warp.

[Batman]

Well there's turning, and there's turning hard. While ships absolutely can change course at Warp, IIRC they tend to do so rather sedately. I always imagined the 'faster than light, no left or right' to work the same way turning works for high supersonic aircraft like the Blackbird. You can turn. You just have to accept a turn radius that intrudes on the airspace of several nations if you do it over Europe.

Not that I see why that is relevant to photon torpedoes. To my knowledge we never see them change course FTL (heck I can't recall a time we see them change course outside TUC period) and even if they can do it, that ability will eventually go away because they don't have infinite fuel. So while they might have theoretically infinite range, for the vast majority of it they will also be ballistic and inert (and that's assuming they don't simply self-destruct when antimatter containment fails) and thus essentially useless.