Stargate Universe has been cancelled.

[Batman]

Ronon effectively invalidated what Tayla was in the general sense of how the story works...ie the outsider warrior type joining the team.

That's not what Tayla (or Teal'c, for that matter) were. It was part of it for Teal'c. Never for Tayla.

With Ronon, Tayla had nowhere to go character wise.

She had to go where she went and what she was depicted as from the word go-the ambassador, the on with the inside knowledge, the one with the contacts. A figure SG-1 didn't really have, they generally relied on Teal'c for Goa'uld stuff or Daniel for pseudohistoric human societies.

Teal'c was the muscle (as SG-1 itself referenced, especially in 200). In the beginning, Tayla was the muscle. Then Ronon came along and took that away from her.

Tayla was their inside source. She might have doubled as their muscle, but there was always more to her than that.

[JME2]

O'Neill is pulling off his role to some extent. Jeebus Christ RDA put on weight, and its hard to buy jack O' Neill as grim dark when he's pudgy, but somehow his irritable tongue lashings to young fit the bill, and we've seen hints in SG-1 that without a moderating influence like Daniel he can be pretty dark, so condoning the torture was acceptable as well.

To be fair, the cordoning of torture was continued from SG-1. Remember, O'Neill had seen firsthand the difficulty of breaking Goa'uld brainwashing on multiple occasions (the Za'tarc scare, Teal'c and Ry'ac falling victim to Apophis). The lack of a Danie-esque figure probably didn't help either

but using Daniel as a spy, just seems inexcusable. the character spends 10 years as a four eyed clutz and now he's a special operative?? Come on.

I agree Daniel's role felt forced in that episode. The only way it could be justified is that O'Neill was worried. If a high-ranking SGC commander like Telford had been compromised, O'Neill may have felt the only people he could trust beyond reproach were his old SG-1 teammates - though granted, any of them could have been brainwashed too. It's just forced writing, again.

Carter is just plain wasted commanding an F304. She uses none of the brains that characterized her in SG:1. I would rather have seen her running the SG:C if anything, or maybe an offowrld base, say the moonbase.

Agreed, Carter should never have been put in charge of Atlantis or a BC-304; it doesn't fit her character.

[Lonestar]

Agreed, Carter should never have been put in charge of Atlantis or a BC-304; it doesn't fit her character.

I disagree, and disagree strongly.

You guys tend to think of Carter as "Scientist first, Airman second." This is the wrong way to look at her. It's established that she's been a combat pilot in the past, and if she was purely a scientist her butt would be sitting in the Lab with Felger and Lee rather than taking off on SG missions. That she didn't resign ages ago to come on the program as a civilian scientist says to me that she is seriously concerned about her career as a warfighter.


A BC-304 or the Atlantis expedition are commands career military types would strangle people for.

[CaptJodan]

Ronon effectively invalidated what Tayla was in the general sense of how the story works...ie the outsider warrior type joining the team.

That's not what Tayla (or Teal'c, for that matter) were. It was part of it for Teal'c. Never for Tayla.

Teal'c served the same function, especially in the early seasons, as Tayla did in her role; as both (what I said) an outsider, warrior, and intergalactic tour guide. Teal'c knew more than just Goa'uld knowledge, just as Tayla knew more than just Wraith knowledge.

With Ronon, Tayla had nowhere to go character wise.

She had to go where she went and what she was depicted as from the word go-the ambassador, the on with the inside knowledge, the one with the contacts. A figure SG-1 didn't really have, they generally relied on Teal'c for Goa'uld stuff or Daniel for pseudohistoric human societies.[/quote]

Her usefulness in that role was limited, and it doesn't take much character to do that job. She didn't become more than what her job was, as Teal'c did. Teal'c was the muscle, but he grew to be a compelling character beyond that limited role. Tayla lost ground when her role as warrior and outsider was usurped by Ronon. All that was left was the tour guide thing, which didn't give her much to work with character wise.

Tayla was their inside source. She might have doubled as their muscle, but there was always more to her than that.

Not much, and it doesn't always help the story when your tour guide knows everything that needs knowing about where you are. Part of the fun of SG-1 was Daniel trying to figure out how a specific culture worked. SGA did some episodes like this as well when Tayla or Ronon didn't know the area, but not as many. It's hard to gain a sense of wonder or "hey look, something new" when some of our main characters have already been there before. And apparently it didn't help her character grow beyond her job.

[JME2]

Teyla's character growth took a hit even earlier in Season 1 when they moved the Athosians to the mainland, a move that I always disagreed with.

[Crazedwraith]

Agreed, Carter should never have been put in charge of Atlantis or a BC-304; it doesn't fit her character.

I disagree, and disagree strongly.

You guys tend to think of Carter as "Scientist first, Airman second." This is the wrong way to look at her. It's established that she's been a combat pilot in the past, and if she was purely a scientist her butt would be sitting in the Lab with Felger and Lee rather than taking off on SG missions. That she didn't resign ages ago to come on the program as a civilian scientist says to me that she is seriously concerned about her career as a warfighter.

Which is why after season 8, when Sg-1 disbanded, she went so do research for Area 51? When did she ever buck for military command? She was happy being SG-1's science person for seven years. Her first command was basically given to her on a platter by O'Neill and she gave that up pretty quickly to once again be happy obeying the inexperienced and mainly idiotic Mitchell.

[CaptJodan]

Teyla's character growth took a hit even earlier in Season 1 when they moved the Athosians to the mainland, a move that I always disagreed with.

I'd agree with that.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Which is why after season 8, when Sg-1 disbanded, she went so do research for Area 51? When did she ever buck for military command? She was happy being SG-1's science person for seven years. Her first command was basically given to her on a platter by O'Neill and she gave that up pretty quickly to once again be happy obeying the inexperienced and mainly idiotic Mitchell.

I think Carter's personality is analogous to the chief engineers in Star Trek. They were career military, but usually did not actively seek command positions outside their immediate area of expertise. In other words Carter was happy being an airman and part of the military instead of being a civilian scientists with a bunch of nerds in some research facility, but she didn't actually want to be a leader of men, so to speak, and only gained her rank by being exceptionally good in her job as a scientist and engineer as well as a competent soldier when necessary.

It is also good to note that Carter was never "just" a scientist interested in theories and fundamental research, but also a very accomplished engineer. You may put that to the typical scifi show "expert of every field" syndrome, which is done in order to have a more manageable number of characters, but nevertheless Carter was the kind of gal that probably could diagnose and repair a car engine by the age of 12.

[Lonestar]

Which is why after season 8, when Sg-1 disbanded, she went so do research for Area 51? When did she ever buck for military command? She was happy being SG-1's science person for seven years. Her first command was basically given to her on a platter by O'Neill and she gave that up pretty quickly to once again be happy obeying the inexperienced and mainly idiotic Mitchell.

Incorrect: She left SGC when Jack O'Neill did and after Jackson and Teal'c indicated they did not want to be on a SG Team anymore. As it was she was away for a mighty 6 months before decided that she wanted to be a shooter again, and being XO was something that was acceptable to her(as Jackson and Teal'c were both back).

I reiterate, if all she really wanted to do was be a scientist she would have resigned her commission a long time ago, if only so she could pursue a relationship with O'Neill. Being an officer and a shooter was important enough that she resignation never seriously crossed her mind(although it it seemed to have crossed O'Neill's)

[Crazedwraith]

Please explain how you established the exact order of people leaving SGC/SG-1 between Seasons 8 & 9.

I never said Carter only wanted to be a scientist. I just said she was never shown to be bucking for serious military command. Her only real prior command was SG-1, which O'Neill practically forced on her because he was too damned lazy to try and find them a fourth member. All her off duty time is spent with her science toys (or her bikes) not military stuff.

Obviously she enjoys being military, otherwise, as you say, she would resign but that doesn't translate into 'wants to be an administrator' it could just be she actually enjoyed the field work. Good exercise, meeting new peoples, new tech first hand, and shooting it.

[xt828]

Wasn't Carter an actual combat pilot with combat kills, prior to starting at the SGC? I don't remember her degree in SCIENCE! being overly emphasised in the early episodes.

[JME2]

Wasn't Carter an actual combat pilot with combat kills, prior to starting at the SGC? I don't remember her degree in SCIENCE! being overly emphasised in the early episodes.

Yes, the pilot established that she had logged over 100 hours in enemy space during the Persian Gulf War.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Wasn't Carter an actual combat pilot with combat kills, prior to starting at the SGC? I don't remember her degree in SCIENCE! being overly emphasised in the early episodes.

Yes, the pilot established that she had logged over 100 hours in enemy space during the Persian Gulf War.

Did the USAF even have female combat pilots back then? I haven't seen the pilot episode in ages, but I'm pretty sure her war exploits were not mentioned too many times in the later seasons, whereas O'Neill's history as a specops guy was mentioned several times.

[Crazedwraith]

Wasn't Carter an actual combat pilot with combat kills, prior to starting at the SGC? I don't remember her degree in SCIENCE! being overly emphasised in the early episodes.

And? So? Therefore? What's your point about Carter?

[Marcus Aurelius]

Wasn't Carter an actual combat pilot with combat kills, prior to starting at the SGC? I don't remember her degree in SCIENCE! being overly emphasised in the early episodes.

And? So? Therefore? What's your point about Carter?

I think his point is the same as Lonestar's (and mine). She had clearly two loves in her life, science and her military career and she liked the latter so much that even MacGyver's boyish manly charm could not convince her to abandon it in order to pursue a sexual relationship with him. Nevertheless, like I wrote earlier, she was not very interested in command positions, which by the way is consistent with the way many real life fighter pilots are, so that fits as well.

[Themightytom]

And? So? Therefore? What's your point about Carter?

I think his point is the same as Lonestar's (and mine). She had clearly two loves in her life, science and her military career and she liked the latter so much that even MacGyver's boyish manly charm could not convince her to abandon it in order to pursue a sexual relationship with him. Nevertheless, like I wrote earlier, she was not very interested in command positions, which by the way is consistent with the way many real life fighter pilots are, so that fits as well.[/quote]

So your point is, she is more soldier than scientist because she wouldn't have sex with O'Neill.
Wow.

Why do the three of you place precedence on a reference to off screen activity as a background qualification over observable events over ten years

She wasn't staying late at the SGC all those times in order to get in more flight time, she never once mentioned missing it! Jack picked TEAL'C over Carter to fly the Eurondan fighters, lets not start painting her as fricking Maverick.

Carter presents herself as the best of both worlds, a scientist and an officer, This was pointed out ON the show, when she first corrected O'Neill's use of her salutation, on Earth, as a Captain, and then on Abydos introduced herself as Doctor Carter.

There's no reason to think Carter is particularly career minded, she has demonstrated the complete opposite throughout the series. She's definitely wasted as an BC 304 Commander, both because of her aptitude as a scientist, and because of her experience on SG-1.

She knows the stargates better than nearly anyone, she has first hand experience and a skill set that makes her ideal for a base commander overseeing exploration or research and development, not command of a BC 304, which would be tasked with defense and patrol duties.

Both the SGC and Atlantis perform duel research and developement and exploration roles, she would have been highly qualified for both.

Buuuuut you can't fly the SGC around and pew pew bad guys in the pilot so... let's not sugar coat the reasoning behind her placement here.

[Marcus Aurelius]

I think his point is the same as Lonestar's (and mine). She had clearly two loves in her life, science and her military career and she liked the latter so much that even MacGyver's boyish manly charm could not convince her to abandon it in order to pursue a sexual relationship with him. Nevertheless, like I wrote earlier, she was not very interested in command positions, which by the way is consistent with the way many real life fighter pilots are, so that fits as well.

So your point is, she is more soldier than scientist because she wouldn't have sex with O'Neill.
Wow.

Why do the three of you place precedence on a reference to off screen activity as a background qualification over observable events over ten years

WTF? No, I didn't mean to say she was more a soldier than a scientist because she wouldn't have sex with MacGyver, but it clearly showed that she valued her military career very highly. The obviously mutual attraction between O'Neill and Carter was strongly hinted at in several episodes and like Lonestar wrote, O'Neill even considered resigning, albeit briefly, so that he could have a romantic relationship with Carter. It was not some kind of schoolyard fling, purely physical attraction or something that was one-sided. In the end, though, both of them and especially Carter felt that her military career was more important despite the fact that she would have had a perfectly good, no scratch that, extremely successful career still left as a civilian scientist! If that does not tell you something about how much she valued her military career, then I don't know what would.