There are 1.3 Billion Chinese. And they want Buicks.

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

Post Reply
User avatar
MKSheppard
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Posts: 29842
Joined: 2002-07-06 06:34pm

There are 1.3 Billion Chinese. And they want Buicks.

Post by MKSheppard »

Two recent articles in the Post:

Link
China to raise sales tax on small cars Jan. 1

By Keith Richburg and Peter Whoriskey
Washington Post Staff Writers

Tuesday, December 28, 2010; 9:46 PM

China will raise the sales tax on small cars Jan. 1, it was announced Tuesday, ending an economic stimulus that helped the country take the world lead in auto purchases and improved the fuel efficiency of the nation's fleet.

The move follows by just days the announcement of a decision to sharply limit the number of cars allowed in Beijing, a city that has been ensnared in traffic jams.

Exactly how China handles its rapidly growing demand for automobiles and the pollution they cause is of keen interest to environmentalists and automakers across the globe.

Last year, for the first time, there were more cars sold in China than in the United States, and the magnitude of the nation's demand has made it a key point of reference in discussions of greenhouse gas emissions and world economics.

"Whatever happens in China's car market is impacting every automaker on the planet," said Karl Brauer, senior analyst and editor at large at Edmunds.com, an automotive Web site. "Every car company across the globe is looking at China, and if they aren't, they're not going to be in business long."

Combined, the end of the sales tax break and the Beijing limit on autos are expected to put downward pressure on sales in China. But automakers said they expect that the market will nonetheless continue to surge in the rapidly growing country.

"Both of those actions were anticipated, and we still expect to see continued strong demand and growth," said Greg Martin, a spokesman for GM, which has the largest presence in China among U.S. automakers.

China has become a critical market for the automaker, which is partially owned by the U.S. government.

The company expects GM sales in China to increase by 10 percent or more in 2011. This month, the company announced that Shanghai GM, a joint venture between the U.S. automaker and SAIC, had become the first passenger car manufacturer in China to sell 1 million vehicles in a single year. This year, it has sold about 500,000 Buicks, 490,000 Chevrolets and 16,000 Cadillacs, the company said.

Exactly how the new rules will affect automakers depends on the company, analysts said. For example, U.S. automakers may benefit from China removing the sales tax incentive for smaller cars relative to larger cars.

"That may bode well for U.S. automakers because they generally are better equipped to produce medium to large vehicles than smaller, fuel-efficient vehicles, though that is changing," Brauer said.

Last year, China cut in half the sales tax rate on vehicles with engines of 1.6 liters or less. The measure was viewed as a means of stimulating the economy and encouraging smaller, more fuel-efficient engines.

But China will restore the sales tax on small cars to the full 10 percent beginning with the new year, the Ministry of Finance said Tuesday.

The limit on new cars in Beijing arises from a new traffic plan for the city.

The plan involves miles of new underground highways, higher inner-city parking fees, a new bicycle-sharing plan, and, as its most controversial element, a limit of 240,000 license plates next year for the car-congested capital, or about a third of the new vehicles registered for 2010.

Beijing authorities defended their plan, saying Shanghai and Hong Kong have even stricter controls on the number of new vehicles allowed to be registered each year. Shanghai allows 10,000 and Hong Kong 1,000, Li Xiaosong, vice director of the Beijing Municipal Commission of Transport, said on the radio.

Automobile dealers reported that they were unable to sleep in recent days because of the surge in people buying new vehicles hoping to register in time to beat the end-of-year deadline. People lined up outside showrooms.

As of mid-December, Beijing had 4.76 million registered vehicles, an increase of 700,000 in 2010 over the previous year - and a growth rate Beijing traffic authorities said was unsustainable.
Link
China has seen the future, and it is coal

By George F. Will
Thursday, December 30, 2010;

Cowlitz County in Washington state is across the Columbia River from Portland, Ore., which promotes mass transit and urban density and is a green reproach to the rest of us. Recently, Cowlitz did something that might make Portland wonder whether shrinking its carbon footprint matters. Cowlitz approved construction of a coal export terminal from which millions of tons of U.S. coal could be shipped to Asia annually.

Both Oregon and Washington are curtailing the coal-fired generation of electricity, but the future looks to greens as black as coal. The future looks a lot like the past.

Historian William Rosen (who wrote "The Most Powerful Idea in the World," about the invention of the steam engine) says coal was Europe's answer to the 12th-century "wood crisis," when Christians leveled much forestation to destroy sanctuaries for pagan worship and to open up farmland. Population increase meant more wooden carts, houses and ships, so wood became an expensive way to heat dwellings or cook. By 1230, England had felled so many trees it was importing most of its timber and was turning to coal.

"It was not until the 1600s," Rosen writes, "that English miners found their way down to the level of the water table and started needing a means to get at the coal below it." In time, steam engines were invented to pump out water and lift out coal. The engines were fired by coal.

Today, about half of America's and the world's electricity is generated by coal, the substance that, since it fueled the Industrial Revolution, has been a crucial source of energy. Over the past eight years, it has been the world's fastest-growing source of fuel. The New York Times recently reported ("Booming China Is Buying Up World's Coal," Nov. 22) about China's ravenous appetite for coal, which is one reason coal's price has doubled in five years.

Half of the 6 billion tons of coal burned globally each year is burned in China. A spokesman for the Sierra Club, which in recent years has helped to block construction of 139 proposed coal-fired plants in America, says, "This is undermining everything we've accomplished." America, say environmentalists, is exporting global warming.

Can something really be exported if it supposedly affects the entire planet? Never mind. America has partners in this crime against nature, if such it is. One Australian company proposes to build the Cowlitz facility; another has signed a $60 billion contract to supply Chinese power plants with Australian coal.

The Times says ships - all burning hydrocarbons - hauled about 690 million tons of thermal coal this year, up from 385 million in 2001. China, which imported about 150 million tons this year, was a net exporter of coal until 2009, sending abroad its low-grade coal and importing higher-grade, low-sulfur coal from, for example, the Powder River Basin of Wyoming and Montana. Because much of China's enormous coal reserves is inland, far from coastal factories, it is sometimes more economical to import American and Australian coal.

Writing in the Atlantic on China's appetite for coal and possible aptitude for using the old fuel in new, cleaner ways, James Fallows quotes a Chinese official saying that the country's transportation system is the only serious limit on how fast power companies increase their use of coal. One reason China is building light-rail systems is to get passenger traffic out of the way of coal trains.

Fallows reports that 15 years from now China expects that 350 million people will be living in cities that do not exist yet. This will require adding to China's electrical system a capacity almost as large as America's current capacity. The United States, China, Russia and India have 40 percent of the world's population and 60 percent of its coal.

A climate scientist told Fallows that stabilizing the carbon-dioxide concentration in the atmosphere would require the world to reduce its emissions to Kenya's level - for America, a 96 percent reduction. Nations with hundreds of millions of people in poverty would, Fallows says, have to "forgo the energy-intensive path toward wealth that the United States has traveled for so many years."

In his new political science treatise ("Don't Vote - It Just Encourages the Bastards"), P.J. O'Rourke says, "There are 1.3 billion people in China, and they all want a Buick." So "go tell 1.3 billion Chinese they can never have a Buick." If the future belongs to electric cars, those in China may run on energy currently stored beneath Wyoming and Montana.
So, doesn't it feel like a never ending battle guys? Just as you start convincing some people in Europe and North America to cut their carbon footprint, the Chinese come along and negate it totally?
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong

"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
User avatar
Vympel
Spetsnaz
Spetsnaz
Posts: 29312
Joined: 2002-07-19 01:08am
Location: Sydney Australia

Re: There are 1.3 Billion Chinese. And they want Buicks.

Post by Vympel »

Well, at least the Chinese are placing limits on new car ownership in the cities, that's something I suppose.
Like Legend of Galactic Heroes? Please contribute to http://gineipaedia.com/
User avatar
K. A. Pital
Glamorous Commie
Posts: 20813
Joined: 2003-02-26 11:39am
Location: Elysium

Re: There are 1.3 Billion Chinese. And they want Buicks.

Post by K. A. Pital »

Beijing car quotas are a good idea. Besides, China is offering a 60 000 yuan subsidy to whoever buys electromobiles and 50 000 for hybrids. I guess they are doing something, right?
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...

...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Assalti Frontali
User avatar
mr friendly guy
The Doctor
Posts: 11235
Joined: 2004-12-12 10:55pm
Location: In a 1960s police telephone box somewhere in Australia

Re: There are 1.3 Billion Chinese. And they want Buicks.

Post by mr friendly guy »

China unfortunately will be reliant on coal for the near future. However they are moving towards nuclear and renewables. Since I like nuclear I would like more countries to use it more. That being said, per capita they pollute less than us. As Swedish statistician Hans Rosling said, thats like saying China is fatter than the US because combined they outmass the US. :D

They haven't been idle in green and nuclear technology though. Currently China is number three in terms of wind power, although once 2010 figures come up it may reach number 2 or 1. Its also building lots of nuclear reactors, solar (apparently most of the solar panels sold in Australia are made in China), more efficient coal reactors (including requiring the shut down of less efficient ones), and planting lots of trees. And I mean lots, as part of their anti desertification programs.

According to Bloomberg they are the most appealing nation for wind and solar projects using the index which measures such things.
Never apologise for being a geek, because they won't apologise to you for being an arsehole. John Barrowman - 22 June 2014 Perth Supernova.

Countries I have been to - 14.
Australia, Canada, China, Colombia, Denmark, Ecuador, Finland, Germany, Malaysia, Netherlands, Norway, Singapore, Sweden, USA.
Always on the lookout for more nice places to visit.
User avatar
Fingolfin_Noldor
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11834
Joined: 2006-05-15 10:36am
Location: At the Helm of the HAB Star Dreadnaught Star Fist

Re: There are 1.3 Billion Chinese. And they want Buicks.

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Stas Bush wrote:Beijing car quotas are a good idea. Besides, China is offering a 60 000 yuan subsidy to whoever buys electromobiles and 50 000 for hybrids. I guess they are doing something, right?
They should also limit the length of ownership. Otherwise, all these subsidies won't do a thing to the massive congestion going on which is itself a source of pollution.
Image
STGOD: Byzantine Empire
Your spirit, diseased as it is, refuses to allow you to give up, no matter what threats you face... and whatever wreckage you leave behind you.
Kreia
User avatar
K. A. Pital
Glamorous Commie
Posts: 20813
Joined: 2003-02-26 11:39am
Location: Elysium

Re: There are 1.3 Billion Chinese. And they want Buicks.

Post by K. A. Pital »

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
Stas Bush wrote:Beijing car quotas are a good idea. Besides, China is offering a 60 000 yuan subsidy to whoever buys electromobiles and 50 000 for hybrids. I guess they are doing something, right?
They should also limit the length of ownership. Otherwise, all these subsidies won't do a thing to the massive congestion going on which is itself a source of pollution.
Why would you want to limit the length of ownership for electric cars, they're zero emission? Now, junk utilization programs, that is something they could do for older cars. And I think they will.
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...

...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Assalti Frontali
User avatar
Fingolfin_Noldor
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11834
Joined: 2006-05-15 10:36am
Location: At the Helm of the HAB Star Dreadnaught Star Fist

Re: There are 1.3 Billion Chinese. And they want Buicks.

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Stas Bush wrote:
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
Stas Bush wrote:Beijing car quotas are a good idea. Besides, China is offering a 60 000 yuan subsidy to whoever buys electromobiles and 50 000 for hybrids. I guess they are doing something, right?
They should also limit the length of ownership. Otherwise, all these subsidies won't do a thing to the massive congestion going on which is itself a source of pollution.
Why would you want to limit the length of ownership for electric cars, they're zero emission? Now, junk utilization programs, that is something they could do for older cars. And I think they will.
I'm referring to existing cars too. For zero emission cars, I guess they can be exempted, but they must be enforce quotas.
Image
STGOD: Byzantine Empire
Your spirit, diseased as it is, refuses to allow you to give up, no matter what threats you face... and whatever wreckage you leave behind you.
Kreia
User avatar
HankSolo
Redshirt
Posts: 9
Joined: 2010-11-10 10:36pm

Re: There are 1.3 Billion Chinese. And they want Buicks.

Post by HankSolo »

Personally I feel road/bridge tolls are better means of limiting and organizing traffic into cities. It doesn't penalize folks for the convenience of an automobile provided they make a reasonable effort to live close to their workplaces/schools/markets.
So, doesn't it feel like a never ending battle guys? Just as you start convincing some people in Europe and North America to cut their carbon footprint, the Chinese come along and negate it totally?
I’d say places like China/India are already more frugal. India's are organized for shorter commutes, bulky cars tend to be a headache to drive or park and high gas prices keep people from splurging on horsepower. China is probably similar.

Top two best selling cars in the US with mileage (Mpg highway/ city):
  • Ford F-150, 14/20
    Chevy Silverado, 15/20
Compared to China’s more sensible:
  • BYD F3, 40/(doesn’t say)
    VW Jetta, 22/30
Unless public transport is taking off in the background, Americans continue to buy low mileage vehicles and drive just as much: http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/201 ... pup-v3.jpg

Europe isn’t sacrificing much either: http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=wb- ... l=en&dl=en

There are 1.3B in the first world. And they already have Buicks :)
Traveller
Youngling
Posts: 71
Joined: 2009-01-19 05:19am

Re: There are 1.3 Billion Chinese. And they want Buicks.

Post by Traveller »

This is one thing that i find amazeing about the chinese. Despite all the data and information about the negative impacts of personal car ownership they could ever need, they rushed to embrace car-dependancy with a speed that even exceeded americas in the early 20th. Imposeing heavy taxes AFTER the fact is futile, and they could have and should seen it comeing. First, China builds a massive network of amercian style expressways, only to find they reached the equilibrium condition in record time, that is to say, bumper-to-bumper gridlock. Either chinese planners never heard of induced(latent) demand, or if that, they hired all the assholes 'traffic planners' that were out of work in North America. What is so ironic about all this is that traffic now moves at a speed which is about equal to that of the bicycles that china has now largely banned from most roads(15mph or less).

Its not too hard to find GM and Fords etc sticky fingers all over Chinas love affair with grid-lock. GM has been very active in China, they basically ruined north america and haveing found the market here saturated, its hardly suprising they have moved on to one of the few remaining major areas of the world left they havent fucked over. The speed with which western auto-companies managed to create the mess china is in, is astounding. It took GM most of a century to utterly ruin North America Aus NZ etc with there car-dependency business model, but in China, they managed to compress that down to less than 1/5th the time it took here. Here, we are (slowly) comeing around to the idea that we should get back to walking bikeing and electric mass transit as a way forward in our urban centers. China had the right idea all along with bikes, but have discarded that in favor of a ruinous car dependancy.
User avatar
Fingolfin_Noldor
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11834
Joined: 2006-05-15 10:36am
Location: At the Helm of the HAB Star Dreadnaught Star Fist

Re: There are 1.3 Billion Chinese. And they want Buicks.

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Traveller wrote:This is one thing that i find amazeing about the chinese. Despite all the data and information about the negative impacts of personal car ownership they could ever need, they rushed to embrace car-dependancy with a speed that even exceeded americas in the early 20th. Imposeing heavy taxes AFTER the fact is futile, and they could have and should seen it comeing. First, China builds a massive network of amercian style expressways, only to find they reached the equilibrium condition in record time, that is to say, bumper-to-bumper gridlock. Either chinese planners never heard of induced(latent) demand, or if that, they hired all the assholes 'traffic planners' that were out of work in North America. What is so ironic about all this is that traffic now moves at a speed which is about equal to that of the bicycles that china has now largely banned from most roads(15mph or less).

Its not too hard to find GM and Fords etc sticky fingers all over Chinas love affair with grid-lock. GM has been very active in China, they basically ruined north america and haveing found the market here saturated, its hardly suprising they have moved on to one of the few remaining major areas of the world left they havent fucked over. The speed with which western auto-companies managed to create the mess china is in, is astounding. It took GM most of a century to utterly ruin North America Aus NZ etc with there car-dependency business model, but in China, they managed to compress that down to less than 1/5th the time it took here. Here, we are (slowly) comeing around to the idea that we should get back to walking bikeing and electric mass transit as a way forward in our urban centers. China had the right idea all along with bikes, but have discarded that in favor of a ruinous car dependancy.
The Chinese did not help things anyway when they started subsidising car ownership in the bid to stimulate the economy.
Image
STGOD: Byzantine Empire
Your spirit, diseased as it is, refuses to allow you to give up, no matter what threats you face... and whatever wreckage you leave behind you.
Kreia
aieeegrunt
Jedi Knight
Posts: 512
Joined: 2009-12-23 10:14pm

Re: There are 1.3 Billion Chinese. And they want Buicks.

Post by aieeegrunt »

Buick was one of the 4 brand names GM kept alive after their restructuring purely because it's so sought after in China.
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: There are 1.3 Billion Chinese. And they want Buicks.

Post by Simon_Jester »

Traveller wrote:This is one thing that i find amazeing about the chinese. Despite all the data and information about the negative impacts of personal car ownership they could ever need, they rushed to embrace car-dependancy with a speed that even exceeded americas in the early 20th. Imposeing heavy taxes AFTER the fact is futile, and they could have and should seen it comeing. First, China builds a massive network of amercian style expressways, only to find they reached the equilibrium condition in record time, that is to say, bumper-to-bumper gridlock. Either chinese planners never heard of induced(latent) demand, or if that, they hired all the assholes 'traffic planners' that were out of work in North America. What is so ironic about all this is that traffic now moves at a speed which is about equal to that of the bicycles that china has now largely banned from most roads(15mph or less).

Its not too hard to find GM and Fords etc sticky fingers all over Chinas love affair with grid-lock. GM has been very active in China, they basically ruined north america and haveing found the market here saturated, its hardly suprising they have moved on to one of the few remaining major areas of the world left they havent fucked over. The speed with which western auto-companies managed to create the mess china is in, is astounding. It took GM most of a century to utterly ruin North America Aus NZ etc with there car-dependency business model, but in China, they managed to compress that down to less than 1/5th the time it took here. Here, we are (slowly) comeing around to the idea that we should get back to walking bikeing and electric mass transit as a way forward in our urban centers. China had the right idea all along with bikes, but have discarded that in favor of a ruinous car dependancy.
During discussions on another forum a few years back with a woman who lives in Hong Kong, we came to the conclusion that part of the problem was the collective Chinese attitude towards modernization: A modern society should look like a modern society, and the 'look' of modern societies is defined by going to places that already have it.

The US has huge highways and is very modern. Therefore, if China wishes to become modern, it must have huge highways! The US does not have millions of cyclists in its inner cities, therefore cycling is un-modern and to be banned!

It's on par with, say, Peter the Great demanding that the Russian aristocracy shave off their beards, or Kemal Ataturk imposing 'westernized' cultural templates onto Turkey.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
Post Reply