protecting the earth (government vs)

[Stark]

Yeah, the MiB (again) don't have xyz pew pew spaceships because the Earth is protected by treaty, which they administer.

[Gunhead]

Even if discounting obvious game mechanics, there's a timeline published for the XCOM which states the first alien war went on from 1998 to 2002. It's from the XCOM interceptor, so I have no direct knowledge how accurate it is. If true it took just four years to reverse engineer and gain enough knowledge to not only learn how to operate, but also produce critical equipment giving us parity and sometimes improving on the alien designs. The only thing that cannot be reproduced by XCOM is elerium, as it's not found on earth.

I'm still with XCOM, plasma guns and power armor all the way.

-Gunhead

[FaxModem1]

EDIT - since you repeat the broken logic WRT to SG1, I'm going to use small words. In SG1, they seriously take as much action as they can to PREVENT acquiring technology as possible while exploring. Expecting this to occur in a far higher-threat situation (hell even with a single Kaiju running around SG1 would have a much stronger need for pew pews) with even MORE access to technology is stupid. SG1 has shown that when required they can adopt or be shown how to adopt frankly ridiculous technology, and simpleminded shit like 'lol the first year of being attacked by everyone they'll do exactly what they did in S1 on TV' should embarrass you just saying it.

Now, I'm not really understanding you, could you explain what you mean when you say SG1 worked to prevent themselves from acquiring technology? I thought the whole point of the show was the team trying to acquire alien technology and fighting the Goa'uld.

[adam_grif]

I assume he's being snarky about SG1's (Jackson in particular) moralizing.

[TOSDOC]

I don't know a thing about Stargate or XCOM, but if MIB were in liason with the British UNIT that could call on The Doctor and Torchwood, they've got my vote.

[Stark]

I assume he's being snarky about SG1's (Jackson in particular) moralizing.

Fuckoff, shithead. Their entire approach from refusing aid from alien worlds to their need for secrecy retards their ability to acquire technology. If (say) they were in an XCOM situation where hardware was falling from the sky, Carter would have worked out how it worked in 4 minutes in season 1 instead of season whatever. It's childish to say THINGS WILL HAPPEN LIKE IN THE SHOW without understanding why it happened that way.

Since nobody bothers to actually establish the effectiveness of XCOM weapons, their apparent 'amazing' tech development isn't really. Fighterbourne plasma cannons canonically do zero structural damage to the flying boxes they hit, for instance.

[Bakustra]

Even if discounting obvious game mechanics, there's a timeline published for the XCOM which states the first alien war went on from 1998 to 2002. It's from the XCOM interceptor, so I have no direct knowledge how accurate it is. If true it took just four years to reverse engineer and gain enough knowledge to not only learn how to operate, but also produce critical equipment giving us parity and sometimes improving on the alien designs. The only thing that cannot be reproduced by XCOM is elerium, as it's not found on earth.

I'm still with XCOM, plasma guns and power armor all the way.

-Gunhead

Except that we don't know how effective said weapons and armor are, without resorting to game mechanics that make them relatively pathetic. It took them four years... but most of the research in XCOM is just "pick up gun", "spend week figuring out how to fire and load gun", then "take gun apart, mimic parts, put back together in human-looking shell." Remember that you had to research each size of weapon separately, which suggests that they don't really understand the principles behind a plasma rifle or fusion-ball launcher well enough to develop their own variations rather than just plug n' play.

The Firestorm and Lightning being essentially UFOs rebuilt for human occupants only supports that, and the same for indeed everything up to the Avenger (and the Avenger could just be a sign of them learning how to mimic the hull alloys rather than a deep understanding of the principles).

While they did have a decent understanding by Apocalypse and Interceptor, there were almost two centuries between XCOM and TFTD and those two games in which they could develop better understanding of the principles involved, which is hardly a case of XCOM being comprised of geniuses.

[Stark]

Its remarkable, really, that the alien technology was so simplistic that a few guys in a shed could reproduce stuff like their powerplants essentially by hand in a few man-months. Their ships were simply 'put powerplant in hull, use gravito-magnets to fly'. Of course, in TFTD if you didn't ask a deep one questions the entire XCOM research attempt ground to an ignomious halt.

[Bakustra]

Its remarkable, really, that the alien technology was so simplistic that a few guys in a shed could reproduce stuff like their powerplants essentially by hand in a few man-months. Their ships were simply 'put powerplant in hull, use gravito-magnets to fly'. Of course, in TFTD if you didn't ask a deep one questions the entire XCOM research attempt ground to an ignomious halt.

Remember, it had to be one specific type of deep one, or else you could never finish the game, fighting endless hordes of alien subs, unable to find T'leth off the coast of Florida. More evidence of XCOM incompetence!

I'm not sure that they really "reproduced" the powerplants. Remember that it was much cheaper to salvage than to build? "Canonically", they could have just salvaged engines for all the UFOs they rebuilt and operated mostly using the starting fighters. Just like how in my personal canon, 50% of XCOM operatives suffered accidental self-inflicted injuries.

[Gunhead]

Except that we don't know how effective said weapons and armor are, without resorting to game mechanics that make them relatively pathetic. It took them four years... but most of the research in XCOM is just "pick up gun", "spend week figuring out how to fire and load gun", then "take gun apart, mimic parts, put back together in human-looking shell." Remember that you had to research each size of weapon separately, which suggests that they don't really understand the principles behind a plasma rifle or fusion-ball launcher well enough to develop their own variations rather than just plug n' play.

The Firestorm and Lightning being essentially UFOs rebuilt for human occupants only supports that, and the same for indeed everything up to the Avenger (and the Avenger could just be a sign of them learning how to mimic the hull alloys rather than a deep understanding of the principles).

While they did have a decent understanding by Apocalypse and Interceptor, there were almost two centuries between XCOM and TFTD and those two games in which they could develop better understanding of the principles involved, which is hardly a case of XCOM being comprised of geniuses.

Since where keeping out of game mechanics this is just a matter of opinion really. I think being able to reverse engineer an anti-matter reactor, make it small enough to put into an armored suit to power it in less than four years is pretty impressive. Even if those early UFO type aircraft are just copied from the aliens, they still outperform them quite often in both weaponry and speed. Fusion Ball launcher is a built up version of the blaster launcher and as far as I know the aliens do not possess a similar weapon. Having so few hard numbers to put on XCOM weaponry makes a direct comparison pretty impossible to do, maybe the novel would give out more numbers. I don't really care though, I think four years from an underdog to kicking ass on mars is not too shabby a feat.

-Gunhead

[Stark]

PS it's not antimatter. The UFOs are outperformed because they are perhaps the worst design imaginable, being flying barns.

And 4 years from underdog to kicking moronic idiot ass with the moronic idiot's own guns is a bit less remarkable.

[Bakustra]

Except that we don't know how effective said weapons and armor are, without resorting to game mechanics that make them relatively pathetic. It took them four years... but most of the research in XCOM is just "pick up gun", "spend week figuring out how to fire and load gun", then "take gun apart, mimic parts, put back together in human-looking shell." Remember that you had to research each size of weapon separately, which suggests that they don't really understand the principles behind a plasma rifle or fusion-ball launcher well enough to develop their own variations rather than just plug n' play.

The Firestorm and Lightning being essentially UFOs rebuilt for human occupants only supports that, and the same for indeed everything up to the Avenger (and the Avenger could just be a sign of them learning how to mimic the hull alloys rather than a deep understanding of the principles).

While they did have a decent understanding by Apocalypse and Interceptor, there were almost two centuries between XCOM and TFTD and those two games in which they could develop better understanding of the principles involved, which is hardly a case of XCOM being comprised of geniuses.

Since where keeping out of game mechanics this is just a matter of opinion really. I think being able to reverse engineer an anti-matter reactor, make it small enough to put into an armored suit to power it in less than four years is pretty impressive. Even if those early UFO type aircraft are just copied from the aliens, they still outperform them quite often in both weaponry and speed. Fusion Ball launcher is a built up version of the blaster launcher and as far as I know the aliens do not possess a similar weapon. Having so few hard numbers to put on XCOM weaponry makes a direct comparison pretty impossible to do, maybe the novel would give out more numbers. I don't really care though, I think four years from an underdog to kicking ass on mars is not too shabby a feat.

-Gunhead

The aliens don't have laser weapons either. Being able to build a giant blaster bomb isn't all that impressive, especially if you simplify the avionics. Keep in mind that they outperform them in weaponry because the aliens don't arm their ships heavily. Only Battleships are really warships, and battleships, terror ships, and supply ships are quite dangerous until you get plasma weaponry (you also can't actually destroy any of those ships either). The suits don't really have to have miniaturized power sources (quite apart from what Elerium power sources actually do) because they can just use Elerium batteries like those for the laser weapons, which are already miniaturized enough to fit into a pistol.

[Stark]

Air-to-air combat only works because the plasma cannon is huge ammo and long range - they 'fixed' this in TFTD. But most people don't even play UFO on normal so they don't know how difficult interceptions are and how many you just have to let go because they're too dangerous.

[Gunhead]

PS it's not antimatter. The UFOs are outperformed because they are perhaps the worst design imaginable, being flying barns.

And 4 years from underdog to kicking moronic idiot ass with the moronic idiot's own guns is a bit less remarkable.

Game disagrees with you "The power source of alien craft is an anti-matter reactor which uses elerium to generate powerful gravity waves as well as other forms of energy."
Again, say what you will. They're barns that can manage interplanetary travel and can achieve speeds of 5000km/h inside an atmosphere and have directed energy weapons with a max range of 62km.
So what if they're stupid, I don't see the Goauld (or what ever they're called) winning any nobel prizes either. I mean fuck, they fly around in pyramids. Then again.... they do have a booming voice of doom, so that has to score them some villain points. But XCOM aliens have alien porn.... Hmm.... Maybe if Goauld we're to receive a shipment of alien porn from the sectoids, they'd stop being so anal about everything....

-Gunhead

[Stark]

The Gouald at least have FTL and a space empire, instead of just being a bunch of jokers in a bunker on Mars. Comparing the two is ridiculous. The XCOM firespray etc are 'better' in that not being barns, they can go faster. This is pretty obvious.

Since Elerium is the fuel, and elerium isn't antimatter, where's the antimatter again? Antimatter isn't even mentioned in the game; only elerium. Oops. And the super-guns of the aliens don't even visibly damage ships; perhaps the 'plasma' just interferes with their computers, causing a crash.

[Agent Sorchus]

Unfortunately stark XCom and their enemies do have FTL, even if it is "slower." Interceptor is set in a region of space 100 lightyears from earth. SO while it isn't stargate levels of impressive it is there.

Also you evidently never read the game's encyclopedia did you?

Right there mention of antimatter. So quiet down.

[Stark]

Fuckoff, shithead. It says it generates 'anti matter power', whatever the fuck that is, when the ELERIUM is bombarded with certain particles. No anti-matter is involved.

And interceptor is HUNDREDS OF YEARS LATER, and they sure didn't learn that in a month. Oops!

[Gunhead]

The Gouald at least have FTL and a space empire, instead of just being a bunch of jokers in a bunker on Mars. Comparing the two is ridiculous. The XCOM firespray etc are 'better' in that not being barns, they can go faster. This is pretty obvious.

Since Elerium is the fuel, and elerium isn't antimatter, where's the antimatter again? Antimatter isn't even mentioned in the game; only elerium. Oops. And the super-guns of the aliens don't even visibly damage ships; perhaps the 'plasma' just interferes with their computers, causing a crash.

Since you obviously don't have a copy of XCOM, I kindly quoted the first sentence from the ufopedia where it states "The power source of alien craft is an anti-matter reactor which uses elerium to generate powerful gravity waves as well as other forms of energy." So maybe the reactor makes antimatter from the elerium, I really don't know, but antimatter sure as shit is mentioned in the game. Elerium-115 "This element has the unusual property of generating anti-matter power when bombarded with certain particles. This creates gravity waves and other forms of energy. It is not naturally found in our solar system and cannot be reproduced." Oh, ooops. I do know.
For someone wailing against game mechanics, you do like to bring them up. So we don't get a visible representation of ufo getting damaged, but we do get one if a earth craft is damaged so yeah, ufo weapons do real damage. I have never said anything about how powerful the alien weaponry is as we have no real way of knowing.

Oh, Bakustra, earth lasers do not require elerium and researching the alien power source is a requirement for powered armor which would heavily imply it's vital to powering them. In addition, as I said before, neither you or me really know how big the technical obstacles are when it comes to alien technology, I'd say from the speed and ease they were solved they're a lot less than we'd expect, but I still rank them as impressive feats. You may not but since there's little to go by aside from the overall timeframe, debating this issue seems to be bit pointless.

-Gunhead

[Stark]

You get a visual representation of player vehicle damage, now? You mean a hitpoint display?

And it really isn't my fault if you think 'generates antimatter power' means 'uses antimatter'. The Elerium has a STRANGE PROPERTY of generating 'antimatter power' when bombarded with particles. It wouldn't be very fucking strange if the elerium or the particles were antimatter, would it? Use your goddamn brain.

Only the XCOM fanboys are claiming that the feats of research XCOM complete are impressive; it's just as easy to say (as people often do about the Stargate universe) that the technology is simply very easy to understand. Since everything in UFO is based on elerium, and elerium has extremely high energy densities (comparable to antimatter), and magically floats by itself, that's seriously much of alien tech explained at a single stroke.

[Bakustra]

The Gouald at least have FTL and a space empire, instead of just being a bunch of jokers in a bunker on Mars. Comparing the two is ridiculous. The XCOM firespray etc are 'better' in that not being barns, they can go faster. This is pretty obvious.

Since Elerium is the fuel, and elerium isn't antimatter, where's the antimatter again? Antimatter isn't even mentioned in the game; only elerium. Oops. And the super-guns of the aliens don't even visibly damage ships; perhaps the 'plasma' just interferes with their computers, causing a crash.

Since you obviously don't have a copy of XCOM, I kindly quoted the first sentence from the ufopedia where it states "The power source of alien craft is an anti-matter reactor which uses elerium to generate powerful gravity waves as well as other forms of energy." So maybe the reactor makes antimatter from the elerium, I really don't know, but antimatter sure as shit is mentioned in the game. Elerium-115 "This element has the unusual property of generating anti-matter power when bombarded with certain particles. This creates gravity waves and other forms of energy. It is not naturally found in our solar system and cannot be reproduced." Oh, ooops. I do know.
For someone wailing against game mechanics, you do like to bring them up. So we don't get a visible representation of ufo getting damaged, but we do get one if a earth craft is damaged so yeah, ufo weapons do real damage. I have never said anything about how powerful the alien weaponry is as we have no real way of knowing.

Oh, Bakustra, earth lasers do not require elerium and researching the alien power source is a requirement for powered armor which would heavily imply it's vital to powering them. In addition, as I said before, neither you or me really know how big the technical obstacles are when it comes to alien technology, I'd say from the speed and ease they were solved they're a lot less than we'd expect, but I still rank them as impressive feats. You may not but since there's little to go by aside from the overall timeframe, debating this issue seems to be bit pointless.

-Gunhead

The larger UFOs can't be destroyed outright by XCOM weaponry. Game mechanics are not literal, but one can assume that, for example, plasma weapons are more damaging than laser weapons using the game even though the in-game numbers are not accurate. So too with large UFOs being indestructible.

The technical obstacles... you have to research each weapon separately. That implies that they don't know how a plasma gun works, just how to duplicate one in a human-built shell, and the same with everything else besides maybe the Avenger.

You need to research the alien power source... but that doesn't mean that the powerplants themselves are miniaturized, especially since there are still things like plasma clips that produce energy but are far smaller than a powerplant, and a power suit probably requires less power than a full UFO.

EDIT: Sentences.

[Stark]

The 'UFO powerplant' is probably the shit required to create flight, not just an 'elerium reactor'. They're not used for anything else, but elerium is a ubiquitous fuel which is trivial to handle.

[Gunhead]

If going to nitpicky about it, I for one cannot fucking fathom why make some wild assumption weapons mounted on space ships don't do physical damage. Our missiles and autocannons do physical damage. Nowhere is it implied or suggested that plasma weapons which by all assumption the ufo weapons are have a totally different damage mechanism. Hand held plasma weapons kill people dead by making holes to them it's reasonable to assume the bigger versions work in similar fashion, now unless you have some evidence to point to the contrary, produce it.

If it's an anti-matter reactor with an fuel source saying anti-matter power, I assume they mean it's an anti-matter reactor with added nifty features. It's not a fucking coal plant or a nuclear reactor, I'd think they'd make the difference. By the very least it has to have something to do with antimatter, one way or the other.

You opinion on XCOM research is just as relevant as mine. I told Bakustra what I'm telling you. We have a time frame and we know roughly what was accomplished in that time period, you don't seem to hold these accomplishments in high regard, I think they're pretty impressive. If this makes me a "XCOM fanboy" to you then here is me not giving a fuck.

-Gunhead

[Stark]

If going to nitpicky about it, I for one cannot fucking fathom why make some wild assumption weapons mounted on space ships don't do physical damage. Our missiles and autocannons do physical damage. Nowhere is it implied or suggested that plasma weapons which by all assumption the ufo weapons are have a totally different damage mechanism. Hand held plasma weapons kill people dead by making holes to them it's reasonable to assume the bigger versions work in similar fashion, now unless you have some evidence to point to the contrary, produce it.

How about 'because the only damage ever shown in the games is from internal explosions'? How do you even know plasma weapons make holes in people? It's very likely that they do not.

If it's an anti-matter reactor with an fuel source saying anti-matter power, I assume they mean it's an anti-matter reactor with added nifty features. It's not a fucking coal plant or a nuclear reactor, I'd think they'd make the difference. By the very least it has to have something to do with antimatter, one way or the other.

So your conclusion (that it is an anti-matter reactor) is your evidence (that it is an anti-matter reactor)? There is NO MENTION OF ANTIMATTER. It produces 'antimatter power', but does not use antimatter - it uses elerium, a normal matter elemental substance, and 'particles'. It is STRANGE that it produces this power. It is not TOTALLY FUCKING PREDICTABLE BECAUSE ITS ANTIMATTER.

You opinion on XCOM research is just as relevant as mine. I told Bakustra what I'm telling you. We have a time frame and we know roughly what was accomplished in that time period, you don't seem to hold these accomplishments in high regard, I think they're pretty impressive. If this makes me a "XCOM fanboy" to you then here is me not giving a fuck.

-Gunhead

Actually, mine is based on the game as it stands, not the game I imagine in my head cause I'm a fanboy. If elerium powerplants are 'antimatter powerplants', why is elerium the fuel and not antimatter? Why is antimatter never, ever mentioned? Why is elerium isolated as the limiting factor? Please note (because you're stupid and I have to highlight this) that it is quite likely these powerplants produce very high energy levels, and probably approach the 'antimatter power' densities. There just ain't any antimatter in there (unless you're going to claim elerium is antimatter now).

It's been shown that you think they're impressive because you're massively overstating what they are. Even 'going to Mars' is just 'turn on elerium powerplant and hang on'. Their weapons are scavenged from the dead. I'm fucking amazed.

[Gunhead]

Well, the tech tree is also pretty much gamemechanicy. You also don't have to research every plasma gun to get plasma cannons, just the heavy plasma. Elerium is the magic fuel so it's not unreasonable to assume researching the reactor that it fuels makes it possible to either make very small reactors or convert some other elerium using device into a battery of sorts or maybe build one directly using elerium.

-Gunhead

[Stark]

Sure, but outside of that there's little way to judge their effectiveness; so its a choice between 'meh' and 'who knows', not OMG SO AWEOSME.