Chinese "Businessman" bids for HMS Invincible

[MKSheppard]

Link

Gutted, defanged and now up for sale, HMS Invincible may soon be towed to China and berthed near a "lovers' promenade" in waters the Royal Navy dominated during the opium war.

A UK-based Chinese businessman, Lam Kin-bong, has bid £5m for the decommissioned aircraft carrier, which he wants to turn into a floating international school in a new marina on the coast of Guangdong province.

If the bid – first reported in the South China Morning Post — is successful, the voyage east of the 17,000 tonnes of scrap warship would be one of the most dramatic symbols yet of the shift in economic and military power from west to east.

For Britain and China, the differing fortunes are increasingly stark. In its recent spending review, the UK government slashed the defence budget and announced the navy would be without an aircraft carrier capable of carrying jets for around a decade. The Ark Royal will be decommissioned this month.

China, by contrast, has been increasing military spending at a double-digit pace for more than a decade and is believed to be building its first aircraft carrier, with plans for at least four more over the next 20 years.

Even the US is concerned. Reports earlier this week suggest China is close to test-flying a new stealth fighter jet and has operational capability with a "carrier killer" anti-ship ballistic missile.

The fate of the Invincible is likely to be symbolic rather than strategic. The light aircraft carrier was decommissioned in 2005, after 28 years of active service, including action during conflicts in Iraq, Yugoslavia and the Falklands. Now stripped of its engines, armaments and technology, the 500-metre-long hull was put up for auction last month by the Disposal Services Agency.

Its proposed new home is in Zhuhai, part of a province formerly known as Canton that was the beachhead for British opium dealers after the trade was forced on China by the Royal Navy.

Several bids were reportedly made before the deadline on 5 January. The Ministry of Defence has yet to respond to requests for details of rival offers.

The £5m bid by Lam – made through his company Sunway Yacht Ltd, which is based in his birthplace, Zhuhai, Guangdong province – is considerably higher than the £2m that had been expected. Towing the vessel to the other side of the world and refurbishing it as a school is likely to cost another £6m.

Whether the deal is approved is another matter, given the European Union's arms embargo against China, and Beijing's past use of second-hand carriers.

In 1998, a Hong Kong firm won a Ukrainian navy auction for the old Soviet carrier Varyag, claiming that it would be used as a floating casino off Macau. Instead, it is being upgraded at China's Dalian naval shipyard, fitted with combat sensors and defensive weapons, and painted in the colours of the People's Liberation Army. Military analysts say it is likely to go back into service.

It would be harder to use the Invincible in the same way as it has been more thoroughly stripped. China has bought two other Soviet carriers – the Minsk and the Kiev – which are merely attractions.

Lam, who moved to London nearly 20 years ago and has since set up the the Wing Wah chain of restaurants in Birmingham, said suspicions were unfounded.

"My intentions are purely commercial and have nothing to do with the military. We are building a marina in Zhuhai and if my bid is successful our first option is to berth the carrier there and convert it into an international school to help foster communication and cultural ties between China and Britain," he told the South China Morning Post.

If permission to tow the vessel to China is withheld, Lam said he would dock it in Liverpool and turn it into a school "to boost the understanding of China and the Chinese in Britain". He said he had the support of the Chinese embassy in the UK.

[Stark]

So... what? Are you afraid the Chinese will steal England's 'fucking horrible carrier' technology? Or are we surprised an industrial nation of more than a billion has more money than a dirty little island?

[MKSheppard]

Not afraid, just amused at the whole thing.

[PainRack]

I'm going to echo Sheppard amusement at this too.

The mere fact that Britain, former mistress of the seas, who with the Americans guranteed the Chinese trade and Asiatic waters is now selling defunct warships to China is an....interesting trend.

Enough to make one wonders if this is a true business proposal or a stunt by a nationalistic faction for PR purposes back in China.

[Aaron]

Wait...what?

It's a gutted and useless vessel, you can't even consider it a warship anymore. Maybe if it was a ship that had actually participated in the opium wars, I could see the humour. This is just...big fucking deal?

[Stark]

They're not selling it; someone is offering to buy it. What, should the UK keep it around or sell it to the breakers for less, because of a brutal and racist bit of imperialism a century ago? How is this ship even connected?

I guess I'm just too immune to nationalism to see the big deal. Japan bought ships from England all the time. OH SNAP!

[Aaron]

Yeah instead of selling her off for scrap, she'll be turned into a school. They even got an offer of three million pounds over what they expected. Pretty good deal for the UK if you ask me.

[Zaune]

Wouldn't have expected the Guardian of all papers to be lamenting the appalling state of our force-projection capabilities.

[MKSheppard]

As for what I expect?

The moment she arrives in China, she won't go to Zhuhai; but instead to the same area where the Crapyrag is being refitted. She will then undergo a...thorough investigation before being released to become a floating casino school.

Despite being a stripped hulk, there's a lot the Chinese can learn from her, specifically what NOT to do.

[Steel]

the 500-metre-long hull

Eeer what? 500 feet perhaps? Pretty shoddy reporting overall.

[K. A. Pital]

As for what I expect?

The moment she arrives in China, she won't go to Zhuhai; but instead to the same area where the Crapyrag is being refitted. She will then undergo a...thorough investigation before being released to become a floating casino school.

Despite being a stripped hulk, there's a lot the Chinese can learn from her, specifically what NOT to do.

"Crapyrag"? The Kuznetzov is a reasonably well-made project compared to the Kievs. And the Indians are buying the Kiev not as a casino piece.

[mr friendly guy]

Wait...what?

It's a gutted and useless vessel, you can't even consider it a warship anymore. Maybe if it was a ship that had actually participated in the opium wars, I could see the humour. This is just...big fucking deal?

1. If nationalists are doing it, they don't think the same way others do

2. Dude, even I can see the humour in it. Its less about the ship itself, the ship is just a symbol. Its more to do with the state of British affairs. To elaborate, back in the day they could fund a fleet to enter Chinese waters. Now the only way the ship is entering China is if the other side funds the towing services and pay the British for the ship. (This assumes of course they do sell it to that HK businessman).

On another note, I wonder if I was the only one who saw the irony of Chinese businesses selling um, plant food to British druggies.

[PainRack]

Wait...what?

It's a gutted and useless vessel, you can't even consider it a warship anymore. Maybe if it was a ship that had actually participated in the opium wars, I could see the humour. This is just...big fucking deal?

Really? The idea that Chinese businessmen are rich enough to buy a British/Western warship, a derelict SYMBOL of British power is amusing.

Wealth = power.

[Tanasinn]

Jest aside, I could see Brit nationalists potentially getting hot under the collar about one of their warships being bought to be a glorified toy in China.

[Stark]

Really? The idea that Chinese businessmen are rich enough to buy a British/Western warship, a derelict SYMBOL of British power is amusing.

Wealth = power.

I guess all those American businessmen with enough money to buy US warships are pretty funny too, then?

Since this is business, he almost certainly simply build a business case and raised capital the usual way; what makes you think he's buying it from his personal cash monies? More to the point, why should anyone care if someone buys an old, shit, stripped-down military vessel? I guess all those breaker companies are THE SECRET GOVERNMENT!

[Chaotic Neutral]

Since this is business, he almost certainly simply build a business case and raised capital the usual way; what makes you think he's buying it from his personal cash monies? More to the point, why should anyone care if someone buys an old, shit, stripped-down military vessel? I guess all those breaker companies are THE SECRET GOVERNMENT!

But...but..but... They're Communist...

[mr friendly guy]

I guess all those American businessmen with enough money to buy US warships are pretty funny too, then?

Is that supposed to be a serious counter argument.

Since this is business, he almost certainly simply build a business case and raised capital the usual way; what makes you think he's buying it from his personal cash monies?

Considering James Packer's house costs more than this, its not that big a stretch that a rich dude can buy this using their personal assets. In any event, why should it matter if he borrowed the money from a bank? Not even the banks which engage in the subprime debacle will lend you or I that much money even if we came up with the same business plan. Assuming he isn't some joker, Mr Lam is wealthy and loaded.

More to the point, why should anyone care if someone buys an old, shit, stripped-down military vessel? I guess all those breaker companies are THE SECRET GOVERNMENT!

If you read the article you would know from a strategic POV it speculates the British might care because of the EU arms embargo. Note the article seems to feel that the purchase overall is symbolic only. Otherwise the only other person who thinks it has strategical implications is Shep. But he is Shep.

As I said earlier, its not so much that China may get hold of a British vessel, its that Britain is finding it hard to fund its military whilst a private Chinese citizen can afford to turn used British vessels into a school.

[PainRack]

I guess all those American businessmen with enough money to buy US warships are pretty funny too, then?

Since this is business, he almost certainly simply build a business case and raised capital the usual way; what makes you think he's buying it from his personal cash monies? More to the point, why should anyone care if someone buys an old, shit, stripped-down military vessel? I guess all those breaker companies are THE SECRET GOVERNMENT!

You're a POS Stark.

Let's start with the business case shall we? Will a crazy ass business proposal, meant more for prestige or etc never make it past bankers? Geez. Dubai golf course island/hotel must be REAL sensible, right?

And why should anyone care? Do you seriously think I'm commenting on this because I want the British to REJECT such a deal? No. I'm amused by the symbolic meaning of this, enough to speculate as to whether the businessman is doing this more for a PR stunt as opposed to him thining that he could really make the carrier into a floating school.


I mean seriously. Are you fucking thick enough that one cannot possible consider that the Chinese businessman is doing this as a personal stunt?

The nationalist frenzy arrived quickly. As soon as Chinese art collector Cai Mingchao refused to pay for two bronze sculptures for which he had successfully bid $40 million at a Christie’s auction, China’s newspapers, Internet chat rooms and blogs rushed to crown him the country’s new national hero. In the view of numerous Chinese citizens, including Mr. Cai, the artworks were looted from China by European powers in the 19th century and should be returned to China, for free. The Chinese government agrees.
Geez. Another businessman pulling off such a stunt just a few years back.

In the interests of accuracy, I should point out that Cai is rumoured not to have been able to buy the artifacts and received notice that it would have been illegal to bring said bronze artifacts back to China. However, nothing of course detracts from the fact that he did attempt to buy said artifacts because he felt it would have been right to belong to Chinese as opposed to foreign hands, and he DID pull off said stunt regarding looting don't need pay.

Edit: I found it funny when J P Morgan saved New York City finance too. Does that mean I didn't want Morgan to save the banking industry or I think he's financed by some socialist/communist plot?

[Shroom Man 777]

Man, Strak, I love you, but I don't get what you're going on at PainRack for. He's just saying that he finds it amusing, man.

[Stark]

You're a POS Stark.

Irrelevant.

Let's start with the business case shall we? Will a crazy ass business proposal, meant more for prestige or etc never make it past bankers? Geez. Dubai golf course island/hotel must be REAL sensible, right?

So you represent the entire capital market, now?

And why should anyone care? Do you seriously think I'm commenting on this because I want the British to REJECT such a deal? No. I'm amused by the symbolic meaning of this, enough to speculate as to whether the businessman is doing this more for a PR stunt as opposed to him thining that he could really make the carrier into a floating school.

The symbolic meaning of you not noticing English power largely disappeared 70 years ago? This is no surprise to the British, since they've been sensibly drawing down their defence budget for decades.

I mean seriously. Are you fucking thick enough that one cannot possible consider that the Chinese businessman is doing this as a personal stunt?

Are you fucking thick enough to think there aren't reasons unrelated to MOG TEH OPIUM WARZ?

The nationalist frenzy arrived quickly. As soon as Chinese art collector Cai Mingchao refused to pay for two bronze sculptures for which he had successfully bid $40 million at a Christie’s auction, China’s newspapers, Internet chat rooms and blogs rushed to crown him the country’s new national hero. In the view of numerous Chinese citizens, including Mr. Cai, the artworks were looted from China by European powers in the 19th century and should be returned to China, for free. The Chinese government agrees.
Geez. Another businessman pulling off such a stunt just a few years back.

And yet you say there is no business case for a refurbished British carrier?

In the interests of accuracy, I should point out that Cai is rumoured not to have been able to buy the artifacts and received notice that it would have been illegal to bring said bronze artifacts back to China. However, nothing of course detracts from the fact that he did attempt to buy said artifacts because he felt it would have been right to belong to Chinese as opposed to foreign hands, and he DID pull off said stunt regarding looting don't need pay.

Needs more irrelevance.

Edit: I found it funny when J P Morgan saved New York City finance too. Does that mean I didn't want Morgan to save the banking industry or I think he's financed by some socialist/communist plot?

I have no idea where you're getting these strawmen. They're nice, though.

Okay Shroom, I'll join in on the herp derp someone bought a boat bandwagon. I'll try to forget that China is a massive, growing economy and that Britain has struggled with money and defence spending in particular for ages, and pretend that this is a mighty slap in the face for OLD BLIGHTY and I dunno white pride or something, and isn't a creative and profitable way of disposing of an unwanted asset.

[Shroom Man 777]

I think everyone here knows that China is very rich and the UK is selling everything short of the fillings in Queen Elizabeth's teeth to stay afloat. Doesn't make it any less funny though.

[Stark]

It'd be funny if it was like in Robocop, where the Queen had to go on ebay to flog off the Royal Navy to pay American war debt or something. Selling scrap to someone lacks a little of that flair. Hell, the British sold AU the Melbourne way back when; what a laff riot that was.

[Shroom Man 777]

Well, yeah, it's just scrap and guise are attributing meanings to it and so on and so forth and symbolisms when it's just that, a piece of scrap. But the fact that it's a former aircraft carrier, now a hunk of junk, and China is buying that hunk of junk and has been buying other junked aircraft carriers because it's planning to have carriers maybe, while the UK is in financial woes whilst China is developing its military, that is a pretty amusing inversion of a TVtroposphere or whatever. Taken on its own, that scrapped aircraft carrier is pretty insignificant, yeah. But in the larger picture, China becoming an emerging superpower or whatever while the UK and other Western powers have been laid low - after centuries of imperialistic hubris and vanity and self-styled superiority, they are know groveling and reaping what they sow and so forth - is a pretty gratifying sight. One can't help but be optimistic for the future where the gaijin end up choking on China's Peking duck.

[weemadando]

Am I misreading this thread or has no one down the whole Falkland's 2.0 fearmongering yet? Can't sell carriers because then the Argies will have free reign!!

[Stark]

Well, yeah, it's just scrap and guise are attributing meanings to it and so on and so forth and symbolisms when it's just that, a piece of scrap. But the fact that it's a former aircraft carrier, now a hunk of junk, and China is buying that hunk of junk and has been buying other junked aircraft carriers because it's planning to have carriers maybe, while the UK is in financial woes whilst China is developing its military, that is a pretty amusing inversion of a TVtroposphere or whatever. Taken on its own, that scrapped aircraft carrier is pretty insignificant, yeah. But in the larger picture, China becoming an emerging superpower or whatever while the UK and other Western powers have been laid low - after centuries of imperialistic hubris and vanity and self-styled superiority, they are know groveling and reaping what they sow and so forth - is a pretty gratifying sight. One can't help but be optimistic for the future where the gaijin end up choking on China's Peking duck.

Personally, I blame the unions. If it was an in-service or even decent carrier I could see the importance, but it sucked from the day it was built. Like Shep says, all the foolish commies will learn is a whole bunch of stuff never to do.

It would be way funnier if it was America.