A fundie declares misfortune is God's plan

Post by **AdmiralKanos** » 2003-02-22 01:45pm

That old quote about God being either callous or impotent comes to mind. If God has the power to stop cruelty and suffering, then his failure to do so is callousness. If he lacks the power, then he is no God. This "free will" excuse is bullshit; it is perfectly possible to allow free will but also punish evildoers and prevent crimes (that is, in fact, precisely what our laws and police systems are designed to do).

Sektor31 · Post by **Sektor31** » 2003-02-22 02:11pm

Neko001 wrote:*cough* No.

Sure, you're all atheists here, and you're gonna bash me for this, but here goes.
[Flame shield on]

What I believe is God basically created the world with random functions every now and them, say volcanoes, earthquakes, etc., and just created Adam and Eve. What goes on after that is completely our fault.

That's deism isn't it? It's a whole lot more believable than a "God" creating everything out of nowhere and decides to intervene in things every now and then.

I have a scenario to propose to you all. What would you do if you were a doctor, just saved a patient in a 5-6 hour operation involving the heart, and the patient says it was God's will he survived?

Arrow · Post by **Arrow** » 2003-02-22 05:15pm

I have a scenario to propose to you all. What would you do if you were a doctor, just saved a patient in a 5-6 hour operation involving the heart, and the patient says it was God's will he survived?

Double the bill.

Gotta love religion, it takes all the critical thinking out of life.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-02-22 05:31pm

AdmiralKanos wrote:That old quote about God being either callous or impotent comes to mind. If God has the power to stop cruelty and suffering, then his failure to do so is callousness. If he lacks the power, then he is no God. This "free will" excuse is bullshit; it is perfectly possible to allow free will but also punish evildoers and prevent crimes (that is, in fact, precisely what our laws and police systems are designed to do).

That would be the riddle of Epicurus:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2003-02-23 01:53am

So that's the full quote. I'll have to commit it to memory.

For the doctor question, why settle for doubling the bill? Triple it. Or, you could accidently slip rat poison into his IV, but that's a little risky.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-02-23 03:42am

Darth Yoshi wrote:So that's the full quote. I'll have to commit it to memory.

For the doctor question, why settle for doubling the bill? Triple it. Or, you could accidently slip rat poison into his IV, but that's a little risky.

Triple it if he's Catholic. They believe in a Trinity, so all three gods should have no problem footing the same bill separately.

Neko001 · Post by **Neko001** » 2003-02-23 11:44pm

Doctor matter : double the bill.

AdmiralKanos: There are so many beliefs of what God does/did/did not do/will do, etc. that it would be pointless to back it up. No living person here knows God.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-02-23 11:47pm

Neko001 wrote:AdmiralKanos: There are so many beliefs of what God does/did/did not do/will do, etc. that it would be pointless to back it up. No living person here knows God.

Funny how you still claim to know what he's done though.

viperpilot · Post by **viperpilot** » 2003-02-25 08:09pm

maybe he and the ambasador guy should join forces

sick. if there is a god then he's good and bad comes from satan. true that perhaps god can use bad things for the better, but to say that he causes the bad in the first place so that he can do the good, well that's just wrong. fundies. make me sick.

Post by **LadyTevar** » 2003-02-25 08:35pm

Darth Utsanomiko wrote:
Alex Moon wrote:I love it when I hear fundies use this arguement, because it leaves only two options. If everything is a part of God's plan, then God is either incompetent or sadistic. How else would you explain why an all powerful God would create a system where the vast majority of people would suffer for eternity?
The worst is when they throw in omnisience. Then they have to admit that god, despite knowing how everything would progress, created the world in the way it ended up. which means he knew Lucifer would betray him, he knew Adamn and Eve would betray him, he knew he'd create all these people he'd have to kill in the flood, all the people in far-off regions who would live and die without ever hearing about Judaism or Christianity, and the world ends up getting destroyed by Jesus and Satan. So what's the fucking point? Don't they act like we here for god to test us? Why would god create something when he knows the whole miserable, destructive outcome?

Answer: he's a fucking asshole, and he just wants to make stuff to be destroyed. what a spoiled brat.

OR: He's Omnisience, but not Precognitive

Frank_Scenario · Post by **Frank_Scenario** » 2003-02-25 08:53pm

Durandal wrote:That would be the riddle of Epicurus:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

Isn't that Hume? At least, Alvin Plantiga attributes that quote to Hume in "God, Freedom, and Evil." Anyway, the quote is right.

Exonerate · Post by **Exonerate** » 2003-02-25 08:58pm

Frank_Scenario wrote:
Durandal wrote:That would be the riddle of Epicurus:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
Isn't that Hume? At least, Alvin Plantiga attributes that quote to Hume in "God, Freedom, and Evil." Anyway, the quote is right.

I think his source was probably http://www.positiveatheism.org

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-02-25 08:58pm

I'm a bit of a Christian deist, myself. I don't believe God interferes in human affairs, for better or for worse.

ArmorPierce · Post by **ArmorPierce** » 2003-02-25 09:20pm

so you're not suppose to commit sin but it is already predetermined that you are going to?

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-02-25 09:21pm

so you're not suppose to commit sin but it is already predetermined that you are going to?

What? Of course you're not supposed to, but if you can go through life without ever intentionally doing harm to another person, let me know.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-02-25 09:36pm

LadyTevar wrote:OR: He's Omnisience, but not Precognitive

Nope. Omniscience means all-knowing. That would also include future knowledge. Or else it wouldn't be knowing everythin now would it.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-02-25 09:38pm

What if God knew all possible futures, but did not determine which one was going to occur?

What would that be called?

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi · Post by **Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi** » 2003-02-25 09:49pm

HemlockGrey wrote:What if God knew all possible futures, but did not determine which one was going to occur?

What would that be called?

A lazy guy with omniscent powers?

Something just came to me: Maybe God does drugs. It would help creationists explain how "intellegently designed" beings have design flaws. Also, it would explain why God doesn't interfere with the universe: He's too wasted to do so. Also, why else do you think he's called "God most high"?

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-02-25 09:54pm

HemlockGrey wrote:What if God knew all possible futures, but did not determine which one was going to occur?

What would that be called?

That would be a form of precognition. Not exactly omnisicience though.

Exonerate · Post by **Exonerate** » 2003-02-25 09:57pm

HemlockGrey wrote:What if God knew all possible futures, but did not determine which one was going to occur?

What would that be called?

Human.

If you can't see what is exactly going to happen, then you're not God anymore.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-02-25 09:58pm

Or maybe he just lets humans determine which course history is going to take...?

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-02-25 10:03pm

HemlockGrey wrote:Or maybe he just lets humans determine which course history is going to take...?

Then that would mean that he didn't know what path they would take, thus not omniscient.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-02-25 10:03pm

-shrugs-

I can live with that.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-02-27 01:07pm

Neko001 wrote:No living person here knows God.

Including you.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-02-27 02:12pm

I remember my cousin telling me his views on god - the old testament was when he was a teen, needing attention, blowing things up that disagreed with him, then the new testament where he matures and becomes kinder.