Transgendered discussion (split from HoS)

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Serafina
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Re: High suicide risk for Transgendered

Post by Serafina »

Okay, we are a bit off track by now, but i think i'll pick up the constructive discussion anyway.
Spoonist wrote:Since its my own observation I wouldn't trust it to be quantifiable. But maybe one-two in a group of ten that was sincere and at least four of ten who would play the other gender a lot over a time period. Mind you I think in a different environment and with less tolerant adults around that number would decrease.
Do you know how children learn things?
By trying something out a certain behaviour, and according to the feedback they get (which can be from parents, peers or purely internal) they either discard or keep that behaviour.
That's basic behavioural development, it applies to nearly everything children do (and to adults as well to a good degree).

So there is nothing strange about a boy (with male gender idenity) trying out femine behavior or even a female role. As i said before, gender identity determines the internal feedback one receives from gender-relevant behaviour. External feedback might override that for quite a while, but that doesn't change the nature of the internal feedback.

Zed wrote:What precisely is 'basic gender identity' and what constitutes 'the exact expression of basic gender identity'? Tell me what form of behavior or form of feelings constitute each of these. Please be more specific than 'feeling like one is a man' or 'feeling like one is a woman', because the character traits associated with the male and female gender vary depending on one's culture.
Okay, first of all, i would like to turn this around:
If gender identity is purely socially constructed, how do you explain the existence of transsexual people? Gender identity being inherent does that quite well.

Now to adress the actual question:
"Basic gender identity" or "core gender identity" is defined as the gender one person identifies with, the "basic" indicating that it is only referring to male or female gender, not other aspects of gender. When i am using the term, it refers to a mechanism you are born with which determines which gender role you prefer from those society has to offer. In almost all societies, this is divided into a male and a female set of roles.

I'll try to explain the second part with an example:

If you offer me any two roles which are assosciated with gender, i'll almost always prefer the female one (given equal conditions for both roles, such as equal rights). This is not a concious process, i often can not name why exactly i would prefer it. Such roles would be: "father/mother", "son/daughter", "wife/husband" (we have almost removed such roles from jobs, which is why they are not listed). If you offer me the same role (say, a job) and offer the question whether i would like to be perceived as male or as female, i will likewise chose the latter.

This does not only apply to myself or other transsexual people, but also to young children and non-transsexual people - at least that's my claim.
Note that removing self-identification from the question is nonsensical, given that the question is largely about self-identification.


I hope that answer is adequate.
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Re: High suicide risk for Transgendered

Post by Zed »

It's not what I'm looking for - if you believe that gender is inborn, it cannot be limited to merely applying the word 'woman' or 'man' to yourself. I asked about what precisely words like 'feminine' or 'masculine' mean, and you responded that you associate yourself with 'feminine roles' as opposed to 'masculine roles' - as such, you've merely dodged the question: you have to say what feminine roles are, what types of behavior are associated with them, et cetera. In this way, one can actually investigate whether this behavior is constant among women of different time periods, different cultures, different ages, et cetera. If a trait is constant among all of these, the odds that its development was biologically influenced increases significantly; on the other hand, the forms of gender expression vary wildly, and proving this uniformity might prove difficult.
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Re: High suicide risk for Transgendered

Post by Mayabird »

Gender expression is completely different from gender identity. The latter is saying "I am male/I am female." How they express their internal gender is culturally determined and varies wildly. I like to use the example of samurai in Japan considering flower arranging and calligraphy to be very manly pursuits (and you don't argue with a guy who can decapitate you). That was the accepted masculine role. Nowadays there are many 'accepted' gender roles, so you can have tomboys and metrosexuals, but the tomboys are still going to call themselves female no matter how many 'normally culturally-considered masculine' roles that they do. That's the important thing here and I think you're mixing them up.
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Re: High suicide risk for Transgendered

Post by Zed »

I think that the notion of a 'female identity' only derives its meaning from what we associate with women, e.g. their behavior, their roles in society, etc. If it isn't that, then what does 'a female identity' mean?
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Re: High suicide risk for Transgendered

Post by Mayabird »

It means someone saying "I am female." That's what it is, and that is all it is. That's what I already said. You are talking about female expression, which is what people who identify as female do or are told they should do. (It's the same with males, but with 'male' in the place of 'female' in those lines.) Completely different even if way too many people mix it up.
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Re: High suicide risk for Transgendered

Post by Zed »

I can't possibly fathom how the words 'I am female' can have any biological origin. Words aren't genetically encoded, and they only derive their meaning from how they are used, as in by application to actual behavior. I can see how certain forms of feminine behavior can have biological causes, but not how saying the words 'I am female" can.
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Re: High suicide risk for Transgendered

Post by SilverWingedSeraph »

Identifying as a member of the female gender has biological causes you fucking moron, how is that fucking hard to grasp?
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Re: High suicide risk for Transgendered

Post by Spoonist »

Note that you only responded to my last post on the subject while that should be seen in the context of the post before that. Just so that we don't misunderstand eachother.
Serafina wrote:Okay, we are a bit off track by now, but i think i'll pick up the constructive discussion anyway.
Shouldn't we wait for a split? That way its easier to see the flow of the discussion.
Serafina wrote:Do you know how children learn things?
Yes? I've had child psychology in school, plus in the last months I've read at least 3 recent books on the topic. Add to that 40 years of life.
Why do you feel the need to pose such a question?
Serafina wrote:By trying something out a certain behaviour, and according to the feedback they get (which can be from parents, peers or purely internal) they either discard or keep that behaviour.
That's basic behavioural development, it applies to nearly everything children do (and to adults as well to a good degree).
Agreed. As a simplification it works but I'd add lots of caveats etc.
Serafina wrote:So there is nothing strange about a boy (with male gender idenity) trying out femine behavior or even a female role.
Of course. Not really what I was talking about in context though.
Serafina wrote:As i said before, gender identity determines the internal feedback one receives from gender-relevant behaviour. External feedback might override that for quite a while, but that doesn't change the nature of the internal feedback.
Again it seems that we mostly agree, but by your lecturing tone I gather that you think I'm wrong somehow?

Again what I objected to was a binary model and that it is 100% settled pre-nataly. Since the components are biological I expect a much more complex model.

My example with the kids was more to allude that if there would be more choices and acceptance of those choices I don't think that kids would only go for male-female and that some need more time to see where they fit in. So a strong GI is not a given, especially if your sexual preference is non-hetero.
What I do think though is that given a weaker GI you more easily fold into whatever pressure there is.

To give an example:
Another documentary. X was born female, no intersex stuff. As a child was a "girlie-girl". No traumas etc. (X and parents where interveiwed and all agreed).
During puberty had boyfriends and viewed Xself as heterosexual with no bi feelings. Started university, started hanging out with radical feminists. Had a personality shift from introvert to extrovert. Started being confrontational with males in authority, questioning the "patriarchical society" to an extreme. Started to date a girl, didn't like girl on girl sex at that time. Started going to a female only club where crossdressing was part of the regular show. Didn't like that at the time, thought it was anti-feminist. Got dumped by girlfriend. Got new girlfriend who was a crossdresser, tried it out. Liked it a lot. Started crossdressing in public as well. Liked that too. Started getting feelings of wanting to be a man, including liking girl on girl sex as long as she was in the male persona. Got dumped because of this since gf was lesbian. Adopted the male persona fully and confronted friends and family. Got ditched by ALL friends because of this, the typical for it being too weird, the feminists for wanting to be a man, the lesbians for wanting a sex-change, etc. Family supportive.
Started the process to make a sex change. Which was when the documentary was made.

Don't see how that fits into a prenatal binary model. It was clear that he thought that if he had not started hanging out with those feminists he would have kept going as a she and he thought that he would have been happier as such, which was kind of tragic.

I've seen & heard of plenty of stuff like that. Where sexual orientation/gender identification changed as an adult.

So I'm looking for more grayscale which allows for extremes like that.
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Re: High suicide risk for Transgendered

Post by Zed »

SilverWingedSeraph wrote:Identifying as a member of the female gender has biological causes you fucking moron, how is that fucking hard to grasp?
Because I haven't seen any real evidence of it? I want to know, for the purposes of determining whether gender identification has biological causes, what precisely gender identification is. If it is saying "I identify as a woman" without the word 'woman' having any specified meaning, I don't see how it can have biological causes. I can see how it can have biological causes if the disconnect between gender identification and gender expression isn't as large as others argue it is.
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Re: High suicide risk for Transgendered

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

What are the differences between males and females, Zed? They're the sex-determined characteristics, they're everything located on the X chromosome and that's it. In males it is mutated and different (though they have an X chromosome too), which means that if parts of the Y chromosome don't work it's an X-chromosome trait that will cover for it, in the same way women, having two X chromosomes, are much more resilient to sex-chromosome based genetic defects since they have a spare copy. In certain select genetic defects, transsexualism is caused by the X chromosome picking up with the homologous female traits of genetic brain development commands of the bad sectors of the Y chromosome, to put it in computing terms.

Now, what this means is that any differences in the mental outlook of males and females are based on a single chromosome. Since those are the sex chromosomes, it makes a great deal of sense to assume that the permanent, biologically fixed male and female differences are based around sexual reproduction and nothing else. Evolution is conservative, so things like liking the colour red instead of blue or flower arranging being feminine instead of masculine, etc, is total bullshit. On the other hand, there are fairly graphic differences in how females approach reproduction, such as desiring a single mate and desiring stability in which to raise offspring, which are at odds with the best reproductive strategy of males. Therefore a transsexual will tend to have the same impulses as a female in mating, which not only means they will naturally find normative whatever society establishes as female standards, but they will also genuinely have the same brain outlook as a female in their approach to all issues related to reproduction, even though they don't engage in it. So while the number of traits determined biologically in terms of gender behaviour may be relatively small, for those crucial traits which are biologically fixed and based on the reproductive drive, transsexuals hew to their identified sex, and in doing so are naturally inclined to receive as social instruction the various memetic norms each culture ascribes to the sexes.
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Re: High suicide risk for Transgendered

Post by Serafina »

Spoonist wrote:Shouldn't we wait for a split? That way its easier to see the flow of the discussion.
I don't want to delay it for too long.
Again it seems that we mostly agree, but by your lecturing tone I gather that you think I'm wrong somehow?
Sorry for that tone, i should have figured that you knew that basic stuff.
Spoonist wrote:Again what I objected to was a binary model and that it is 100% settled pre-nataly. Since the components are biological I expect a much more complex model.
Okay, to clarify my position:
I propose that basic gender identity (BGI) is settled 100% in nearly all human beings before they are born (by brain formation obviously). This does not give them a fully formed gender identity, but it pre-determines how their gender identity is going to develop. This pre-determination is in many cases so strong that it can survive trough decades of opposite social reinforcement - someone born with a male BGI will not develop a female gender when he is raised female (see the case of David Reimer and similar ones, and every single transman in existence).
This pre-determination by the BGI is not necessarily 100% male or 100% female - one could be pre-determined to pick up some attributes from either side. However, we observe that in most cases, it gravitates heavily towards one side.

So essentially it goes like this:
- You are born with a "basic gender identity". This will cause you to prefer male or female actions, roles, behaviours etc. Normally, this is mostly either male or female, tough some mixing does occur. This pre-determination may vary in strenght between individuals, how big that variation is is unknown.
- Over the course of your life, you will try out certain behaviours. Your BGI is a big factor in the feedback you receive and which will determine whether or not you acquire or discard a behavior.
- In the end, you end up with a set of behaviours. In nearly all cases, this will assemble in your personality as either a male or a female gender identity.
Spoonist wrote:I've seen & heard of plenty of stuff like that. Where sexual orientation/gender identification changed as an adult.
Do you KNOW that it has changed? Are you sure that it doesn't just appear that way?
I'm sorry, but documentaries are not exactly good material here. You can not inquire any further about the facts, you are just given one set and that's it. Given how complicated those things are, including for the person interviewed, it's unlikely that it will be accurate.

That being said, that reads like a fairly typical story for a transman - it can be different, but this is nothing unusual.
For example, the "not liking girl-on-girl sex" occured relatively early-on. The physical actions don't matter as much as what is going on in your mind - which is why he could enjoy the same sex later on.
Also, not expressing or feeling anything strange about ones gender during childhood is not that strange for transsexual people either - you can bury it just that deep.

Last but not least - why did he transtition if he says that he would be happier as a girl? Sounds mighty suspicious regarding the accuracy of the documentation.

Zed wrote:Because I haven't seen any real evidence of it? I want to know, for the purposes of determining whether gender identification has biological causes, what precisely gender identification is. If it is saying "I identify as a woman" without the word 'woman' having any specified meaning, I don't see how it can have biological causes. I can see how it can have biological causes if the disconnect between gender identification and gender expression isn't as large as others argue it is.
Why do you think that it's impossible for gender identity to have biological causes at all?
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Re: High suicide risk for Transgendered

Post by Zed »

Serafina wrote:
Zed wrote:Because I haven't seen any real evidence of it? I want to know, for the purposes of determining whether gender identification has biological causes, what precisely gender identification is. If it is saying "I identify as a woman" without the word 'woman' having any specified meaning, I don't see how it can have biological causes. I can see how it can have biological causes if the disconnect between gender identification and gender expression isn't as large as others argue it is.
Why do you think that it's impossible for gender identity to have biological causes at all?
According to opinions offered earlier, 'gender identity' is limited to claims of the form 'I identify as a man', 'I identify as a woman', 'I identify as a eunuch', or other gender identities. To quote Mayabird, "that's what it is, and that is all it is." 'Gender expression' is, according to this view, something entirely different: it's what one does or is expected to do when one adopts this identity. Unfortunately, this scrubs the meaning of the words 'woman', 'man', 'eunuch' et cetera of all content, as anything that we take to be defining of these genders is taken to be gender expression, which is subsequently acknowledged to be culturally variable. This reduces the actual gender identity to nothing but words, and I sincerely doubt that identifying with a particular word can have biological causes.

One way in which this issue can be resolved is by including an actual content to the terms 'male identity' and 'female identity' - the Duchess of Zeon offered one such example, although I'm not entirely convinced that her claims have been proven adequately. The reason for this is partly because it smells of evolutionary psychology, which often expresses the biases of Western culture, and partly because it dismisses third genders.
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Re: High suicide risk for Transgendered

Post by Simon_Jester »

To come up with a coherent definition of gender identity beyond the "I identify as a man" level, you'd need to correlate across cultures looking for the behaviors that are consistent across cultures, that seem to show up everywhere.

For men and women, large biological categories that evolution will tend to operate on strongly, that's possible to do- as Duchess points out, reproductive behavior is a big tipoff.

For any given concept of a third gender matters will be far more difficult. There's likely to be a lack of well defined reproductive behavior because while your brain might wire itself into a 'third sex' configuration, evolution has no interest in promoting that configuration or giving it an optimized reproductive strategy.

And common cultural behaviors aside from reproduction will be difficult too. Many cultures will flat out refuse to acknowledge its existence, or shuffle its members into a different group with a different name. Witness India lumping transwomen, homosexual men, and basically anyone with a Y chromosome who doesn't fit into the male norm into 'hijra.'
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Re: High suicide risk for Transgendered

Post by Spoonist »

Wouldn't high testosterone behavior be universally male?
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Re: Transgendered discussion (split from HoS)

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Re: High suicide risk for Transgendered

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Spoonist wrote:Wouldn't high testosterone behavior be universally male?
What do you mean by "high testosterone behavoir"? A little more precise definition, or some examples, would be helpful.
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Re: High suicide risk for Transgendered

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Zed wrote:
Serafina wrote:
Zed wrote:Because I haven't seen any real evidence of it? I want to know, for the purposes of determining whether gender identification has biological causes, what precisely gender identification is. If it is saying "I identify as a woman" without the word 'woman' having any specified meaning, I don't see how it can have biological causes. I can see how it can have biological causes if the disconnect between gender identification and gender expression isn't as large as others argue it is.
Why do you think that it's impossible for gender identity to have biological causes at all?
According to opinions offered earlier, 'gender identity' is limited to claims of the form 'I identify as a man', 'I identify as a woman', 'I identify as a eunuch', or other gender identities. To quote Mayabird, "that's what it is, and that is all it is." 'Gender expression' is, according to this view, something entirely different: it's what one does or is expected to do when one adopts this identity. Unfortunately, this scrubs the meaning of the words 'woman', 'man', 'eunuch' et cetera of all content, as anything that we take to be defining of these genders is taken to be gender expression, which is subsequently acknowledged to be culturally variable. This reduces the actual gender identity to nothing but words, and I sincerely doubt that identifying with a particular word can have biological causes.

One way in which this issue can be resolved is by including an actual content to the terms 'male identity' and 'female identity' - the Duchess of Zeon offered one such example, although I'm not entirely convinced that her claims have been proven adequately. The reason for this is partly because it smells of evolutionary psychology, which often expresses the biases of Western culture, and partly because it dismisses third genders.

There isn't a biological basis for a third gender. since the human species doesn't have one. There is only an intergrade of male and female traits based on level and type of genetic defect causing anomalous male or female characteristics relative to the human reproductive norms. These can be expressed as a third gender in particular cultural context, however. In short, a third gender is simply a cultural concept used to classify people who have intergrade biological traits which make them identify as neither male or female. You could also say they're part male, part female, but people dislike such uncertainty. Transwomen and transmen have the full biological mental characteristics of their identified sex, however, which means they don't see themselves as trapped on such an intergrade. People with other conditions unquestionably do, so a third gender is a useful classification for them, but ultimately all it is is a cultural way of fitting in people since humans shy away from answers of "both" and prefer certainty.
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Re: Transgendered discussion (split from HoS)

Post by Simon_Jester »

I still think that to really identify a third gender, as opposed to "in between" or "both," which are very broad terms, you'd need to find some kind of well defined clustering of behavior: large numbers of people with a distinct set of characteristic 'gender' behaviors in common.
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Re: High suicide risk for Transgendered

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Zed wrote:
SilverWingedSeraph wrote:Identifying as a member of the female gender has biological causes you fucking moron, how is that fucking hard to grasp?
Because I haven't seen any real evidence of it? I want to know, for the purposes of determining whether gender identification has biological causes, what precisely gender identification is. If it is saying "I identify as a woman" without the word 'woman' having any specified meaning, I don't see how it can have biological causes. I can see how it can have biological causes if the disconnect between gender identification and gender expression isn't as large as others argue it is.
Lets see if I can help.

Gender rolls are socially determined. This has been gone over in depth. However, biologically normal males and females have dimorphic brain structures and neurochemistry that make them process information in different ways, and cue in on things that the other sex does not. Reproduction has been gone over, but there are other things. Males and females process mathematics differently, and have statistically different curves in their ability to process spatial information, and different communication styles. These are the same across all cultures.

If we were to take these traits and do a statistical analysis called a Canonical Correspondence Analysis, we will find that males and females form two distinct clusters, with a bit of scatter in the middle, but not much.

People with non-typical gender identity, will cluster in the region of the graph with those of the opposite biological sex. Their brain and the way it handles information, is the same as a neurotypical person of their opposite biological sex. That is its biological basis, and this serves as the scaffold upon which a large part of their personality, preferences, and behaviors are built.
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Re: High suicide risk for Transgendered

Post by Spoonist »

@Serafina
Sorry for the delay, had problems getting a time slot to write something lengthy and didn't just want to throw in something short.

Couldn't find the sources I was looking for since I can not find the transscripts. I've looked up which documentaries I've watched lately so it should be in there somewhere but I have no access to BBCs own stuff where I live. So sorry about that.

Secrets of the sexes
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/sexsecrets/
Was very interesting to follow Max's transition from woman to man. This is where I think the stat was mentioned. But since I can't access it now I don't know if I remember correctly or not.

Brain Story
No link. It seems not to be available any more. While there are lots of torrent links I'll not post them. Its about the brain in general and some related stuff was mentioned off-hand.
Serafina wrote:
Spoonist wrote:I've seen & heard of plenty of stuff like that. Where sexual orientation/gender identification changed as an adult.
Do you KNOW that it has changed? Are you sure that it doesn't just appear that way?
That is mere retorical questions. By the way you frame them it is impossible to answer them in any other way than how you intend them.
But I'd argue and it's my opinion that yes they do change. There might be a latent predisposition that we don't know about, but still that is how it is perceived by the individuals themselves. That is how they tell their story. I know personally people whose sexual orientation has changed by events or event chains. When listening to them tell their story I have the definite feeling that they themselves believe that such a change has occured, should I doubt them? Should I treat them as if their feelings doesn't matter? Nah, don't think so.
Now when it comes to transsexualism the only personal experience (except for TV/web) is a gaming buddy who wanted to go male-female but after a year and a half in the program bailed out. Now he crossdresses from time to time but mostly just act/dress androgynly. (is that a word?) Talking to him before-during-after has really made up my mind regarding the grayscale of GI. Maybe if he had been a she now I would have had a different view, who knows?
But my view is irrelevant in context compared to theirs. So I'll assume them to be better at knowing their feelings than me as an external observer.
Serafina wrote:I'm sorry, but documentaries are not exactly good material here. You can not inquire any further about the facts, you are just given one set and that's it. Given how complicated those things are, including for the person interviewed, it's unlikely that it will be accurate.
While I understand and agree with the sentiment I don't like the implications of your reasoning. There is a hint there of not trusting the person interviewed. While I would agree with a mistrust of the angling and data selection of a documentary which could be biased, I do usually trust the interviewee (?) when they tell their life story. It depends on the mood of the program.
Serafina wrote:That being said, that reads like a fairly typical story for a transman - it can be different, but this is nothing unusual.
Don't know any transmen and since its so much less covered (and rarer I think?) my exposure is low. But if you say its a common story then my opinion of it being changeable is reinforced rather than the opposite.
Serafina wrote:Also, not expressing or feeling anything strange about ones gender during childhood is not that strange for transsexual people either - you can bury it just that deep.
But if it is buried so deep that the person doesn't know about it and there never is a triggering event for such emotions/mindset then I'd argue that that person is not a transsexual at all. I would also be very suprised if you post-mortem could determine that that should have been a transsexual.
Serafina wrote:Last but not least - why did he transtition if he says that he would be happier as a girl? Sounds mighty suspicious regarding the accuracy of the documentation.
Not suspicious at all. In context it was because of the effect on his life. All the friends he had lost etc. So objectively it was less about the sexchange itself which he wanted to go through with but rather with society's reaction to it. So not that he would be happier as a girl, but rather back before university and the event chain that lead to where he was now he was happier with life. Nostalgia and all that.
Serafina wrote:
Spoonist wrote:Again what I objected to was a binary model and that it is 100% settled pre-nataly. Since the components are biological I expect a much more complex model.
Okay, to clarify my position:
I propose that basic gender identity (BGI) is settled 100% in nearly all human beings before they are born (by brain formation obviously). This does not give them a fully formed gender identity, but it pre-determines how their gender identity is going to develop.
So it seems that we mostly agree but where we do disagree is a nature vs nurture type of thing. That is fair I think since it depends largely on interpretation of current data and waiting for more research to give us more data.

Broomstick wrote:
Spoonist wrote:Wouldn't high testosterone behavior be universally male?
What do you mean by "high testosterone behavoir"? A little more precise definition, or some examples, would be helpful.
Hence the question. :wtf:
I'm not qualified to answer that but there have been plenty of studies done on the topic so that is why I posted it as a suggestion.
But if you are truly asking my opinion for some odd reason then I'd say autistical focus on a single point of interest to the exclusion of all else. MTV Jackass and Jersey shore combinations of high risk low gain adrenaline seeking behaviour and/or sex only for the sake of sex. Maybe?
High testosterone levels in females incerase their libido and risk behaviuor as well. So its definately testosterone dependent.
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Re: Transgendered discussion (split from HoS)

Post by Serafina »

While I understand and agree with the sentiment I don't like the implications of your reasoning. There is a hint there of not trusting the person interviewed. While I would agree with a mistrust of the angling and data selection of a documentary which could be biased, I do usually trust the interviewee (?) when they tell their life story. It depends on the mood of the program.
As i have said above, the story about the transman was nothing unusual if we just take the chain of events you described. I know at least two transmen who would tell a very similar story, and none of them say that his gender identity has actually changed.
I've personally dealt with the question whether my gender identity changed a couple of years ago (to what it know is) - and it just wouldn't make sense if i would claim that i has, because there is neither mechanism nor cause for such a change.

That's my main argument against gender identities actually changing (instead of just appearing to change): Psychologists have looked for social causes of gender identity for the last 60 years or so, and they have found no mechanisms or causes for such a change. They have not even found a mechanism that supports any claim that gender identity is purely based on social influences.
Put simply - you can't raise a biological, non-transsexual boy as a girl no matter how hard you try (even if you alter the body accordingly). It has been tried several times and failed every single time (and vice versa for cisgirls).
Also, no one has found any social causes for transsexuality - you can be raised by a tolerant or intolerant family, by a famility with a dominant father or mother or a well-balanced relationship, as a single child or with siblings of one or both genders, you can be a first, intermediate or last child, you can have lot's of friends of the same or opposite gender or both, you can be allowed to play with dolls or trucks or not, you can be raised by a single parent of either gender or not, you can have grandparents or your parent is your only family, you can be raised wealthy or poor, you can be neglected or get a lot of attention and so on and so on and so on.
NONE of these things have been shown to have ANY significance for transsexuality. If gender WAS purely based on socialisation, then we should find one or several strong influences that cause transsexuality - perhaps 30% of all transsexuals were raised by a single parent of the same gender, or perhaps 26% were neglected during a specific phase in childhood. But we have found NOTHING like that.

Now of course you can say that this doesn't mean that we will never find anthing - but when people have looked for fourty years and found absolutely nothing, then i think it's pretty fair to consider other explanations to be superior. If we actually find a social cause, that would change things - but if the evidence can't support a theory, it is obviously quite weak.

Don't know any transmen and since its so much less covered (and rarer I think?) my exposure is low. But if you say its a common story then my opinion of it being changeable is reinforced rather than the opposite.
Except that none of them describe their gender identity as having changed. Rather, it's all about having a male gender identity all along and trying to find a way that allows them to live according to that identity and still fit with what everyone is telling them (that they're women). This mostly happens unconciously, but it can also be a concious effort.
I stronly suspect that the documentary constructed "realizing someones own gender identity" as "changing someones own gender identity". This is a rather common mistake - many transsexual people try to display the gender identity society tells them they should have until their transition. A few years ago, other people would have perceived me as having a male gender identity, and i would have likely confirmed that if they had asked - i just tried to conform that hard. Now that's not the case anymore - people perceive me as having a female gender identity and i say so when asked.

That doesn't mean that my gender identity has changed, it only means that my behaviour has changed. The male gender identity is was displaying earlier in my life was just acting - very elaborate and unconcious acting, but acting nontheless. And it showed, i was solely copying other peoples behaviour, was insecure when i could not do that and so on. That's another thing that has amazingly changed - a lot of my female behaviour came much more sponataneous, and i am much less insecure about it.

Now i have seen the same thing happen to other transwomen and to transmen. A transman i know got the chance to drop his female act about a year ago (he moved out from his parents). He was quite capable of acting female before that, but it always felt slightly detached from his actual personality. But afterwards, this was not the case when he was acting male. It was sometimes a bit strange, like a young teenage boys behaviour, but it didn't feel like acting. And that stopped after a few months, and he is now acting genuinenly all the time - as a man.
As i said, i strongly suspect that this is what happened to the transman in your documentary as well. It fits all the facts given there and it also fits my own observations.

Oh, and by the way, it is very likely that there are about as many transmen as transwomen. Official statistics tend to say that there are three times more of the latter than of the former, but they are horribly outdated and inaccurate.
It's just that you won't notice transmen on the streets - early in their transition, you'll perceive them as a butch lesbian or a feminine man. And once they had testosterone for about a year, you won't notice a thing, except possibly their small body height and slightly slender built.

But if it is buried so deep that the person doesn't know about it and there never is a triggering event for such emotions/mindset then I'd argue that that person is not a transsexual at all. I would also be very suprised if you post-mortem could determine that that should have been a transsexual.
When you bury/supress a emotion, that emotion doesn't go away - it will still affect your behaviour, tough often not in the manner it would if not supressed.
Again, i will take myself as an example. I subconciously avoided acting female all my life and "acted" male. Any observant person noticed that i didn't do so very well - my behaviour was akward, felt slightly detached and was over the top every now and then. That's typical for an emotional release for a supressed emotion - someone who supressed the emotions about the death of a loved one will also act akward etc. in situations where this will matter.
All the supression means is that you do no longer conciously deal with that emotion - someone who supressed the death of a loved one will likey think that he dealt with it long ago, when he in fact didn't.

There is plenty of reason for such a supression with transsexual people. After all, everyone is telling you that you are a boy/girl, even if those people would be accepting of your transsexuality - they just don't know any better. There is simply enormous social pressure applied - and some people are just naturally good at lying to themselves.

Oh, and while we don't have a sure way yet, looking at the BSTc and INAH3 after death is already giving a good idea whether a dead person was transsexual or not.

So it seems that we mostly agree but where we do disagree is a nature vs nurture type of thing. That is fair I think since it depends largely on interpretation of current data and waiting for more research to give us more data.
Sorry, but see above.
We simply have not found even hints for any social mechanism causing transsexuality or gender identity. We don't even have a good idea for possible causes, much less concrete data or explanations - almost everything has been ruled out already.
On the other hand, there are some clear differences in someones brain that are at least very strongly correlated to that persons gender identity. That's not necessarily the direct mechanism for gender identity, but it's a good lead and (other than the social theory) we have not ruled out that many possiblities here.

So it does not, in fact, "depend on the interpretation of the current data". Because the data is quite clearly ruling out a lot of social causes, while there are still a lot of possible biological causes.
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Re: Transgendered discussion (split from HoS)

Post by Spoonist »

@Serafina
Cool, its always nice to get ones preconceived notions a shake every now and then. I think that you are starting to change my mind on this, please continue. Probably because ones views so seldom becomes challenged that one because of that assume them to be correct. :P
Serafina wrote:Oh, and by the way, it is very likely that there are about as many transmen as transwomen. Official statistics tend to say that there are three times more of the latter than of the former, but they are horribly outdated and inaccurate.
Didn't know that. Got anything one can read to learn more?
Serafina wrote:I know at least two transmen who would tell a very similar story, and none of them say that his gender identity has actually changed.
So lets see here if I interpret you correctly.
By conforming to the demands of society they suppress their GI so much that they don't consciously know about it. But if they get to play the part consistent with their hardwire GI, this triggers it from subconscious to conscious. Thus it feels right, so right that they want to transition and can no longer go back.
Where most but not all can look back on childhood/youth with that info and realise why they acted as they did.
In the case of the documentary I watched he claimed to never have had such an appifany of understanding earlier behaviour. So he would be an exception.
Serafina wrote:Put simply - you can't raise a biological, non-transsexual boy as a girl no matter how hard you try (even if you alter the body accordingly). It has been tried several times and failed every single time (and vice versa for cisgirls).
Here you lost me again. If one has suppressed it so much that you don't know it yourself. Then if you never get an opportunity to play the other part and thus realise that is what you were looking for then you'd only know that you are troubled, not why. If X in the documentary never had met the feminists, had a partner and a kid, then died a few years later, then X would have never known Xself to be transsexual. Or am I missing something?
Serafina wrote:They have not even found a mechanism that supports any claim that gender identity is purely based on social influences.
Purely? You use that several times in your posts. Don't know if it was directed at me or just added info. But if directed at me I never claimed purely social influences. I claimed that given a more accepting society more people would claim non-stereotypical gender identification, just like if there is no oppression of homosexuality then bisexuality becomes more prevalent. I also claimed that there are people who defy such binary definitions and opt for more neutral or dual ones.
Serafina wrote:Also, no one has found any social causes for transsexuality
Bare with me a little more here. I must be a bit thick or obstinate. (No sarcasm). But in the example of X above the social cause was crossdressing triggering the feelings of wanting to be a male, before then he thought he wanted to be a lesbian. Mind you I'm not saying that crossdressing causes transsexualism, I'm just saying that if society lets you experiment more that can trigger a predisposed condition.
Serafina wrote:Except that none of them describe their gender identity as having changed. Rather, it's all about having a male gender identity all along and trying to find a way that allows them to live according to that identity and still fit with what everyone is telling them (that they're women). This mostly happens unconciously, but it can also be a concious effort.
But then they are not similar. X didn't feel that he had a male gender identity all along, neither did friends or parents see any such in hindsight.
Serafina wrote:As i said, i strongly suspect that this is what happened to the transman in your documentary as well. It fits all the facts given there and it also fits my own observations.
Could very well be.
Serafina wrote:
But if it is buried so deep that the person doesn't know about it and there never is a triggering event for such emotions/mindset then I'd argue that that person is not a transsexual at all.
When you bury/supress a emotion, that emotion doesn't go away - it will still affect your behaviour, tough often not in the manner it would if not supressed.
Agreed, but without awereness there can not be a will to transition. Without a will to transition, are you really a transsexual then? (Honest question).
Serafina wrote:
I would also be very suprised if you post-mortem could determine that that should have been a transsexual.
Oh, and while we don't have a sure way yet, looking at the BSTc and INAH3 after death is already giving a good idea whether a dead person was transsexual or not.
If the link goes both ways, yes absolutely. But what if we find typicals with reversed structures? Do we assume them to be in the closet?
What would be fascinating would be to see if it can be predicted. If one can test in a population early to see the predisposition, then to see how many of those with the predisposition display when tested thought processes matching the opposite gender. Or how many of them turn out to have gender identity problems, while a bit trickier as a ethical dilemma.

G2G2B if I was unclear anywhere I will clarify tomorrow. Same if I missed something important.
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Re: Transgendered discussion (split from HoS)

Post by Serafina »

Didn't know that. Got anything one can read to learn more?
A good read on the prevalence of transsexuality in general.
By conforming to the demands of society they suppress their GI so much that they don't consciously know about it. But if they get to play the part consistent with their hardwire GI, this triggers it from subconscious to conscious. Thus it feels right, so right that they want to transition and can no longer go back.
Where most but not all can look back on childhood/youth with that info and realise why they acted as they did.
In the case of the documentary I watched he claimed to never have had such an appifany of understanding earlier behaviour. So he would be an exception.
Well, yes: I am saying that due to the enormous pressure from society, you can supress your gender identity so much that you don't realize it at all.
Now, realizing what parts of your earlier behaviours have been due to that repression and which ones were to other factors is a completely different story.
Here you lost me again. If one has suppressed it so much that you don't know it yourself. Then if you never get an opportunity to play the other part and thus realise that is what you were looking for then you'd only know that you are troubled, not why. If X in the documentary never had met the feminists, had a partner and a kid, then died a few years later, then X would have never known Xself to be transsexual. Or am I missing something?
No, you are right - you obviously need to get out of that supression, or you will continue doing it.
This can be done in two ways:
- The factors that made you supress your emotions vanish. Say, you move out from your parents and now you can actually act more like yourself.
- Something happens that is so big that you can't supress it any more. Say, a transman (before transition and hence "as a woman") is about to get married to another man. That creates a conflict with his gender identity that is too big to keep supressing, so he finally starts to realize what's up with him-

For me, it was a combination of those two factors:
I moved into an enviorment where i felt less pressured to act male, and after being more like myself for some time i had an epiphany that finally got me thinking about my gender identity. After doing that for a while, i was able to admit to myself that i wanted to live as a woman - and then i tried that and it turned out to be the best "decision" of my life.
Bare with me a little more here. I must be a bit thick or obstinate. (No sarcasm). But in the example of X above the social cause was crossdressing triggering the feelings of wanting to be a male, before then he thought he wanted to be a lesbian. Mind you I'm not saying that crossdressing causes transsexualism, I'm just saying that if society lets you experiment more that can trigger a predisposed condition.
No, what the crossdressing was for him was the trigger for realizing what he actually wanted to be (a man).
In a more tolerant society, transsexual people are of course less likely to supress their gender identity. But that's like being around a lot of people with medical training when you are sick - they are more likely to realize what's up, they don't cause (or not cause) the disease.
But then they are not similar. X didn't feel that he had a male gender identity all along, neither did friends or parents see any such in hindsight.
So what? I could also honestly say that i did not have a female gender identity a couple of years ago, since i was not acting female. I think this is mostly due to different usage of words: When i say "gender identity" i mean "a basic part of your personality that determines which gender you would like to be". Many other people mean "the way you act, either male or female" when they say "gender identity".
I am referring to something innate that's there even when you don't live according to it (like repressed homosexuality), others are referring to a behavioural pattern (like actively dating other men).
Agreed, but without awereness there can not be a will to transition. Without a will to transition, are you really a transsexual then? (Honest question).
By my definition, yes. That definition being "a person with a gender identity opposite to the bodies sex".
I was transsexual a couple of years ago, even if i had no clue that i was and no concious wish to transition. I would also say that a homosexual man was homosexual before he realized that he was attracted to other men.

If the link goes both ways, yes absolutely. But what if we find typicals with reversed structures? Do we assume them to be in the closet?
That is of course a fascinating research subject. However, so far, no one has found a phyiscally male person with a female BSTc who was not transsexual, or the other way round. Due to small sample sizes, that's not all that definitive, of course - but that's a definitive thing to look for. If we ever find people with inversed BSTcs who have a completely sex-compliant gender identity (male gender identity, female BSTc and vice versa), then that would show that my theory is false. Of course, i can't prove a negative and make a definitve claim that we will never find such a thing.

G2G2B if I was unclear anywhere I will clarify tomorrow. Same if I missed something important.
Same here
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Re: Transgendered discussion (split from HoS)

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

But I'd argue and it's my opinion that yes they do change. There might be a latent predisposition that we don't know about, but still that is how it is perceived by the individuals themselves.
What a person perceives is different than what is. I would need more detail to posit an alternative more in line with actual, you know, data.
That is how they tell their story. I know personally people whose sexual orientation has changed by events or event chains. When listening to them tell their story I have the definite feeling that they themselves believe that such a change has occured, should I doubt them? Should I treat them as if their feelings doesn't matter? Nah, don't think so.
No. Not at all, but see above. What a person thinks is true, and what is true, are often different things.

Now when it comes to transsexualism the only personal experience (except for TV/web) is a gaming buddy who wanted to go male-female but after a year and a half in the program bailed out. Now he crossdresses from time to time but mostly just act/dress androgynly. (is that a word?) Talking to him before-during-after has really made up my mind regarding the grayscale of GI. Maybe if he had been a she now I would have had a different view, who knows?
Well, the gray scale can be a problem when you are presented with two alternatives instead of realizing that being in the middle of a sliding scale is also possible.
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