Should SG1 have traded with Kolona

[mr friendly guy]

So I am watching SG 1 seasons 5, and now onto season 6 and they meet Jonas Quinn and the Kolonans.

Basically the world the Kolonans come from is divided into 3 countries which has been in a cold war, after the previous war 20 years ago. The nations are around 1940s Earth level technology and the Kolonans mention they have tested a free prototypes of jet engines successfully. The Kolonans have something SG1 wants, Naquadriah ?sp, which is more powerful than Naquadah.

In their first meeting, the Kolonans tried to frame Daniel as a sabotuer to cover up their incompetence when testing the Naquadriah. In the next meeting the Kolonans want some military tech, eg SAM to defend themselves against the other two countries who have signed a non aggression treaty, and one of them is already massing troops on the border. The predicted outcome is that the Kolonans would lose within a few months and be conquered.

SG1 essentially stole the Naquadriah (or perhaps it could be looked at that they received stolen goods) without giving the Kolonans anything in exchange. However from the beginning the US was only willing to negotiate non military technology, eg antibiotics.

What I want to know, is if you were in charge of giving General Hammond his orders, would you consider trading military technology to them (assuming that plot device which gave us the Naquadriah didn't occur).

My first thought is to gather more information to see whether what the Kolonans were saying is true. The Kolonan scientists may have behaved like dicks, but that doesn't mean their nation is not allowed to defend themselves, and sometimes the defense involves them taking a decisive offense to end the war (something SG1 seemed to be wary of). If the geopolitical situation is as they say, its not unreasonable for them to defend themselves. The problem is can you predict they won't turn around and become the aggressors sometime down the line.

So what would you do if you were in charge?

[adam_grif]

The pragmatic thing to do is transfer tech that is maybe 5-10 years beyond what they already have, the kind of tech we were rocking in the 1950's or 1960's. It gives them a substantial advantage in one area (air defense or what have you) but it should be something they could replicate with their own tech base given a few years of development, and isn't something that would give them an unbeatable advantage over their foes with (Especially given their 2:1 advantage, and presumably they could copy it in a few short years).

If you didn't care about maintaining the balance of power, then you can just throw all sorts of advanced kit at them (not just samples obviously, sending people to teach them how to make much more advanced equipment) and say "hey guys when you're done conquering the world, we'll be expecting some serious help with that Goa'uld problem." Obviously we shouldn't give them any of our latest toys, especially not the alien stuff, but you get the idea.

IMO a more important situation was the earlier episodes (forget which season exactly) with the Space Nazis, where we were so damn close to being given all of their tech base with fusion reactors and advanced aeuronautics... and then we had to do the "moral thing" and abandon them.

Hey guys, I don't suppose it occurred to you to send like a platoon through the stargate and fucking conquer them from the inside out, hold them accountable for war crimes but maintaining the defensive shield at the same time so you could keep all their cool toys. But whatever, I'm sure the status quo gods will be pleased.

[Todeswind]

I don't think it matters if they're telling the truth or not. The USA has backed more ethically questionable allies in the past (Saddam, Al-Queda, Contra, etc.) who had infinitely less to offer the USA in return. There is no possible way for the weapons technologies in question to be turned on the USA (or anyone on earth) and frankly the Kolonans don't seem particularly ideologically discordant with the US government, other than being a bunch of sneaky bastards. SG-1 made a big deal of not wanting to be on anyone's side but honestly turning down the opportunity to have an nation sized industrial power fabricating weapons materials for them is absurd. They could easily start contracting out to Kolonans to make stuff like ammunition and whatnot. Where is the possible danger in giving them the weapons technologies from the 60-70's? Sure the nations are dangerous to each other but there is little damage they could hope to do to earth even if the worst were to happen.

And really it seemed like they handled that diplomatic situation from entirely the wrong angle. Rather than trying to resolve hundred year old hatreds they should have worked on forming mutual pro-earth interests. I never wholly understood why they didn't send space-ships to that planet with good will gifts for all the nations. Not military technology of course but why not bring art, music, and movies? I suspect that for the price of a couple hundred thousand play-stations built like arcade machines they could drum up some pro-earth sentiments pretty quick. Don't negotiate trades for that stuff just give it to them, especially the stuff that gives them unrealistic expectations of what US soldiers can accomplish. Why not even set up a broadcast satellite that sends them basic cable from Earth? Good morning Kolona and so on.

[Themightytom]

IMO a more important situation was the earlier episodes (forget which season exactly) with the Space Nazis, where we were so damn close to being given all of their tech base with fusion reactors and advanced aeuronautics... and then we had to do the "moral thing" and abandon them.

.

Yeah THAT was a pile of horseshit, Carter had the fucking memory core in her damn hands. O'Neill could have pulled his little stunt AFTER sending her through the damn gate, unbelievable.

Sure SG-1 could have traded with the Kelownans, until the irradiated Daniel and then lied about it. There's no basis of trust there, and the Naquadriah ultimately proved to be not only too unstable for practical application, buttttt apparently there are whole planets of it elsewhere.

On the other hand they could have used Kelowna as an industrial base, making trinium bullets or something, I mean they could have been trading surplus obsolete hardware for a pretty much untraceable supply chain, had they wanted to continue to mask the Stargate program's existence from the public. the reason Kinsley got involved in the first place was because of the enormous expenses involved. Even if they just had the Kelownans running a sweat shop they could have generated off books revenue.


Ask about

[adam_grif]

Yeah THAT was a pile of horseshit, Carter had the fucking memory core in her damn hands. O'Neill could have pulled his little stunt AFTER sending her through the damn gate, unbelievable.

Yep. That episode makes me angry just thinking about it.

buttttt apparently there are whole planets of it elsewhere.

Shhhhh. As far as I'm concerned SGU is non-canon. Anyway there certainly wouldn't have been any way to know this circa season 6. There are also other advantages to having Kewlonistan on their side, namely a country that represents 1/3 of an earthlike planet and the industrial base that goes along with that.

[mr friendly guy]

Hey guys, I don't suppose it occurred to you to send like a platoon through the stargate and fucking conquer them from the inside out, hold them accountable for war crimes but maintaining the defensive shield at the same time so you could keep all their cool toys. But whatever, I'm sure the status quo gods will be pleased.

If thats the one where they had technology to control planes by thought it would be useful even when we got Asgard tech. How much faster would reaction time be on a ship if we could control it by thought?

Anyway, that was my thought as well. We can defeat the Space Nazi's and get their tech and let the good guys on that planet win.

And really it seemed like they handled that diplomatic situation from entirely the wrong angle. Rather than trying to resolve hundred year old hatreds they should have worked on forming mutual pro-earth interests. I never wholly understood why they didn't send space-ships to that planet with good will gifts for all the nations. Not military technology of course but why not bring art, music, and movies? I suspect that for the price of a couple hundred thousand play-stations built like arcade machines they could drum up some pro-earth sentiments pretty quick. Don't negotiate trades for that stuff just give it to them, especially the stuff that gives them unrealistic expectations of what US soldiers can accomplish. Why not even set up a broadcast satellite that sends them basic cable from Earth? Good morning Kolona and so on.

I believe our first indigenously built spaceship didn't finish until several episodes after, and even then I don't think we had that many. By the time we had some sort of fleet I believe Anubis came a calling to that planet.

On the other hand they could have used Kelowna as an industrial base, making trinium bullets or something, I mean they could have been trading surplus obsolete hardware for a pretty much untraceable supply chain, had they wanted to continue to mask the Stargate program's existence from the public. the reason Kinsley got involved in the first place was because of the enormous expenses involved. Even if they just had the Kelownans running a sweat shop they could have generated off books revenue.

I never thought of it this way. Turning the Kolonians into China mark II. The only problem I see is, what do we give them in exchange for continuing to pump out this stuff for us. We would have to drive a really hard bargain, like we give you our SAMs and nice toys, you work for us for several decades. Unless they start accepting American dollars.

I also like the idea of getting extra income for SGC. They would most probably need some separate entity to manage the money making side of things, since an army who focusses on trying to make money, tends to do so at the expense of actually training to fight. Witness the state of the PLA before China's government start divesting the military of these money making assets.

[Todeswind]

If thats the one where they had technology to control planes by thought it would be useful even when we got Asgard tech. How much faster would reaction time be on a ship if we could control it by thought?

Anyway, that was my thought as well. We can defeat the Space Nazi's and get their tech and let the good guys on that planet win.

This, exactly this.

I believe our first indigenously built spaceship didn't finish until several episodes after, and even then I don't think we had that many. By the time we had some sort of fleet I believe Anubis came a calling to that planet.

The space between episodes was over a period of what was months? days? hours? If it's months then if they didn't send a space ship why not send them crates of luxury goods that we have in excess? The planet seemed a bit spartan and soviet when it came down to the finer things in life. Send them cake mix, send them Oreos send them movies, send them whatever but try and get them on the happyness and apple pie boat as quickly as is possible specifically so that when something like the Anubis situation comes up you have their good will to fall back on.

Tragic though the death of Daniel Jackson was it was not sufficient to warrant the relative cutoff of diplomatic attempts to that planet considering the industrial and resource potential of the planet.

I never thought of it this way. Turning the Kolonians into China mark II. The only problem I see is, what do we give them in exchange for continuing to pump out this stuff for us. We would have to drive a really hard bargain, like we give you our SAMs and nice toys, you work for us for several decades. Unless they start accepting American dollars.

I also like the idea of getting extra income for SGC. They would most probably need some separate entity to manage the money making side of things, since an army who focusses on trying to make money, tends to do so at the expense of actually training to fight. Witness the state of the PLA before China's government start divesting the military of these money making assets.

We give them the technological basis to make us basic equipment for the military and we in turn receive munitions and whatnot. Hell you could even build this into my previous suggestion of trading luxury goods. iPods for nukes and so on, I would think that extra~Kolonial (almost said terrestrial) cultural items and curiosities would have substantial value.

[Chris OFarrell]

With the Space Nazi's, I don't even see why you would need to have O'Neill double cross them.

Just play along exactly as they were playing along. Take the memory core back to Earth with the guy to show them how to extract the data, in exchange for the first shipment of Deuterium for their fusion reaction.

They get their shield and systems fully operational, we get the tech base.

Then we shut the Stargate, seal the iris, and ignore all connections from the other side, after we are shown how to access the data and can dump it all into Earth computers.

We get what they want, the Space Nazi's get what they want...for what, a few weeks or months? Then they die, and everyone is happy!

[mr friendly guy]

We get what they want, the Space Nazi's get what they want...for what, a few weeks or months? Then they die, and everyone is happy!

Except those people killed while fighting them for those extra few months, thanks to our supplies. Double crossing them is even better for everyone. Except the Space Nazi's, but screw them anyway.

[Revy]

With regards to the Space Nazi's (that was the group led by Odo wasn't it?), to be fair Senator Kinsey calls Jack out on this later in the series, saying 'even when we do find someone to trade advanced tech with, you decide they aren't the right kind of people!', and despite being an ass, he had a point. Just because Jack and Daniel decided it wasn't morally right doesn't mean their superiors felt the same way. Remember that they were ordered to assist the Space Nazi's in exchange for the tech, despite SG1 warning that heavy water could be used in weaponry and Daniel protesting they were evil racists. Don't blame the whole of Earth for being morons just because SG1 were acting stupid.

[mr friendly guy]

Just a tangential note, but what annoyed me was the high horse Earth was on about the naquadriah.

They are building a bomb, omfg evil.

We are building defense shields, yay good!

But it ignores the evil that those new shields enable. Anyone remember how the Tollan got beaten?

Gah.

Not to mention in that same episode O'Neill chastises them for wanting "defensive" SAMs, because its easy enough to turn them into offensive weapons. Now you could be generous and say O'Neill was following orders to not trade away military tech, so he needed something to say to the Kolonans that seemed sincere.