WH40k Imperial Guard vs SW Stormtroopers

[DrMckay]

No questions about capital ship or teraton-level firepower, I was just wondering, out of a 1 million-man expeditionary force which would be triumphant over the other (Only spaceships allowed are dropships)

A few questions:

1) Which force has the superior doctrine?
2) the best weapons?
3) the best leadership and training?

[Chaotic Neutral]

Heavy Bolters would be incredibly large, bulky, ammo consuming, piece of shit excuses for a HMG when going against a SW army. But being able to cut through armor is invaluable when fighting 40k opponents.

In fact, this applies to all bolters.

What climate? IG weapons and vehicles are made cheap and reliable. They have an advantage in long battles, but can be beaten more easily in short ones. COUGH;IG VS Tau;COUGH

As for leadership, SW would probably have an advantage, since the IG leadership would probably be more experienced in MEAT FOR THE MEAT GRINDER!

[Todeswind]

No questions about capital ship or teraton-level firepower, I was just wondering, out of a 1 million-man expeditionary force which would be triumphant over the other (Only spaceships allowed are dropships)

So no space capable ships at all other than the drop-ships? Only atmospheric snub fighters and the like? Would Tie Fighters and bombers be allowed? Are the drop ships armed?

Assuming you mean no air support at all.

1) Which force has the superior doctrine?

It seems like the vast majority of SW land battles aren't protracted campaigns but rather rapid insertions with strategic goals. The IST are (mostly) space based rather than land based in how they are deployed their tactics reflect that. Even the main battle vehicles seen in the original trilogy and the prequels are all designed with the intent for rapid insertion and rapid dominance. This being said it seems like star wars military tactics are very reliant on air support and orbital bombardments and removing this aspect severely gimps them.

There are IG legions who operate like this, namely the Eleysian (misspelled) drop troops who are essentially based off the SW storm troopers to begin with. By and large however the IG are designed with the idea of fighting campaigns for decades or even centuries on a single world. They also tend to deploy much larger forces for comparatively similar goals.

2) the best weapons?

General issue or uber wank tech? If the IG get a Titan then it's just unfair unless you even it out with some sort of ground defense battery or somesuch. I suspect you're less interested in that and more interested in the basic trooper.

There are SW and IG versions of the basic types of Scifi-tech that are more or less equal. The basic guardsman isn't as well armored as the basic stormtrooper, generally speaking, but the GEoM stormtrooper and the SW stormtrooper are on more or less equal footing. The SW weapons tend to be more sophisticated and easily maintained but they are no more powerful that the 40k versions and are at times less powerful. Armored assaults seem to be more common with the IG and less common in SW but I suspect that has more to do with their rapid insertion/leaving than with an inability to create them. There are certainly tanks in the SW real time strategy games but how they compare with the 40k ones and how they fit into cannon is anyones guess. Without any air support at all I'm tempted to go with 40k, ground fights are just what they do best.

As Star War's fan appeal is mostly about space and less about land the specifics of ground combat tend to be left to the imagination outside of sourcebooks. As 40k is a more ground based franchise the opposite is true. The Forge World sourcebooks are like a laundry list of things I would never want to see on a battlefield that are capable of killing me in inventive ways.

3) the best leadership and training?

It depends on who's in charge. Both sides have leaders who are godlike and leaders who I worry how they dress themselves without help.

[Black Admiral]

Which world or worlds are the Guard forces being drawn from, and what kind of regiments would they be? These things dictate a lot about how they're equipped, how they'll fight, and the quality of leadership available.

[Purple]

One thing to consider is that the IG use artillery, and I mean a lot of artillery. SW as far as I know has no comparable weaponry. As such, a lot would depend on if the IG manage to simply locate the ST and grind them into the ground with a barrage WW1 style.

[Imperial528]

SW does have ground-based turbolaser artillery (Later versions aren't even line of sight, don't ask). However, it is rarely deployed amongst the cannon, unless there is a hardened target that needs to be destroyed. (Such as those core ships in AoTC)

If the stormtroopers manage to get a theater shield up during the battle, it would definately cause problems for the IG's artillery plans. Although, I guess the IG could easily starve them out if they just keep bombing the shield so dropships and shuttles can't leave it. Although, I don't know if stormtrooper legions usually come equipped with mobile or portable theater shields.


If the Guard get a titan, an Imperial AT-AT might be able to deal with it, provided it has the element of surprise or a shield to hide behind, since as much as I like the AT-AT, Titans carry the kind of firepower that can knock one over, if not just blowing a hole through it in a couple shots. Baneblades would probably pose similar problems, and be harder to kill, since they can hide behind cover more easily.

Personally, I think that as far as heavy vehicles go, the Guard will have the advantage, since Imperial vehicles tend to be lighter with high firepower/fire rate and speed overall, rather than the large armored tanks of the Guard.

[Todeswind]

SW does have ground-based turbolaser artillery (Later versions aren't even line of sight, don't ask). However, it is rarely deployed amongst the cannon, unless there is a hardened target that needs to be destroyed. (Such as those core ships in AoTC)

If the stormtroopers manage to get a theater shield up during the battle, it would definately cause problems for the IG's artillery plans. Although, I guess the IG could easily starve them out if they just keep bombing the shield so dropships and shuttles can't leave it. Although, I don't know if stormtrooper legions usually come equipped with mobile or portable theater shields.

Theater shields aren't unheard of in 40k, nor are citywide ones. They're uncommon, but not unheard of.

If the Guard get a titan, an Imperial AT-AT might be able to deal with it, provided it has the element of surprise or a shield to hide behind, since as much as I like the AT-AT, Titans carry the kind of firepower that can knock one over, if not just blowing a hole through it in a couple shots. Baneblades would probably pose similar problems, and be harder to kill, since they can hide behind cover more easily.

The turbolasters on an AT-AT are more or less equal to a lascannon so with enough concentrated force, sure they could take out a titan. Especially if they operated in groups. A Knight or Warhound scout titan is only a couple steps above the AT-AT but I have serious doubts about their ability to take out a Warlord or Emperor Titan, both of which are equipped with weapons used to fight off starships in orbit as well as ground troops. Screw knock it over, it can bloody well vaporize half the battlefield.

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

In terms of doctrine, I reckon the Guard might actually have the edge here. Their institutional memory may be blurred by mythic thinking, but it goes back a lot further and encompasses a great variety of operations and enemies- and is the "Praise the Emperor who guides us to victory" thing any worse a destroyer of clear thinking and rational analysis than Unity, Stability, Conformity? A senior officer of the Guard may have more authority to vary and adapt plans, depending on the personal relationships among the command staff, than a Galactic Empire marshal practically chained to the rulebook and liable to be executed for deviationism.

In terms of individual experience, I think the Guard has it here too. By definition, they are a mobile, reaction force; there's no point keeping them floating around waiting for something to do, they are raised as and sent where they're needed. They likely see more combat than an equivalent mass of Stormtroopers, who even in the midst of rebellion are more public order troops than anything else, apart form the few who operate with the fleet.

Forces a million strong are far beyond being composed of simple footsoldiery- the nearest match on the Imperial side is three full Armies, each of four Corps of four Divisions; that comes to a shade over nine hundred thousand, about two thirds of them actually combatant- going by the old Imperial Sourcebook here. an Army is supposed to be a full slice of the orchestra of war,

An Army consists of one each of the four different corps; line, atrisian (assault), armor (sic) and mobile. This gives an army 193,644 troops, 293,286 total personnel, 16,660 repulsorlift vehicles and at least 3,498 heavy tanks.

Now, making the appropriate conversions from army to stormtrooper, a lot of those repulsors and the majority of the heavy vehicles are going to be walkers instead. Not AT-AT, not that many of them; mostly AT-TE, AT-AP, similar medium types. Oh, and at this level, there is organic TIE support- each Corps includes an auxilliary battlegroup of stuff that doesn't fit elsewhere, such as CompForce fanatic idiots, artillery, and fighters. A full Army should have a hundred and sixty fighters, four regiments (one per corps) of four squadrons of ten, attached to it.

This is the sort of thing that deliberately gets left vague about the Guard, the precise composition of large units, but I reckon it is going to end up being basically about the tanks. Wouldn't expect Titan support- the impression I got from the Sabbat Crusade books was you needed to be talking about tens to hundreds of millions before the Divisio Militaris got interested. Which in that crusade, it was that big, and they were. An operation like this, a couple of hundred Regiments of guard (less if the support and logistics train has to come out of that million)- not unless something interesting happens, and then at the pace of interstellar reinforcement.

The Guard have artillery, but some of it is towed, and too much of their infantry is mounted on shanks' pony- i.e. not- this is starting to look vaguely like 1914 vs 1941, field guns with the addition of some very nasty infantry support weapons versus armour, immobile versus relatively mobile.

[Simon_Jester]

Are the stormtroopers motorized, though? I've never been sure. Two hundred thousand-plus men for less than twenty thousand vehicles isn't promsing on that score.

And what does the Guard's air support look like? At a bare minimum they should have some Valkyrie-type troop transports and gunships.

Granted, that may depend on the precise configuration of the regiments dispatched, but the Guard does try to balance out capabilities in a large force, achieve combined arms on the regimental level if not organic to the individual regiments; some of the Guard formations will have whatever organic air power they bring with them, along with a reasonable selection of air defense platforms.

[open_sketchbook]

The sheer number and versitility of Guard tanks is a serious point in the Guard's favour. As I remember it, Stormtroopers don't even have armour elements of their own, and rely on the Imperial Army to detach walkers, repulsors and tanks for heavy operation. If we take the senario at face value, it means that a million Stormtroopers who are basically on foot or in simple transports are going up against a force who routinely deploy tank forces in division strength or attach them to infantry at the platoon level, not to mention the ubiquious IFVs, tankettes and light walkers organically attached to at least a signifigant number of Imperial regiments. The Stormtroopers might find themselves the ones outmanuvered here, and I doubt the average Stormtrooper squad could reliably get the firepower together to take on a Russ.

If we allow for Imperial Army, then the playing field is leveled in other ways. An Imperial Army trooper isn't doing much better than an Imperial Guard counterpart; lightly armoured vest and helmet (though it is indicated these may be limited issue), directed energy carbine, squad tactics, etc. The Imperials also gain air support the Imperial Guard (who relies on the Imperial Navy for aircraft) loses. However, the Imperial Guard has anti-aircraft weapons, enemy air assets are a known quantity. Hydra batteries can still swat at the Army's aircraft. However, the Guard has something the Imperial Army doesn't seem to, in that they have heavy indirect artillery, and tons of it. The Imperial Army might not even have doctrine approprete to countering the Guard's ability to chuck a dozen shells at the Army whenever and wherever they power up their generators to attack.

While titans are somewhat out of the question, superheavy tanks aren't, and I think that a Baneblade (or better, one of the tank titan destroy varients) should be more than capable of blowing a big target like an AT-AT away while turning away the firepower of anything smaller than the Empire's big scary walkers.

Imperial Guard

+ Widespread incorperation and use of a wide variety of armoured vehicles and mechanization
+ Indirect artillery and accompanying doctrine
+ Hardened, experienced and prepared for large-scale chemical warefare (While stormtroopers have NBC gear, Imperial Army mooks don't seem to)
+ Squad-level incorperation of heavy and specialist weapons
+ Trained and prepared to operate without orbital support
- Non-mechanised troops may be entirely without transport
- No organic air cover outside of sparse use of helicopter analogs
- Distinct possibility of dreadfully stupid commanders
- Strategic initiative may suffer due to organizational inertia, lack of transport, or religious fervor

Stormtrooper/Imperial Army

+ Hardened core of fanatically loyal, well equipped infantry
+ Superheavy support elements common
+ Highly standarized supplies, training and equiptment
+ Organic air cover
+ Highly fluid and mobile compared to the Imperial Guard
- Unused to operating in full-scale war or without orbital cover
- Inexperienced with indirect artillery weapons
- Distinct possiblity of dreadfully stupid commanders
- Basic Imperial Army soldiers may or may not reliably be issued basic equipment like body armour or grenades

[Gunhead]

Imperial Guard codex pretty much states IG has separated all major branches to their respective regiments. It also quite clearly says the general mechanization level in a typical IG regiment is low or non existent, with regiments raised on armageddon and few other places being a notable exception to the rule. They also subordinate their artillery assets to individual regiments, which does bolster the firepower of the regiment in question but hinders concentration of indirect assets. With this type of built in rigidity, operational speed is low

-Gunhead

[Aaron]

Yeah, totally depends on the source. If you go with the Cain novels, given a Commander that isn't a total fuckwit, the Guard will assemble into battlegroups similar to today; an armour regiment, artillery, couple infantry etc.

[white_rabbit]

They also subordinate their artillery assets to individual regiments, which does bolster the firepower of the regiment in question but hinders concentration of indirect assets. With this type of built in rigidity, operational speed is low

Do you mean that they have a distinct "artillery" regiment, as opposed to organic artillery in various formations ? Because the intention is not that these formations take the field as a discrete formation all the time, but that an Imperial commander can select appropriately equipped formations from his pool of troops and form a force tailored to his specific needs.

I.e. the Krieg 12120023232th provide the mechanised infantry, and the Burellian Lancers provide artillery, and the 4th Cadian Heavy supply a Baneblade, for Task Force Face Rape or something, under the command of the Krieg Colonel.

Tactica Imperialis goes into a little more depth, with assets such as artillery being coordinated across larger groups of formations to provide support to other elements of the IG force at various levels, from platoons to army level.

The way this goes down is surely heavily dependent on how both sides are equipped, and who is doing the attacking, since we can't really do much with quality of commanders.

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

Are the stormtroopers motorized, though? I've never been sure. Two hundred thousand-plus men for less than twenty thousand vehicles isn't promsing on that score.

Now, this is where things get complicated and branches start getting climbed out along. We have been round this mulberry bush before, and there is a low (S) canon more or less complete order of battle for the Imperial Army, and a statement in the same source that Stormtroopers more or less fit that order of battle, but that source predates the prequels- is in fact from West End, leave us not forget; and since then there has been much material, often of higher canon status, that is not easy to reconcile with that order of battle, and some pieces of kit that should have been in it from the start but simply were not.

Such as juggernauts, floating fortresses, AT-TEs, and virtually everything we see destroyer- based marine divisions use. Now, there are a limited number of options here.

One, go with the complete, published order of battle and as far as possible swap out the listed vehicles for those the Stormtrooper corps is actually known to use, which is essentially where I was going, beause I reckon the other options are even worse;

Two, go with the alternative known order of battle- destroyer carried marine division, twenty-five AT-AT, etc, which as far as I can tell has no surface units apart from those and relies on its' frighteningly many and well armed dropships and transports for tactical mobility and firepower above the foot level, and simply ram together about a hundred of them;

Three, try to come up with a new order of battle that satisfies everything seen in the prequels and series as well as the existing data, which would be wide open to allegations (temptation being what it is, probably justified) of making it up as I, or whoever did it, went along, and would almost certainly result in a lot of banging of heads off of brick walls even if it was done in perfect good faith.

[Gunhead]

It's like this: 1st inf. regiment is given three batteries as indirect assets and 2nd inf. regiment is given the other three. These six batteries are what make up the 1st artillery regiment. Now if at any point 1st or 2nd regiment needs the firepower of all batteries of the 1st artillery, they have to go through however is overall command of all the regiments since he's the one who subordinated artillery assets to the infantry regiments. As per IG codex, regiments generally have no organic heavy artillery, which as such is not a bad thing really.

It gets even more complicated if 1st and 2nd Inf. Regiments are assigned artillery assets from different artillery regiments since arty assets are directly subordinate to the regiment they're supporting. This means all artillery is under control of general Manly who commands all regiments, but precludes the distribution of artillery power by the 1st artillery regiment HQ, since some of the inf. regiments artillery is not subordinate to the 1st artillery HQ at all.

-Gunhead

[Simon_Jester]

Imperial Guard codex pretty much states IG has separated all major branches to their respective regiments. It also quite clearly says the general mechanization level in a typical IG regiment is low or non existent, with regiments raised on armageddon and few other places being a notable exception to the rule. They also subordinate their artillery assets to individual regiments, which does bolster the firepower of the regiment in question but hinders concentration of indirect assets. With this type of built in rigidity, operational speed is low

A Guard infantry regiment typically lacks much in the way of organic vehicle support, but the same Codex notes that over any extended period of operations the regiments tend to assign detachments to each other until you wind up with mixed and matched homogeneous forces.

Also, with hundreds of regiments on-planet, some of those will be the dedicated armor and artillery regiments that have plenty of concentrated heavy firepower. Even when the Guard fails to organize combined arms teams below the regimental level, they put a lot of work into combined arms above the regimental level.

So while this is potentially a problem, it's not necessarily critical- especially since the Guard is perfectly familiar with organizing multi-regiment artillery bombardments up to and beyond the scale of the Somme bombardment.

Though yes, it's going to hurt them if they suddenly need a fire mission that calls on guns from three different regiments at once.

[Connor MacLeod]

Imperial Guard codex pretty much states IG has separated all major branches to their respective regiments. It also quite clearly says the general mechanization level in a typical IG regiment is low or non existent, with regiments raised on armageddon and few other places being a notable exception to the rule. They also subordinate their artillery assets to individual regiments, which does bolster the firepower of the regiment in question but hinders concentration of indirect assets. With this type of built in rigidity, operational speed is low

-Gunhead

Going by the ISB, similar levels of division occur amongst the Imperial army. Hell, the ISB makes no mention at all of the Storm troopers having any organic ground or air vehicles themselves, they're apparently relying on cooperation with the army and the Navy for that stuff. (They're portrayed as part Grenadier, part commando, part cannon fodder.) You would have to make it prequel era stormies (which is a fairly narrow window) or make it infantry only (or attach army units tot he GE stormies.)

Maybe the WOTC or SAga edition stuff puts more highlight on that than I reclal, but its been a long time since I bothered reading those books. Besides, Simon pointed out most of the relevant points your argument missed, except that I'd add that while much of the IG organization is handled in terms of regiments, that is quite often depicted as purely for administrative purposes (eg a regiment of one type is effectively treated as being equal to a regiment of another type, no matter its composition.) This is a point clearly stated in the Tactica Imperialis guidebook.

Moreover, the Codexes have amde it quite clear that IG regiments can and and are (as situations demand) divided up into company level formations, which may also have forces from other regiments attached and/or redistributed depending on needs or circumstances (This can include drop troops, storm troopers, mechanized and armoured forces, artillery, snipers, Ogryns, other specialists, whatever.) Such a practice has some obvious drawbacks compared to having those assets "organic" (unfamiliarity working together being an issue, at least in the short term) but I don't see how that is nearly as inflexible as you are trying to make them out to be.

Edited for clarification

[Gunhead]

It's not a flaw as such, it's more of a case of rigidness inherent to guard doctrine. While mix and matching does happen, we're still talking about infantry with tank support as IFVs and APCs will not magically appear in great numbers if they were not present in the first place. Combined arms require armored transport for the infantry so they can support advancing armor. Having a coordinated attack of armor and infantry at the same time, it's not the same as having integrated infantry support for tanks, which is a cornerstone of combined arms operations.
The stated speed for a leman russ would make it more of an infantry support tank anyway so maybe it's intended, but it would still have far greater endurance over infantry so the need for armored transport is still there.
IG mix and matching is somewhat hodgepodge as there is no guarantee the regiment is constantly supplied with tank support in any great numbers, or even artillery. It's all in the hand of the overall commander who deals these assets. Not to mention all artillery and tank assets are inherently part of the regiment they were raised in, so if the commander of said regiment wants them concentrated to make maintenance or just because he hates infantry, he can easily make the case as they're his troops to begin with.

-Gunhead

[Justice]

You are misinterpreting the Armageddon entry in the Codex. They don't talk about Imperial Governors having problems supporting a company, but companies. They also say "regiments that can equip their companies so" (my emphasis). They aren't referring to a single company within their regiment, but entire regiments equipped so (Hence, Armageddon). This isn't to say there aren't already IFVs in a regiment; they are certainly there already (Armored Fist squads, which would be the ones in a platoon that get a Chimera). But getting more IFVs to form entire companies without taking away from the resources of the rest of the regiment (or regiments) is likely the problem.

[Gunhead]

You are misinterpreting the Armageddon entry in the Codex. They don't talk about Imperial Governors having problems supporting a company, but companies. They also say "regiments that can equip their companies so" (my emphasis). They aren't referring to a single company within their regiment, but entire regiments equipped so (Hence, Armageddon). This isn't to say there aren't already IFVs in a regiment; they are certainly there already (Armored Fist squads, which would be the ones in a platoon that get a Chimera). But getting more IFVs to form entire companies without taking away from the resources of the rest of the regiment (or regiments) is likely the problem.

Having a single or even few companies of mech inf means little when talking about the mechanization level of the whole regiment. Typical IG regiment is leg infantry and may have mech inf companies attached to it but more often not. Mech inf is attached to normal leg infantry regiments from fully mechanized regiments if available. I also didn't misinterpret anything. Armageddon section says fully mechanized regiments are rare. The chimera section says normal foot regiments have little or no mech inf. Now, this is ample to say general mechanization in the IG is non existent or low at best, which I did. Now as no one has made clear what kind of troops are facing each other or the number of troops involved, we're looking at what typically makes up an army. IG can field all mechanized armies if someone can scrounge them together, they have a lot of fully mechanized units by all reason. If there is say 1 mech inf regiment and 2 partially mechanized for every 7 foot regiments, most of the total 10 regiments are still going to fight without IFV support.

IG may have a large number of tanks, but as I said earlier mixing tanks and leg infantry is not the same as having true combined arms formations.

-Gunhead

[Simon_Jester]

Right. Given the stated nature of the Guard, though, we're quite likely to see mechanized infantry units organic to armored regiments, albeit probably in small numbers compared to Guard armor. Heck, under the game rules it's actually impossible to field an armor or artillery force without some kind of infantry support- if you choose to do so, one of your options is mechanized infantry squads in Chimeras.

We may also see dedicated mechanized infantry regiments, with a great deal of light (Chimera-based) armor, Sentinel formations, and the like.

So while full combined arms (as opposed to mere tank/infantry coordination) may be difficult for some Guard formations, others will be quite capable of it. And, again, this weakness is not unique to the Guard; Imperial stormtroopers also tend to show weakness in this area, with a lack of effective IFVs- look at those orders of battle for the Imperial Army, and consider the ratio of infantry to vehicles.

[Gunhead]

Again by IG codex they have little or no infantry in tank regiments, though if they do have some it probably is mech inf. Dispersing tank forces amongst infantry is not a good idea anyway. Infantry should be supporting the tank, not the other way around. Not only does it cause poor concentration of armor, it causes logistical problems as normal inf regiments do not have the means to maintain tanks properly.

Btw. I think guard doctrine is superior here. Massed infantry assault is what they do and have the vehicles, organization and manpower to make it happen. They have some problems, but in this case they cannot be considered crippling and from what I can tell the other side has similar problems, maybe few others on top.

-Gunhead

[Connor MacLeod]

It's not a flaw as such, it's more of a case of rigidness inherent to guard doctrine.

The only "rigidness" comes from whatever officers they have in charge, and officer quality and capabilities is an unknown variable. Otherwise you have to do a better job of qualifying your statement than saying "I've read this, they seem rigid to me."

While mix and matching does happen, we're still talking about infantry with tank support as IFVs and APCs will not magically appear in great numbers if they were not present in the first place. Combined arms require armored transport for the infantry so they can support advancing armor. Having a coordinated attack of armor and infantry at the same time, it's not the same as having integrated infantry support for tanks, which is a cornerstone of combined arms operations.

I do not see where you keep getting these broad generalizations from. They do both "coordinated attacks" and have "integrated support." There are fully mechanised regiments and armoured companies with an incorporated mechanised component (as depicted in Imperial armour 3, for example.) There are even regiments that may have all three (as shown in the novels like Storm of Iron or Only in Death.) although the why that they have them can be various: they were raised that way, they were formed from the remnants of other veteran regiments, etc.) This is again a variable that is entirely up in the air, unless you mysteriously have more information available than what the fandom itself has. The same is even true when it comes to artillery, storm trooper/grenadier/drop troopers, and even the occasional bits of integrated air support (valkyries and Vultures are sometimes part of a regiment organically in one manner or another.)

The stated speed for a leman russ would make it more of an infantry support tank anyway so maybe it's intended, but it would still have far greater endurance over infantry so the need for armored transport is still there.

Except that Russ speed is not fixed, nor is the tank's role. Both are variable. It can depend on the kind of engine, whether it has been modified or not (They can be modified for greater speed, as I have pointed out before.) it can depend on the fuel available, etc. And we have seen them employed in roles other than just "infantry support" so your generalization is flawed anyhow, unless you're deliberately choosing to ignore evidence.

IG mix and matching is somewhat hodgepodge as there is no guarantee the regiment is constantly supplied with tank support in any great numbers, or even artillery. It's all in the hand of the overall commander who deals these assets. Not to mention all artillery and tank assets are inherently part of the regiment they were raised in, so if the commander of said regiment wants them concentrated to make maintenance or just because he hates infantry, he can easily make the case as they're his troops to begin with.

Yes, I already pointed out that both logistics and the officer quality/capability is a highly variable issue and has drawbacks. I do not see why you are choosing to reiterate this point. Are you trying to tell me politics, personal feelings and other stupid shit that happens in the IG does not happen IRL? Or that RL military forces always have perfect logistics that are never threatened, challenged, or ever face shortcomings?

I also am not exactly clear what you are trying to say with your "example" - are you saying that Tank commanders automatically outrank generals, and other higher officers who would handle the dispositions of army forces (if and/or how they are mixed and matched, deployed, etc.) because that is what you are coming across as saying.

Again by IG codex they have little or no infantry in tank regiments, though if they do have some it probably is mech inf. Dispersing tank forces amongst infantry is not a good idea anyway. Infantry should be supporting the tank, not the other way around. Not only does it cause poor concentration of armor, it causes logistical problems as normal inf regiments do not have the means to maintain tanks properly.

So you're basing broad generalzations on your interpretations of a single source? That's an incredibly fucked up way of doing things, especially on this board. Sorry, you're going to have to try much harder if you're trrying ot make a specific point.

[Talk738kno]

On the subject on Imperial Guard artillery, it seems their is they lack of counter battery fire, as in Gunheads the commander opted to have his literally plow threw an Ork Horde to get to their artillery, rather then opting to use counterybattery fire, as they had artillery as well(And given Ork accuracy, i think it would had a favorable outcome.)

[Purple]

Perhaps the ork artillery was mobile or his own was to tied up doing other stuff.
I mean, it is an interesting argument but not definitive proof.