Neo Nazis take over village in East Germany

[His Divine Shadow]

I believe there is a fair amount of guns like SMGs and whatnot floating about, a german friend told me it's quite insane what you find floating about, in one gun amnesty in his little village they had several MP-18s, Lugers and AK rifles. It's hard to estimate ofcourse since all these guns are by definition unregistered, it's one big question mark.


Now I dunno what this group is armed with, SMGs and machine guns are less likely ofcourse, but certainly they must have regular rifles (not auto), those are the most common and easy to get firearms.

Either way I agree cops are likely to be able handle them even if they had full-auto weapons, it's not like those types of guns woud really change the situation in any appreciable way if it came to fighting.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Actually, due to conscription, Germany is probably one of the places where a criminal would know how to properly use an automatic firearm. These aren't some street thugs who think they're badass 'cause they got their hands on a bunch of AKs but have no practical knowledge of their use.

Though it's highly unlikely that if they do have any, that they'd use them. It hurts their cause more than it helps, unless the police start trying to raid of course.

[PeZook]

Conscription doesn't mean everybody served, Schatten. In fact, the Bundsewehr hasn't taken in anywhere close to a significant percentage of the youth they could for years now.

[Thanas]

And Nazis are automatically excluded from the draft.

[Malagar]

And Nazis are automatically excluded from the draft.

How long has it been that way?

[Thanas]

I can't say. However as far as ten years ago it was common knowledge that having a swastika or a conviction was a good way to get thrown out of the draft.

[His Divine Shadow]

Actually, due to conscription, Germany is probably one of the places where a criminal would know how to properly use an automatic firearm. These aren't some street thugs who think they're badass 'cause they got their hands on a bunch of AKs but have no practical knowledge of their use.

Though it's highly unlikely that if they do have any, that they'd use them. It hurts their cause more than it helps, unless the police start trying to raid of course.

Yeah well properly use in most cases just means to swith to semi auto mode and aim before firing.

[Ritterin Sophia]

I can't say. However as far as ten years ago it was common knowledge that having a swastika or a conviction was a good way to get thrown out of the draft.

I thought swastika tattoos were illegal to begin with?

[Thanas]

I can't say. However as far as ten years ago it was common knowledge that having a swastika or a conviction was a good way to get thrown out of the draft.

I thought swastika tattoos were illegal to begin with?

Sure, but unless people take their shirt of in public, how are you going to enforce it?

[Ritterin Sophia]

Sure, but unless people take their shirt of in public, how are you going to enforce it?

Would the Nazis have swastikas if they know there's a chance they could be called up to service and arrested at their physical? I mean I'm sure some are dumb enough to, but surely most are at least aware of the inherent danger of that. That's what they do here in the US, they hide their affiliation and use the existing military system to prepare them with the skills necessary to fight against their perceived oppressors for 'when the time comes'. Is it not the same there?

[Thanas]

Would the Nazis have swastikas if they know there's a chance they could be called up to service and arrested at their physical? I mean I'm sure some are dumb enough to, but surely most are at least aware of the inherent danger of that. That's what they do here in the US, they hide their affiliation and use the existing military system to prepare them with the skills necessary to fight against their perceived oppressors for 'when the time comes'. Is it not the same there?

The Bundeswehr takes a dim view at Nazis and are under very strong scrutiny. Nevertheless, a number of soldiers and officers have been caught attending Nazi events etc. These were promptly thrown out. In any case, it is very hard to make the case of someone being a Nazi instead of being a nationalist with right-wing views (which the Bundeswehr admittedly has gotten a fair share of).

In any case, it hardly means that the guys somehow infiltrate the Bundeswehr regularly. Especially since the culture between the USA and Germany is pretty different in that regard. Opening fire on a police officer is something that is not natural for a German. Especially since for all their stupidity, most of these guys do not want to get caught by the SEK, because when these guys make arrests they often result in grievous injury to the arrestee. There was one case where a guy was permanently disabled in such an arrest, or another who was slammed so hard to the ground that he is now a vegetable.

Besides, shooting at the police is just not that accepted in Germany, not even in those circles. Especailly considering that the last time they went truly violent and firebombed asylum seekers, it nearly destroyed the Neo Nazi movement, as many "moderates" turned away. Besides, these guys have become so accustomed to police raids that even when leaders of their movement were taken into custody, they limited themselves to a protest march.

Rioting seems to be more the case of the left, which makes a pretty standard hobby out of throwing molotov cocktails and who reportedly took shots at police. Same with eco-terrorists, who tried to ambush a police patrol with long stabbing knives (well, more like daggers).

[Skgoa]

I would like to take the time to point out that Thanas' claim that "the left" - as a whole - is violent is utter bullshit. That there are idiots who think they are anarchists/communists/whatever and live out their juvenile idiocy by making asses of themselves (and hurting their own stated goals) does not mean that the huge majority of the "movement" condones violence as any kind of acceptable method.
And while I am at it, I would also like to point out that 1) the huge majority of violent crimes committed by extremists were actually done by right-wingers and 2) at least the left has/had a healthy discourse about the legitimacy of violent actions going, while the other guys simply assert that violence against subhumans (i.e. non-aryans, communists...) or those who asociate with them is right. (no pun intended)


edit: Also, many of the "moderates" aren't right-wing at all. From what I gathered by talking to people from eastern german villages, the NPD has managed to create an illusion of being the only ones who want to do anything against globalization, job loss, capitalism etc. - people in those areas feel very disillusioned and betrayed. This does not mean that they necessarily want the Nazis to be in government, but it means that they will intentionally use their vote to hurt the "big parties".

[Thanas]

I would like to take the time to point out that Thanas' claim that "the left" - as a whole - is violent is utter bullshit. That there are idiots who think they are anarchists/communists/whatever and live out their juvenile idiocy by making asses of themselves (and hurting their own stated goals) does not mean that the huge majority of the "movement" condones violence as any kind of acceptable method.

I thought it should be clear that I was talking about extremists, but apparently you need that spelled out for you.

And while I am at it, I would also like to point out that 1) the huge majority of violent crimes committed by extremists were actually done by right-wingers and

While violent crimes (which do include property damage etc) as a whole are committed much more by the right, assault and battery are committed more by the left than the right. Left wing crimes are also growing at much faster rates ( a staggering 39.4% in the last year) whereas right-wing extremism seems to be stagnant. Stern for both claims.

2) at least the left has/had a healthy discourse about the legitimacy of violent actions going, while the other guys simply assert that violence against subhumans (i.e. non-aryans, communists...) or those who asociate with them is right. (no pun intended)

Incorrect. To my understanding, there is/was a large discourse between whether the Kameradschaften should be used between the Republicans and the NPD. The Nazis in Bavario for example are apparently more modeled after the Austrian extremists like the scumbag FPÖ.

edit: Also, many of the "moderates" aren't right-wing at all. From what I gathered by talking to people from eastern german villages, the NPD has managed to create an illusion of being the only ones who want to do anything against globalization, job loss, capitalism etc. - people in those areas feel very disillusioned and betrayed. This does not mean that they necessarily want the Nazis to be in government, but it means that they will intentionally use their vote to hurt the "big parties".

I have only contempt for them. At least the PDS is trying to distance itself from its dictatorial roots, so voting for them I can to a degree understand (they are still Idiots), but voting for the NPD is just wrong and worthy of condemnation.

[Kamakazie Sith]

In any case, it hardly means that the guys somehow infiltrate the Bundeswehr regularly. Especially since the culture between the USA and Germany is pretty different in that regard. Opening fire on a police officer is something that is not natural for a German. Especially since for all their stupidity, most of these guys do not want to get caught by the SEK, because when these guys make arrests they often result in grievous injury to the arrestee. There was one case where a guy was permanently disabled in such an arrest, or another who was slammed so hard to the ground that he is now a vegetable.

Besides, shooting at the police is just not that accepted in Germany, not even in those circles.

Thanas, you statement has left me curious. I know German police have been killed by gunfire. I just can't find any dedicated sources of information on the internet with reliable figures. Do you have those figures available? If so can you provide them because I'm curious how you concluded that the action of opening fire on the police in Germany is unnatural and unacceptable vs. your conclusion that it is the opposite in the United States.

Your statement could be interpreted in this way "Opening fire on a police officer is something that is natural for an American", and "Shooting at the police is just accepted in the United States".

[Thanas]

Thanas, you statement has left me curious. I know German police have been killed by gunfire. I just can't find any dedicated sources of information on the internet with reliable figures. Do you have those figures available? If so can you provide them because I'm curious how you concluded that the action of opening fire on the police in Germany is unnatural and unacceptable vs. your conclusion that it is the opposite in the United States.

Your statement could be interpreted in this way "Opening fire on a police officer is something that is natural for an American", and "Shooting at the police is just accepted in the United States".

It could, but it was certainly not meant that way, especially not the hilarious interpretation of "shooting police is a natural thing for an american". What image, pray tell, do you think I have of americans?

However, in my opinion, gun violence (and therefore, gun violence against police) is significantly more common in the USA than it is in Germany. I think the figure is something of 32-34 americans killed each day. However I have been unable to find figures for cops killed, so if you could provide these for comparison sake, I would be grateful for that.

That said, I have been able to find figures for Germany.

This is from the German Police officer union: Link and it shows the numbers of police officers killed per annum:

1985 - 3
1986 3
1987 6
1988 5
1989 3
1990 2 (note that post here Germany had a massive population and poverty increase due to reunification)
1991 4
1992 0
1993 7
1994 2
1995 7
1996 2
1997 2
1998 1
1999 2
2000 8
2001 0
2002 1

Note that this includes all kind of attacks, especially knifes, baseball bats etc.


Attempts made with deadly force (again, includes all kinds of attacks):

1985 - 16
1986 - 29
1987 - 44
1988 - 32
1989 - 31
1990 - 36
1991 - 39
1992 - 41
1993 - 44
1994 - 82
1995 - 63
1996 - 65
1997 - 47
1998 - 33
1999 - 50
2000 - 35

Then, there is this stuy from the Kriminalforschungsinstitut Niedersachsen from 2009 (PDF link). I call your attention to page 15:

Drohen mit Schusswaffe (threatened with gun)
1,9 % of 17.722 total cases = 337 cases)

Einsatz von Schusswaffe (attacked with gun)
0,4 % of 17.710 cases = 71 cases

Note that there were a total of 264.000 police officers in Germany in 2009, though I have been unable to find out how many were line officers. So as you can see, the risk of getting shot as a Police officer in Germany is very low. The risk of getting killed is almost nonexistent, as the first table shows.

Anytime a police officer is killed it makes headline national news in Germany. I doubt the same is true for the USA.

[His Divine Shadow]

According to a quick google 162 officers where killed in 2010, 59 from firearms.
http://www.odmp.org/year.php?year=2010

[Eternal_Freedom]

Although I am not German, I can attest to Thanas' comment about attacking police officers is not "natural" for want of a better term.

During a trip to Berlin, my friends and I were surprised by te attitude our German guides had t the police. In England, the attitude is mostly "wow, a copper out on the street."
Whilst in Berlin, the prevalent attitude almost seemed like something from Judge Dredd: "That's a policeman. His word is the law. DO NOT mess with him."

[D.Turtle]

According to a quick google 162 officers where killed in 2010, 59 from firearms.
http://www.odmp.org/year.php?year=2010

That however includes deaths from all causes - including accidents, heart attacks, etc.

Taking those out leaves 77 deaths caused by assault, gunfire, and vehicular assault in 2010.

[Thanas]

I also forgot to point out that my statistics include members of the German swat teams, who kinda live with the idea of getting attacked.

[salm]

Although I am not German, I can attest to Thanas' comment about attacking police officers is not "natural" for want of a better term.

During a trip to Berlin, my friends and I were surprised by te attitude our German guides had t the police. In England, the attitude is mostly "wow, a copper out on the street."
Whilst in Berlin, the prevalent attitude almost seemed like something from Judge Dredd: "That's a policeman. His word is the law. DO NOT mess with him."

Strange. That´s the complete oposite of how i percieve Germans attitudes towards the police. Esspecially in Berlin.

[Thanas]

I think it really depends on what circles you move in. I have seen both reactions.

But yeah, Berlin is famous for not liking authority. Even in Prussian times, they tried to swindle the police and the King. There are some funny stories about Frederick the Great for example.

[Eternal_Freedom]

That might only have been the attitude our guides wanted to impress upon us. Or, it might be that I just noticed the difference between Britain and Germany a lot. Being a tourist it was kinda "wow" whereas I would think people in Germany and Berlin in particular are used to it.

EDIT: On the thread topic, it's disturbing that that such things can happen, and apparently with relative ease.

[PeZook]

I'd also like to note that the trend holds at least for Great Britain and Poland.

Something is clearly very, very wrong with American culture.

[Eternal_Freedom]

My apologies if I'm just being thick, but which trend are you referring to PeZook?

And I would agree that there is something not quite right with American culture, but I can't articulate exactly what that something is. Can you explain what it is you are thinking of?

[[R_H]]

I'd also like to note that the trend holds at least for Great Britain and Poland.

Something is clearly very, very wrong with American culture.

I don't think you can just blame culture, I think society also plays a part.