Response to RedLetterMedia's TPM Review (108 Page PDF)

[Mr Bean]

Here's a thought. When Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan are on the Trade Fed ship, they decide to stow away on separate dropships. Dropships designed to transport droids, not living beings. The course of their journey takes them through the vacuum of space. Two humans, that breathe oxygen, decide to stow away on a dropship that was designed to transport droids. What reason would they have to think that the dropships would meet the necessary requirements to maintain their life? During the trip, why weren't they killed?

The drop ship would be air-tight by default, if it were not it could not survive re-entry and also a non-airtight drop ship would have all sorts of structural issues. Considering they were designed to land even as they took ground fire they kind of have to be air tight.

Meaning unless the droid ships actively purge the atmosphere from their bays that would mean they would have any air left inside when the ships were in the bay and loading droids. Also said cargo bay in addition to whatever air they brought down with them would likely also have emergency survival suits the Jedi could have used. Just because your transport droids today does not mean living beings never take a ride, nor do humanoid technicians need to work on these ships from time to time.

Even without emergency supplies considering SW sublight speeds the time from leaving the bay to entering the atmosphere would have been very short. Less than half an hour short. Considering people can last five minutes in the air pocket in a submerged car, something the size of the drop ship would have over and hour of air just based on what was in the bay's when the hatches secured.

[Darth Fanboy]

You could also consider the fact that they are JEDI and thus know a couple of tricks to keep themselves alive also. Doesn't need much more explaining than that.

[Googley]

Here's a thought. When Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan are on the Trade Fed ship, they decide to stow away on separate dropships. Dropships designed to transport droids, not living beings. The course of their journey takes them through the vacuum of space. Two humans, that breathe oxygen, decide to stow away on a dropship that was designed to transport droids. What reason would they have to think that the dropships would meet the necessary requirements to maintain their life? During the trip, why weren't they killed?

The drop ship would be air-tight by default, if it were not it could not survive re-entry and also a non-airtight drop ship would have all sorts of structural issues. Considering they were designed to land even as they took ground fire they kind of have to be air tight.

I hadn't thought of that. Still, the Jedi had no reason to assume that they wouldn't have purged the atmosphere, given that the Neimoidians still knew they were on board.

Also said cargo bay in addition to whatever air they brought down with them would likely also have emergency survival suits the Jedi could have used. Just because your transport droids today does not mean living beings never take a ride, nor do humanoid technicians need to work on these ships from time to time.

Conjecture.

You could also consider the fact that they are JEDI and thus know a couple of tricks to keep themselves alive also. Doesn't need much more explaining than that.

Ah yes, the one-size-fits-all excuse for bad writing, the force. Excellent contribution, thanks for posting.

[Guardsman Bass]

Ah yes, the one-size-fits-all excuse for bad writing, the force. Excellent contribution, thanks for posting.

We've seen Jedi use the Force to survive in otherwise untenable conditions elsewhere. Remember Obi-wan and Anakin's duel on Mustafar? No normal human being could survive that close to the lava.

[Googley]

Ah yes, the one-size-fits-all excuse for bad writing, the force. Excellent contribution, thanks for posting.

We've seen Jedi use the Force to survive in otherwise untenable conditions elsewhere. Remember Obi-wan and Anakin's duel on Mustafar? No normal human being could survive that close to the lava.

Lava is frequently shown as much less dangerous than it really is.

Not only were they able to survive, but were also somehow able to keep their clothes from catching fire as well? I think lazy writing is a fare more obvious answer than that.

[Mr Bean]

The drop ship would be air-tight by default, if it were not it could not survive re-entry and also a non-airtight drop ship would have all sorts of structural issues. Considering they were designed to land even as they took ground fire they kind of have to be air tight.

I hadn't thought of that. Still, the Jedi had no reason to assume that they wouldn't have purged the atmosphere, given that the Neimoidians still knew they were on board.

When did they know, when they jumped off the transports and fought the droids and sadly accidentally saved Jar Jar. But did they know on the ride down or after they had already arrived?

That makes a big deal, when they know the Jedi's were onboard.

Conjecture.

Conjecture on your part that they knew they were on the transports until they hit the atmosphere and escaped. Otherwise why send out the drop ships to begin with? Would it not be much easier to deal with the Jedi when they are trapped on board your own flag ship instead of letting them escape on the drop ships? And if they do know they were on the drop ship, why the heck would they not simply fly the thing into the ground at 1000 Kps or flush the cargo into space. Or simply engage and blow up the transport with their own turbolasers or melt it's engines and let it idle in space forever.

It makes no sense to purge the atmosphere and trust it killed the Jedi's. There are other reasons to flush the atmosphere having nothing to do with Jedi's but all of those are combat related.

[Metahive]

O no you didn't just link to the Bible of Unholiness!

Force shielding is a canon technique (although only explicetely demonstrated as such in the games), so them blocking the heat on Mustafar with it isn't so far out of the question.

[Googley]

When did they know, when they jumped off the transports and fought the droids and sadly accidentally saved Jar Jar. But did they know on the ride down or after they had already arrived?

That makes a big deal, when they know the Jedi's were onboard.

They knew before the dropships ever left their motherships.

It makes no sense to purge the atmosphere and trust it killed the Jedi's. There are other reasons to flush the atmosphere having nothing to do with Jedi's but all of those are combat related.

They used gas to try and kill them, and assumed it worked. "Destroy what's left of them".

[Metahive]

They knew? If I remember correctly, when Gunray contacted OOM-9, he was telling him that they didn't find them onboard and told him to be on the lookout for them among the troops on the ground.

[Googley]

They knew? If I remember correctly, when Gunray contacted OOM-9, he was telling him that they didn't find them onboard and told him to be on the lookout for them among the troops on the ground.

That was after they had already left. Besides, it doesn't matter when they knew they were on board. They could/should have been purging the oxygen from every dropship that left, if only on the off chance that it would've killed the Jedi. To simply assume that the enemy ships you're about to stow away on will be safe is a great way to get yourself killed.

[Metahive]

D'uh, of course it was after they left, the point is they were still looking for the Jedi on the ship when they had already stowed themselves away. What Gunray should have done was to not launch any transports until the Jedi were found.

[hamtaro]

So it seems like your main point isn't that the plotholes in Star Wars: Episode 1 - The Phantom Menace can be easily rationalized, and that people shouldn't listen to RedLetterMedia guy when he says it is a bad movie. But you're not saying that it's a good movie, is that right?

[Mr Bean]

They knew? If I remember correctly, when Gunray contacted OOM-9, he was telling him that they didn't find them onboard and told him to be on the lookout for them among the troops on the ground.

That was after they had already left. Besides, it doesn't matter when they knew they were on board. They could/should have been purging the oxygen from every dropship that left, if only on the off chance that it would've killed the Jedi. To simply assume that the enemy ships you're about to stow away on will be safe is a great way to get yourself killed.

The point is if they assume they are on the drop ships why let them land? If you think to purge the oxygen why not go one step further and vent the ships to space, wake up a few driods and have them check the now airless ship to see if there are any jedi hiding in the closets?

You know what your saying right?
Gunray:Lets do the somewhat smart thing!
Flunky 1:But what about the smart thing? (Bring the ships back to the capital ship and locked down all transports so the jedi can't escape)
Flunky 2:Or the smartest thing? (Vent to space, hold the ships in orbit while the crews check them over)
Gunray:Quiet you, we are the trade federation and we do the bare minimum despite already had the Jedi's escape from our first two traps.
It's not as if they needed those droid soldiers for another day and a half for the attack on the Capital. They are not calling back some of the landing craft about to hit the Normandy Beaches, but calling them back two weeks before D-Day (To give a comparison time-frame)

[Metahive]

If Gunray had been clever, he would have offered to negotiate with the Naboo on the planet and then rigged the transport bringing the Jedi down to have its engines fail during reentry, burning them up in the atmosphere. Hell, he could have claimed the Naboo shot it down or comitted the sabotage and taken that as the pretext for the invasion, to "restore security". Yeah, pretty unbelievable, but lies can get you far if you lie only boldly and outrageously enough.

[PhilosopherOfSorts]

Here's a thought. When Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan are on the Trade Fed ship, they decide to stow away on separate dropships. Dropships designed to transport droids, not living beings. The course of their journey takes them through the vacuum of space. Two humans, that breathe oxygen, decide to stow away on a dropship that was designed to transport droids. What reason would they have to think that the dropships would meet the necessary requirements to maintain their life? During the trip, why weren't they killed?

Were the dropships specifically designed for droids, or were they just something the Trade Federation had on hand and repurposed, like their battleships? If the dropships were pre-existing equipment and had life support, I can't see the penny-pinching Nemoidians spending the money to have it ripped out.

[Mr Bean]

Were the dropships specifically designed for droids, or were they just something the Trade Federation had on hand and repurposed, like their battleships? If the dropships were pre-existing equipment and had life support, I can't see the penny-pinching Nemoidians spending the money to have it ripped out.

Even that would make little sense as the life support equipment would cost money to remove. You might not run it, but it makes no sense to take it out. It's like taking out the air condition of a car just because you live in Alaska. Yes I suppose it costs you some extra gas mileage over the life of the car in weight. But does it make sense to spend 1000$ removing a feature that comes built in even if you never use it? Because it's not going to cost 1000$ to be put back in.

[Googley]

To simply assume that the enemy ships you're about to stow away on will be safe is a great way to get yourself killed.

[Stark]

Except they did and they were fine. So your point is... Jedi don't fly safe? They're too stupid to lock a door for the ten minutes it takes to reach the surface? They've never been on an orbit to surface flight before? They can't just stop breathing for a while?

When there are actual plot problems, obsessing over minuate like this is really stupid.

[Necroid]

He responded to your response, or whatever. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTpWzg4aiEU Skip to 1:05 if you're impatient.

[adam_grif]

Just came here to post that, lol. Not really a response as much as it is mocking, but...

[Dooey Jo]

So I read through all of that and... I must concur with Vympel and the others. It was pretty good actually. With that font size, plus the images and paragraphing, it's really not that much text. It's also nice that you mostly refrained from the patented SDN Style™ of replying with single sentences to every sentence the opponent writes, and instead responded to each point with an embellished counter-point. I have been waiting for a written break-down of all the points raised in the review, since I have no desire to actually listen and search for them, after having watched a few of the videos. I am now even more convinced of my initial impression, that RLM is just trolling everyone, because... seriously? He must just be laughing about what kind of stupid shit he can get Youtube goblins to believe.

One thing to note, is that the clip he uses to show that everyone was afraid of Lucas during the production (it's one of the parts I saw) is actually from the production of AotC. Ironically, if you watch some more of that documentary (or maybe it's the other one), it turns out people weren't too afraid of him to suggest things of their own. Ben Burtt is editing a sequence and makes a test to use percussion instead of sound effects and music. Lucas thinks it's interesting but not dramatic enough (ps it was just weird) but elects to use idea for the arena fight with the animals. It also turns out that the ILM guys pushed for using a completely CG Yoda, and that Sam Jackson had quite a bit of input on his character. And that's just some of the stuff that's explicitly shown to be other people's ideas. But I don't think this will change anyone's mind. If Rick McCallum came out tomorrow and said that the rumours were full of shit, everyone would just think he was lying.

Except they did and they were fine. So your point is... Jedi don't fly safe? They're too stupid to lock a door for the ten minutes it takes to reach the surface? They've never been on an orbit to surface flight before? They can't just stop breathing for a while?

Turns out RLM's alternative strategy is for the two Jedi to fight everyone on the ship (after fleeing from just two droids), steal a landing craft (which may be remotely operated and not even have hyperdrive) and return to Coruscant (where they will tell the Senate the chancellor sent them on a possibly illegal mission?)

"Good" and "well thought-through" points indeed

"Derrrp why didn't Qui-gon just murder the shit out of Tatooine while Padmé carries away the huge bulky blocks of metal they needed packing animals for"

Also, he thinks a blockade must mean medieval siege.


PS. In case any of the afore-mention youtube idiots get here: Pointing out that a criticism of a movie is full of shit doesn't mean you have to like the movie or even that it's good. Raynor even says so right at the top of the document, which by the above clip I notice RLM didn't read (but then, why would he? Probably some youtube fan sent it to him helpfully "explaining" what it said). Or maybe he really is that stupid, but then I have to wonder how he can operate video editing software besides Windows Movie Maker (or can he???).

[ProfessorKaos64]

While some of Jim's points are very good, he focuses too much on the ideology of it more than anything. Despite some obvious slandering on RLM's part in the reviews, he is spot on about the sheer horrible filmmaking aspects of the films. Where we have story and substance in the old films, the new films, while having some coherent plot, are more about shoving so much action into our faces to make the movies as accessible to a wider audience as possible. This cannot be denied, the films were made to be so, to why? Make money. While there are many elements that bring back good nostalgic experiences in the prequels, after studying them, I can't help but feel that the experience is not genuine star wars. Throw countless books and Canon references in my face, but when the basic principles of star wars and its mythology are turned upside down (i.e. concept of the force being reduced to a blood test), it takes away from its special feeling I once had with the original films. RLM is absolutely right (despite the fake character reviews), that I don't feel strongly about any of the characters. There is no struggle. What struggle you perceive is flamboyant CGI battles and flashy lightsaber battles. Any please refrain from being a douch. It is just my opinion, like RLM has theirs and Jim has his. Just my thoughts.

[Kane Starkiller]

I only skimmed Raynor's review of the review and I have no interest to review his review of the review because that's a whole new level of geek however I will point out the part that in my view illustrates Raynor's lack of understanding of what Stoklasa was all about.
It is at the end of Raynor's review and it concerns Stoklasa's ridicule of the length of the final battle between Obi-Wan and Anakin.
Raynor attempts to rebut it:

Episode IV: A New Hope
Began: The Rebel fighters dive toward the Death Star.
Ended: The Death Star explodes.
Length: 11 minutes

Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back
Began: Luke pursues Boba Fett and the Stormtroopers through the halls of Cloud City.
Ended: Vader cuts off Luke's hand.
Length: 12 minutes

Episode VI: Return of the Jedi
Began: Han's commando team breaks into the shield generator building.
Ended: The second Death Star explodes.
Length: 30 minutes

Episode I: The Phantom Menace
Began: The Trade Federation engages the Gungans.
Ended: Obi-Wan kills Darth Maul
Length: 18 minutes

Episode II: Attack of the Clones
Began: Mace Windu and the other Jedi reveal themselves at the arena.
Ended: Count Dooku escapes.
Length: 20 minutes

As you can see, ROTS's final battle was far shorter than the final battles in three of the other movies. It was about as long as the final battles at the end of the first two celebrated movies.
Once again, one of Stoklasa's claims is refuted with simple fact checking. Once again, he's been caught bashing a prequel movie while giving passes to the original trilogy movies for doing the same thing.

The point is that in say ROTJ battle things happen during the battle other than simply Luke and Vader swinging lightsaber at each other. Luke first refuses to fight and hopes to turn Vader, Emperor then goads Luke into attacking him, Vader intervenes and now Luke fights him even though he doesn't really want to, he then hides from Vader, Vader taunts him with his sister and Luke loses it and lashes out at Vader, Emperor is gloating, Luke refuses ultimately to turn, Emperor is now enraged at the turn of events and tortures Luke, Vader decides to save his son even at the cost of his own life.
In ESB Luke is confident, Vader taunts him, we learn that Vader is just toying with him, Luke manages to seemingly get an upper hand by knocking Vader of the carbonite machine, Vader then demonstrates his true power by ripping shit off the wall and throwing it at Luke, then he cuts of Lukes hand and reveals he is his father, Luke refuses to join him and instead jumps into the abyss.
Each of these events is basically a new battle with new emotional state for the characters and the audience.
In ROTS Anakin and Obi-Wan just keep swinging ligtsabers at each other without any new event changing the nature of the battle. Instead of changing characters' emotional states like in ESB and ROTJ Lucas changes the scenery: they are in the room, now they are on a bridge, bridge is falling, they are dangling on cables, now they are floating in a river of lava. In the end it is boring since no matter how cool the scenery looks it is still scenery.

[Dooey Jo]

Raynor attempts to rebut it:

Yeah maybe you should have just stopped where you said you weren't going to review it instead of proceeding to do so anyway. He's referring to the "zomg teh length" part there. In the following and preceding paragraphs he deals with the emotional aspects.

But what about the emotion? Stoklasa previously stated that emotion was such an important part of a fight, and criticized the lightsaber battle in TPM because Obi-Wan didn't get pissed off like Luke did in ROTJ. Well, the big fight in ROTS certainly showed a lot of emotion from both combatants. The fight in ANH, not so much. In ROTS both characters were living through a tumultuous time and grappling with the betrayal of the other (real or perceived). In ANH, not so much. Old Obi-Wan and Old Vader literally had decades to cool off since their previous conversation. They had accepted everything, and remained quite calm throughout the fight in ANH.

How is it even possible to miss "the point", if you go through literally all points?

[Kane Starkiller]

Read what I actually posted.