(Hypothetical) Relationship beteen FTL travel and FTL comms

[Eternal_Freedom]

This is something that's been rattling around upstairs for a while. If we assume that some form of FTL travel is possible, and we develop it, would we then eventually develop FTL communications? What about vice-versa?

Or, in a simpler form, does one inevitably lead to the other?

[General Zod]

I don't see why you would assume one necessarily follows the other. We can already transmit communications close to the speed of light, but we don't have any vehicles capable of approaching the speed of light and probably won't for a long long time.

[Eternal_Freedom]

That's true, but it is at least possible to travel close to the speed of light. I was thinking more in terms of "if we discover subspace/hypserspace/the warp/whatever travel," would we then develop comms as well?

[General Zod]

That's true, but it is at least possible to travel close to the speed of light. I was thinking more in terms of "if we discover subspace/hypserspace/the warp/whatever travel," would we then develop comms as well?

There's no reason to assume one inherently follow from the other at all if only due to scaling.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Thank you, that nicely answers my question. And it does so in the same direction I was thinking of.

[Dave]

This is something that's been rattling around upstairs for a while. If we assume that some form of FTL travel is possible, and we develop it, would we then eventually develop FTL communications? What about vice-versa?

Or, in a simpler form, does one inevitably lead to the other?

Well, I'd say look at it this way: if you have FTL travel (i.e. can physically transport objects unmodified FTL) then you get FTL communication by way of a courier system. (You load up a disk with all the email that needs to go to Wolf 359, ship it on the next flight there, and then arrange to have someone offload that disk on the other end and dump that email into the system.)

But I'm not real sure about running it the other way around.

[Simon_Jester]

Exactly. We can't turn you into radio waves and send you through the air, even though we can send radio waves anywhere we please. Conversely, being able to build sails does not automatically confer the ability to send messages using the wind.

[Broomstick]

Well, we could "send messages using the wind" by putting them on ships that are wind-powered...

If you have FTL travel then you will have the capability to communicate at at least that speed by sending messages by courier, as pointed out. It's the reverse - having the capability to communicate FTL - that doesn't automatically mean you have FTL travel. That's because information can survive being converted from one media to another - the way that voice can be translated to radio waves, transmitted, then reconverted back to audio waves - but material objects like people can't (so far as we know) be converted to energy or something that travels FTL and back again.

[Ariphaos]

The Traveler RPG is entirely based on that scenario - no FTL communication, so a potential source of revenue for ships is delivering mail.

It's relatively easy to imagine a situation where FTL communication is so insanely energy expensive and bandwidth limited to prohibit any hope of actual FTL travel.

[Isolder74]

Well that depends on how a FTL tech works as well.

For example the idea of how a stargate works is it open a hole in space between two places that allows a object to move from one place to the other. In that case setting up a 'FTL' communication system can be set up by leaving the gate open. or just turning it on, and putting a transceiver on both ends and send a signal between the two. While not technically faster then light, you are still using a normal radio signal, you are sending the information much faster then not having the stargate present would allow.

[Simon_Jester]

Well, we could "send messages using the wind" by putting them on ships that are wind-powered...

That isn't what's meant: that's using the ship as an aid to communications, not using the medium that drives the ship as a medium for communications.

The point being that a means of travel does not imply a means of communication other than courier traffic, and the use of courier traffic is often impractical.

[Broomstick]

Well, if courier is all you've got that's what you use. Maybe not as convenient as radio or telephone but up until around 1900 courier/mail is pretty much what the world ran on.

[Batman]

Well, we could "send messages using the wind" by putting them on ships that are wind-powered...

That isn't what's meant: that's using the ship as an aid to communications, not using the medium that drives the ship as a medium for communications.
The point being that a means of travel does not imply a means of communication other than courier traffic, and the use of courier traffic is often impractical.

I'm sorry, but the point as presented in the OP was does FTL travel invariably lead to FTL communication and vice versa, and FTL travel inevitably DOES lead to FTL communication thanks to couriers. Is it a cumbersome way to do it compared to the present in other universes more tachyonic radio-like methods of communications? Absolutely. Doesn't change the fact that information transfer via FTL couriers is still FTL.

[Norade]

Why even use couriers instead of reusable FTL message canisters?

[Simon_Jester]

Because a reusable FTL message canister is basically just a small automated courier, and is therefore the same thing as a courier?

[Norade]

True, but when I think courier I think of people doing it and getting paid, not a guided canister doing it for cheap. Though I suppose it depends on how easy moving at FTL speeds is and if it's not just easier to send a bunch of info on a passenger flight.

[Broomstick]

True, but when I think courier I think of people doing it and getting paid, not a guided canister doing it for cheap.

I know you young'uns are all texting and e-mail, but tell me you've at least heard of a postal system?

"Doing it for cheap" is, in fact, why postal delivery systems were developed.

[Norade]

True, but when I think courier I think of people doing it and getting paid, not a guided canister doing it for cheap.

I know you young'uns are all texting and e-mail, but tell me you've at least heard of a postal system?

"Doing it for cheap" is, in fact, why postal delivery systems were developed.

Of course I know of the postal system, but a robot postal system with no employees would be even better and cheaper still.

[General Zod]

True, but when I think courier I think of people doing it and getting paid, not a guided canister doing it for cheap.

I know you young'uns are all texting and e-mail, but tell me you've at least heard of a postal system?

"Doing it for cheap" is, in fact, why postal delivery systems were developed.

Of course I know of the postal system, but a robot postal system with no employees would be even better and cheaper still.

Unless you have a method of detecting explosives and other contraband that isn't unreasonably expensive, a robot postal system seems incredibly easy to abuse.

[Batman]

The whole postal system, absolutely. The actual message carriers, not so much. Even today, the checking for explosives isn't done by the people actually carrying the messages (the guys checking your mail or inspecting your packages certainly aren't your mailman or the DHL delivery guy, or the people on the plane for international deliveries).

Of course, that presupposes you can build a guided canister doing it for cheap. What if the smallest FTL capable vehicle you can manage masses in at, say, 20,000 tons? Chances are the operating costs won't really change much by adding the salaries for a few people keeping an eye on things.

[Norade]

The whole postal system, absolutely. The actual message carriers, not so much. Even today, the checking for explosives isn't done by the people actually carrying the messages (the guys checking your mail or inspecting your packages certainly aren't your mailman or the DHL delivery guy, or the people on the plane for international deliveries).

Of course, that presupposes you can build a guided canister doing it for cheap. What if the smallest FTL capable vehicle you can manage masses in at, say, 20,000 tons? Chances are the operating costs won't really change much by adding the salaries for a few people keeping an eye on things.

See above where I say exactly that.

[Simon_Jester]

True, but when I think courier I think of people doing it and getting paid, not a guided canister doing it for cheap.

Of course I know of the postal system, but a robot postal system with no employees would be even better and cheaper still.

So... when you think of a system for physically picking up items of mail and carrying them to other places, you think of expensive systems with lots of people doing it... except when you and think of cheap automated systems doing it.

Which is exactly what people were talking about with message capsules.

[Darth Yoshi]

How would it be cheaper, though? As I understand it, a lot of air freight is sent via commercial airliners rather than dedicated cargo planes, with the rationale that if you're going to be using the fuel to send people into the air anyway, you may as well tack some cargo along with them. There's no reason to set up a new automated courier system, at least for long distances, when you've already got a potential courier in the way of passenger lines.

[Guardsman Bass]

How would it be cheaper, though? As I understand it, a lot of air freight is sent via commercial airliners rather than dedicated cargo planes, with the rationale that if you're going to be using the fuel to send people into the air anyway, you may as well tack some cargo along with them. There's no reason to set up a new automated courier system, at least for long distances, when you've already got a potential courier in the way of passenger lines.

It depends on how fast and easy your FTL travel is. If it's very rapid and easy, you could potentially have automated couriers constantly bouncing back and forth between solar systems sending off signals with updated news and information. It'd be like an occasionally updating news blog or website.

[Gil Hamilton]

Unless you have a method of detecting explosives and other contraband that isn't unreasonably expensive, a robot postal system seems incredibly easy to abuse.

Are you kidding me? People send contraband through the mail now. I can't tell you about how many times my father has told me about parcels breaking open at the US Postal Service BMC he works at and having piles of drugs fall out or mysteriously large sums of money. As long as it is correctly packaged, the post office will quickly and efficiently deliver contraband now.

Besides, remote sensing of explosives and explosive residues is becoming INCREDIBLY sensitive, as our mass specs get smaller and cheaper (particularly if the explosives are full of nitro groups, which are very distinctive). They are putting chemical sniffers in airports with current technology. By the time they fully automate the post office (as opposed to mostly automate it, which is it's current state), chemical sniffers will be super cheap and easy.