Shooting at LA school...

[noncredible]

People were asking why he was carrying a gun. I would just like to point out that on one of the linked sites (I forget which one) it said that he started carrying a gun after he had gotten into a fight.

Of course, there is the obvious question: If he got into another fight, there wouldn't be time to take the gun out of his backpack and fire it.

[weemadando]

Or he was just intending to murder the kid or kids he got in a fight with. Because that's how reasonable people solve problems.

[Block]

Or he was just intending to murder the kid or kids he got in a fight with. Because that's how reasonable people solve problems.

Or he was afraid of getting jumped by a group of kids and needing some way to defend himself. For some reason over the last 10 or 15 years it's become acceptable to act like a pack of wolves rather than being a man and facing someone one on one, settling it and shaking hands after.

[Mr. Coffee]

Or he was just intending to murder the kid or kids he got in a fight with. Because that's how reasonable people solve problems.

Or he was afraid of getting jumped by a group of kids and needing some way to defend himself. For some reason over the last 10 or 15 years it's become acceptable to act like a pack of wolves rather than being a man and facing someone one on one, settling it and shaking hands after.

Yeah, because use of force laws are totally about escalating fists to firearms, *I'm a smarmy asshole*.

Also, seriously, anytime someone says "be a man" in regards to fights I have to chuckle. Only professional atheletes should be in a "fair" fight. Everything else you fight dirty as hell or you just don't fight at all.

[Simon_Jester]

Or he was just intending to murder the kid or kids he got in a fight with. Because that's how reasonable people solve problems.

Or he was afraid of getting jumped by a group of kids and needing some way to defend himself. For some reason over the last 10 or 15 years it's become acceptable to act like a pack of wolves rather than being a man and facing someone one on one, settling it and shaking hands after.

Um, are you saying that students didn't gang up on other students 20 or more years ago?

I find that extremely hard to believe. Humans are pack animals; we've been ganging up on people since the Stone Age.

[weemadando]

As the saying goes: "the best fight is won by 100m and still accelerating".

[weemadando]

Or he was just intending to murder the kid or kids he got in a fight with. Because that's how reasonable people solve problems.

Or he was afraid of getting jumped by a group of kids and needing some way to defend himself. For some reason over the last 10 or 15 years it's become acceptable to act like a pack of wolves rather than being a man and facing someone one on one, settling it and shaking hands after.

Um, are you saying that students didn't gang up on other students 20 or more years ago?

I find that extremely hard to believe. Humans are pack animals; we've been ganging up on people since the Stone Age.

No I think he just exists in some Leave It To Beaver alterniverse where the fight is arranged, all the kids stand around, there's a bit of a scuffle and maybe a torn shirt, then after the fight they shake hands and go out for malted milk together.

Not one where shit like adrenaline kicks in on top of already unstable hormone issues, fight or flight responses happen at a subconscious level and where kids are often unaware of their own strength or capacity to injure. And that's before we enter into the more advanced psychology of pack mentalities, white knights and all the other assorted things that can go horribly fucking wrong.

[Block]

Or he was afraid of getting jumped by a group of kids and needing some way to defend himself. For some reason over the last 10 or 15 years it's become acceptable to act like a pack of wolves rather than being a man and facing someone one on one, settling it and shaking hands after.

Um, are you saying that students didn't gang up on other students 20 or more years ago?

I find that extremely hard to believe. Humans are pack animals; we've been ganging up on people since the Stone Age.

No I think he just exists in some Leave It To Beaver alterniverse where the fight is arranged, all the kids stand around, there's a bit of a scuffle and maybe a torn shirt, then after the fight they shake hands and go out for malted milk together.

Not one where shit like adrenaline kicks in on top of already unstable hormone issues, fight or flight responses happen at a subconscious level and where kids are often unaware of their own strength or capacity to injure. And that's before we enter into the more advanced psychology of pack mentalities, white knights and all the other assorted things that can go horribly fucking wrong.

No, I'm saying in my personal experience, that when I got into a fight in school, which happened more than it probably should have, it was me and the other kid. Friends would circle and chant "Fight!" because apparently two teenagers pounding on eachother is great entertainment. It wasn't let's jump someone as a group, because the people who did that were considered pussies and tended to lose their friends because they weren't willing to stick up for themselves. Shit stopped when someone when down, you didn't exactly become friends after, but it was settled, more or less. That was fairly common where I grew up.

[weemadando]

No, I'm saying in my personal experience, that when I got into a fight in school, which happened more than it probably should have, it was me and the other kid. Friends would circle and chant "Fight!" because apparently two teenagers pounding on eachother is great entertainment. It wasn't let's jump someone as a group, because the people who did that were considered pussies and tended to lose their friends because they weren't willing to stick up for themselves. Shit stopped when someone when down, you didn't exactly become friends after, but it was settled, more or less. That was fairly common where I grew up.

Then consider yourself fucking lucky. Because only a tiny percentage of fights in history actually go like that. And really, I'd be hesitant to even term that a fight. More like a scuffle. Or a disagreement.

[Simon_Jester]

Not one where shit like adrenaline kicks in on top of already unstable hormone issues, fight or flight responses happen at a subconscious level and where kids are often unaware of their own strength or capacity to injure. And that's before we enter into the more advanced psychology of pack mentalities, white knights and all the other assorted things that can go horribly fucking wrong.

I would appreciate your ideas on this subject, if you'd care to discuss it further.

[weemadando]

Not one where shit like adrenaline kicks in on top of already unstable hormone issues, fight or flight responses happen at a subconscious level and where kids are often unaware of their own strength or capacity to injure. And that's before we enter into the more advanced psychology of pack mentalities, white knights and all the other assorted things that can go horribly fucking wrong.

I would appreciate your ideas on this subject, if you'd care to discuss it further.

Some of this comes from several days of professional training I did recently with Conflict Resolution Training & Consulting, some of it comes from training in various martial arts and some from personal and professional experiences with violent or potentially violent situations.

First off - the adrenaline stress response combined with fight or flight. The adrenaline dump is a nasty thing for those who are unused to it (and still deeply unpleasant for those who are) and is one of the primary factors in you feeling "shock" after an incident. It has numerous physiological effects, including increased bloodflow to muscles, constriction of airways and constriction of field of vision (you can see where some of this is going). The constriction of the airway and increased flow to muscles, along with the tightening of most muscles means that bloodflow to the brain is constrained, not just by the use elsewhere, but the constriction of the carotid arteries by the muscles around them. Thus you literally cannot think right in this state. The fight or flight response is pretty intimately tied to this reaction, but has it's own set of problems associated with it. The biggie here is the "strike zone".

For someone who has entered into the fight or flight state, there is a subconscious reaction area in the roughly 1.5-2m around them, but especially ahead of them in their field of view, where if it is impinged on, they will attack before the "reason" part of the brain can interject. This is what is known as the "strike zone", because if you get in this area when someone is agitated, then 9/10 times you're going to get attacked. There have been many, many cases of otherwise professional, reasonable people knocking customers or friends or family the fuck out, because something happened, the fight or flight physiological issues kicked in, then someone either continued to get in their face, or worse - a co-worker or friend or whoever came up behind them, and put a hand on their shoulder to calm them down.

I've been a victim and a perpetrator of this myself, with a few of the incidents occurring at school, well before I was professionally trained in any of this stuff. So here's a pro-tip for the day. If you want to get someone's attention in a situation like that, be metres away, behind an obstacle (table, chairs, whatever) and shout, bang a book on a table or whatever. That way when they snap around to see you, you aren't an immediate threat and you've still got room to escape if they don't start to de-escalate.

Then "white knight" is the third (or fourth, or fifth) party who chimes in thinking that they're helping, or because they want to back up one side or the other. This can lead to incidents where the white knight gets into a strike zone without realising it, or further escalates one side by either cutting off an escape route/triggering a "I'm surrounded" response or just by further pressuring the other party because now they are outnumbered.

By the way - all of this stuff sounds really serious, but it happens to all humans. I bet if you think back at some of the stuff that happened throughout your time at school with this knowledge you'll go: "oh shit, that's exactly what happened when...", even if it never escalated past angry shouting, the triggers for escalation and the like would still be evident.

And when you've got two teenagers in what might be a reasonably well intended friendly scuffle, it can rapidly get out of hand because of the simple physiological factors. Say someone lands a good punch and you get either a sub-concussive trauma or even a concussion. You've got someone who's body is then on auto-pilot with the safety off. Even if it's just for a fraction of a second, that's enough for them to strike back in full adrenaline fueled fury and do some serious damage and risk creating the same response in their opponent. Now imagine the classic "circle of people yelling 'fight'" scenario, where one of the guys in that circle has the fight or flight response kick in for one reason or another... It's clear to see how that has the capacity to turn bad and either turn into a larger brawl or have multiple people turn on someone.

And that's a big thing with teens - they don't realise their own strength a lot of the time and don't have the training or experience to fight safely (for both them and their opponent). And they almost certainly have not been through enough of the adrenaline dumps to have trained themselves to react better to them. And like I mentioned in a prior post - the fact that teens are a mess of hormones and emotions just means that there's just that many more triggers that can set this incidents off. Add cliques, gangs and whatnot into the mix and you get multi-party conflicts with even more complex and dangerous dynamics.

[noncredible]

Going back to the thing I brought up, one person said that maybe the student thought he was going to get jumped. But then there's even less time to reach into your backpack.

[Simon_Jester]

He might think there'd be some advance warning. Or, well, as noted below in another context, he might not have been thinking at all except on the caveman level of "armed -> dangerous -> I am a badass no one wants to mess with."

By the way - all of this stuff sounds really serious, but it happens to all humans. I bet if you think back at some of the stuff that happened throughout your time at school with this knowledge you'll go: "oh shit, that's exactly what happened when...", even if it never escalated past angry shouting, the triggers for escalation and the like would still be evident.

Actually, thinking back on the time I got a five-day suspension for fighting, and could never remember afterwards what the fuck I was thinking hitting that guy with the book... yep. That sounds exactly right.

I should not ask what I was thinking. I should ask if I was thinking.

Thank you.

[noncredible]

Yes, I also think it was probably something along that line. Also, the whole thing of "If I don't have a gun, I have no chance; if I have a gun, I have a slim chance." Of course, this would imply logical thought, so it wouldn't go hand-in-hand with the caveman instinct, so basically we now know that whether he was thinking or not, either way he had a reason for carrying the gun.