Response to RedLetterMedia's TPM Review (108 Page PDF)

[LMSx]

I just can't get behind the marksmanship involved in spying and then pegging the droids from such a long distance away with a capital ship's guns. If you're that good, tag the engines and end the chase right there!

Tagging the engines may well destroy the entire ship. They're power generators being fed with reactant, after all.

That's a true and fair point, but

is the marginal risk added by trying to hit the engines really much greater then the inherent risk of accidentally blowing up the target because you're shooting it in the first place, and from so far away? What if your first shot of a full-strength volley knocks out the shield generator, while the next several shots from that group blow apart the unshielded vessel?

And the premise that specifically targeting the engines is dangerous cuts just as strongly towards accidental hits on the engine. Even a marksmen perfectly lined up on a droid could end up hitting the engine because the pilot tilted the ship a tenth of a tenth of a degree as the gunner was firing.

Compare again to the end of ESB, where I think the Imperials did a solid job shepherding the Falcon around. The TIE fighters were close enough that it's not unreasonable they could try hitting a specific target while the Executor held its fire and played a secondary role waiting to lock on with the non-lethal tractor beam and end the chase. The Trade Federation, instead, just blasted away nonstop.

I think the simplest, most logical explanation is that the droid-pickoff scene was just awfully bad luck for the Queen's cruiser rather then evidence of a deliberate disabling plan. And maybe good luck for R2D2, he'd have spent the rest of his days scrubbing the chrome finish if he hadn't been the last one left to save the day.

[adam_grif]

The Jedi were sent to force the Trade Federation to back down. That was Qui-Gon's mission, and the Trade Fed rightfully read between the lines and came to that same conclusion. What are they going to do if Qui-Gon says he doesn't want to leave? Are they going to force him out?

If the people he's negotiating with inform him that they don't want to negotiate, what is Qui Gon going to do? Pull a ligthsaber? Mind trick the protocol droid? Assuming he's stubborn (to the point of extreme rudeness), then they can just say ok, we'll negotiate. And then gas the room. And leave the room closed for an hour.

Furthermore, the more time they lie to Qui-Gon's face and actively scheme against his life, the more time he has to sense their treacherous actions. In the actual movie, Qui-Gon senses no threat because the Trade Fed was genuinely scared, and didn't intend to kill him. Until Sidious's order, which they immediately implemented with a simultaneous attack on both the ship and the Jedi. That gave minimal, if any time for the Jedi to sense things and react.

Wouldn't sensing their "treachery" make him more inclined to leave in a hurry? Do Jedi senses let him know specifically who is being treacherous, and in exactly what way? Can he sense treachery in a droid? Or is he just going to pull a lightsaber and go to town?

[dookie]

I saw this while browsing 4chan. Reminded me of Raynor's rebuttal. lol

[Jim Raynor]

What on earth is Qui-Gon going to do if they don't want to talk? It's their ship! Lock himself in a closet until they start talking? If the Federation doesn't want to talk the mission is over, pack it up, go home and tell Valorum they're being sassy. I don't think the Jedi were wielding the implication of immediate violence from them,

Then why send Jedi Knights, and not some regular high level civilian representative? Qui-Gon calls the Trade Federation cowardly, and they're too scared to meet him as well. The Jedi even snuck onto the ship while pretending to be no one special. Clearly the plan was to trick the Trade Fed leaders into the same room as the Jedi, and scare them into backing down. It's like a cop walking in with a visible firearm. He doesn't want to use it, but it's there to show you what could happen if you screw with him.

All Qui-Gon has to do is call them on things and assert himself. Insist that they had agreed to negotiations, and that he will not leave until they talk. What are they going to do, pull a gun on a Jedi and escalate things? He can sense what they intend to do and act one step ahead of them.

I was thinking of the Hoth gun, too, but on a personnel level there's also the handheld thingie the Stormtroopers used to KO Leia at the start of ANH and Vader told his boarding party at the end of ESB to set weapons to stun.

Those were anti-personnel blasters being set to stun, not ion cannons for use against starships.

Actually, wait, what other circumstances were there where someone was trying to be capture another ship, cared if they lived, and still blasted away? The TIEs let the Falcon escape from the Death Star, and the Executor was trying to use tractor beams (IIRC) to nab the Falcon with Luke after Cloud City. The TIEs harassing them as they fled Bespin were firing at close range, which does make the alleged "disabling shot" more plausible. Is there a prequel situation?

The capture of the Rebel Blockade Runner at the beginning of ANH, and the Falcon's escape from Tatooine later in the movie.

I just can't get behind the marksmanship involved in spying and then pegging the droids from such a long distance away with a capital ship's guns. If you're that good, tag the engines and end the chase right there!

Engines are located inside the ship, closer to the crew compartments and other vital systems. And as I said before, low-powered weapons could take out droids while posing a minimal threat to the ship itself.

Wouldn't sensing their "treachery" make him more inclined to leave in a hurry? Do Jedi senses let him know specifically who is being treacherous, and in exactly what way? Can he sense treachery in a droid? Or is he just going to pull a lightsaber and go to town?

Qui-Gon is a trained warrior with actual superhuman powers. He's on a mission to help the Naboo. He can and will fight (as proven by the movie) if threatened. Qui-Gon would not kindly leave through the Trade Fed's controlled docking bay, because that makes himself even more vulnerable.

[Jim Raynor]

I saw this while browsing 4chan. Reminded me of Raynor's rebuttal. lol

Good find. I'll hold off on making claims about the overall quality of his arguments in the AOTC and ROTS reviews, since I have not done the exhaustive analysis of them that I have with his TPM review. But I can't say I'm surprised to see these things. The arguments he presented in the parts of those reviews that I've seen or heard about have been awful.

[dookie]

Good find. I'll hold off on making claims about the overall quality of his arguments in the AOTC and ROTS reviews, since I have not done the exhaustive analysis of them that I have with his TPM review. But I can't say I'm surprised to see these things. The arguments he presented in the parts of those reviews that I've seen or heard about have been awful.

That same anonymous user posted again, saying he would do a full rebuttal, just of the Episode III review. Although, I don't know why he wouldn't do the Episode II review first. But it looks like you have someone stepping up to help you, Raynor.

[LMSx]

What on earth is Qui-Gon going to do if they don't want to talk? It's their ship! Lock himself in a closet until they start talking? If the Federation doesn't want to talk the mission is over, pack it up, go home and tell Valorum they're being sassy. I don't think the Jedi were wielding the implication of immediate violence from them,

Then why send Jedi Knights, and not some regular high level civilian representative? Qui-Gon calls the Trade Federation cowardly, and they're too scared to meet him as well. The Jedi even snuck onto the ship while pretending to be no one special. Clearly the plan was to trick the Trade Fed leaders into the same room as the Jedi, and scare them into backing down. It's like a cop walking in with a visible firearm. He doesn't want to use it, but it's there to show you what could happen if you screw with him.

All Qui-Gon has to do is call them on things and assert himself. Insist that they had agreed to negotiations, and that he will not leave until they talk. What are they going to do, pull a gun on a Jedi and escalate things? He can sense what they intend to do and act one step ahead of them.

OK, let's take a step back. Stoklasa's original point was that the easiest possible solution is to tell the Jedi to leave, we're not negotiating. Once they go back to their ship, blow them up and take care of two problems at once! Less moving parts, and so forth.

You called it "seriously flawed" for two reasons. I agree with the second, that waiting around and letting the Jedi precognition pick up the treachery as they walk back to the ship is risky. Fine. But the first reason it's "seriously flawed" is silly. If Qui-Gon is obstinate and refuses to leave, just go with the original movie plan and poison gas them/blow up the ship simultaneously! At least the Federation would have tried making their lives easier, at virtually no cost.

Actually, wait, what other circumstances were there where someone was trying to be capture another ship, cared if they lived, and still blasted away? The TIEs let the Falcon escape from the Death Star, and the Executor was trying to use tractor beams (IIRC) to nab the Falcon with Luke after Cloud City. The TIEs harassing them as they fled Bespin were firing at close range, which does make the alleged "disabling shot" more plausible. Is there a prequel situation?

The capture of the Rebel Blockade Runner at the beginning of ANH, and the Falcon's escape from Tatooine later in the movie.

D'oh, I can't believe I forgot the first one. The ISD *was* almost sitting on top of the ship, though, while moving at about the same speed in the same direction, making any targeted shots easier. The TPM situation of trying to hit a tiny target rocketing by you is extraordinarily more difficult, much less spying on and successfully hitting an even tinier target tootling around on its surface. You can talk about "low power" weapons, but I think my volley example still counts against it- it seems more likely to accidentally drop the shields on the first hit of a volley and then helplessly watch as fully powered shots that were in mid flight hit and blow up the target.

...The subtext here for me is wondering why the crappy pilot moved in a straight line directly at an enemy (apparently "spinning" was invented by Anakin). But, whatever.

Leaving Tatooine I'm not sure the Imperials really cared if they captured the droids or not, blowing them up while escaping on the Falcon seems like it'd have been a functional solution, a far better one then the Trade Federation trying to salvage a situation where Amidala was accidentally killed.

1:40 Plinkett:

"So anyways, it's time to kill off the Jedi...oh good. How do they go about it? Well, they start pumping in an obvious deadly white gas into the room. This alerts them to danger. Well actually, blowing up their ship does...should've pumped in the gas first, then after the Jedis are dead, then blow the ship up?"

If you actually watch the movie, you can hear the gas leaking into the conference room just seconds after the ship is blown up. It was a coordinated attack. Way to nitpick there.
Stoklasa also nitpicks about how the gas wasn't of the odorless and colorless variety. Who the hell cares? It's a movie, people expect to see things.

To be fair, this is not quite a "HOW DO THEY KNOW THEY'RE IN THE VENT SHAFT???ONE" variety nitpick where a tedious extra camera shot would solve the great mystery, the whole movie could have ended right there if they'd used carbon monoxide. I think it's at least worth noting.

Just want to add that I'm around page 60, and think you've done a good job countering some points, particularly the "characterization" bit.

[Srelex]

Good find. I'll hold off on making claims about the overall quality of his arguments in the AOTC and ROTS reviews, since I have not done the exhaustive analysis of them that I have with his TPM review. But I can't say I'm surprised to see these things. The arguments he presented in the parts of those reviews that I've seen or heard about have been awful.

That same anonymous user posted again, saying he would do a full rebuttal, just of the Episode III review. Although, I don't know why he wouldn't do the Episode II review first. But it looks like you have someone stepping up to help you, Raynor.

Maybe he doesn't consider EPII to be worth it. Still, it's something. I wonder if anyone else has attempted such rebuttals, no matter how half-assed.

[Freefall]

Maybe he doesn't consider EPII to be worth it. Still, it's something. I wonder if anyone else has attempted such rebuttals, no matter how half-assed.

I'd think the AotC review would actually be easier to respond to, just because it has quite a lot of filler gags that could be ignored in a critique. Of course, RotS is also generally seen as the best of the prequels, so it could just be that the guy didn't care as much about various negative comments aimed at Ep II.

[A_gx7]

J.R., there is an entire thread at the Something Awful Forums wanting you to post your input on the discussion of RLM there.

http://forums.somethingawful.co*/showth ... highlight=

I would be interested in seeing your response to it.

[Freefall]

Yeah, and having the Mob called in just to deal with a private bet makes sense because...?

1) In the actual movie, Qui-Gon suggests exactly that.

2) Qui-Gon is the one guilty of, at least, two counts of fraud (would be more, but proving he cheated with the die roll could be difficult), meaning he actually has a lot more to worry about here than Watto. I am suggesting Watto could have done his homework and used the information against him, as opposed to just being an idiot chump.

3) After the pod race, Watto had lost everything, so what does he have to lose? If nothing else, Anakin is not only a pod racing champion, but a prodigy and the only human that can even attempt it. That makes him rare, which makes him valuable, so even just retaining ownership of Anakin would be greatly beneficial to him. Plus, just spiting Qui-Gon at that point would probably be worth it.

Also, you would think the Jedi would be better at predicting violent situations and avoiding unecessary ones as per their philosophy. It makes it clear that they aren't just thugs with swords, and meshes better with Obi Wan's enlightened approach in ANH.

You would think. I'm not sure the movies really bear this out though. One of the early scenes in ANH involves Obi-Wan cutting some guy's arm off. In general, they don't actually seem all that averse to violence.

Plus, if we go by Jim Raynor's interpretation, then Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan practically were hired goons sent by Valorum to force the Trade Federation to capitulate.

[/quote]
Well, this would have the advantage of giving Maul more screentime, I'll give it that.[/quote]

See? Not so hard to think of a way to get both spectacle and story relevance out of a scene, now is it?

I mean, as is, even Sebulba is a more fleshed out character than Darth Maul. That's just sad.

[AkalabethAngel]

Hey Jim Raynor,

I find the rebuttle a bit laughable in a lot of ways quite frankly.

Mainly because you ASSUME important things about what's happening on screen. For example, when interviewing the people about characters, you assume everyone's lying. I mean seriously, you've called RLM biased I'm sure numerous times in the document but your own rebuttle is so heavily skewed and biased it's laughable.

You could also read up on some of the following terms too:
Hyperbole
Humour

for starters.


I think also in general, having only read bits and pieces it seems pretty clear that the main problem is that you're nitpicking the argument rather than seeing the larger picture. Of course you've confined yourself to the direct rebuttle, and in doing so, have been even more nitpicky than RLM itself.


I mean hell, the very first page at 1:10 you accuse RLM of "basic smear tactics" and then proceed throughout the article to call the guy clueless, dishonest, lying, etcetera.

It's a fricken joke.

[Formless]

2) Qui-Gon is the one guilty of, at least, two counts of fraud (would be more, but proving he cheated with the die roll could be difficult), meaning he actually has a lot more to worry about here than Watto. I am suggesting Watto could have done his homework and used the information against him, as opposed to just being an idiot chump.

And watto is guilty of two accounts of slavery. You know, which is illegal in the Republic?

The mob isn't actually a legal entity, moron. Qui Gon may not want to attract attention right now, but equally Watto and the Hutts don't want to attract attention from the Jedi either. Two Jedi managed to make the Trade Federation leaders shit their pants, and the Trade Federation has their own private army of fucking droids. You think the mob really wants scrutiny from these people? The only reason Tattooine is a hotspot for organized crime is because the place is beneath the attention of the Republic government. What you are proposing is a nice way to make sure Qui Gon comes back with Mace Windu and who knows how many law enforcers of the Republic and shut down the whole goddamn spaceport, Imperial style. And all because...

Plus, just spiting Qui-Gon at that point would probably be worth it.

...

That's got to be the dumbest argument made in this entire thread.

You would think. I'm not sure the movies really bear this out though. One of the early scenes in ANH involves Obi-Wan cutting some guy's arm off. In general, they don't actually seem all that averse to violence.

Only after Obi Wan tried to peacefully de-escalate on Luke's behalf.

Plus, if we go by Jim Raynor's interpretation, then Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan practically were hired goons sent by Valorum to force the Trade Federation to capitulate.

His interpretation is also that the Trade Federation leaders are bloody cowards, as evidenced by their behavior throughout the affair. Qui Gon probably didn't think any actual violence was going to be necessary to get them to back down.

[Freefall]

And watto is guilty of two accounts of slavery. You know, which is illegal in the Republic?

Slavery is obviously legal on Tattooine.

The mob isn't actually a legal entity, moron.

The mob has certain rules of its own that would effectively become laws if they were in charge of a whole planet. I would think that screwing around with high profile gambling events would be on their watch list, because it means they could potentially be getting screwed out of a lot of money.

Are you seriously suggesting there is no form of law on Tattoine at all? Anyone can do anything and the consequences will be arbitrary?

Qui Gon may not want to attract attention right now, but equally Watto and the Hutts don't want to attract attention from the Jedi either.

I don't recall anything from the movies to suggest the Hutts are particularly worried about the Jedi. It's not like the Republic doesn't already know about them.

Two Jedi managed to make the Trade Federation leaders shit their pants, and the Trade Federation has their own private army of fucking droids.

The Trade Federation also has a representative in the senate. They obviously have a much more interdependent relationship with the Federation than the Hutts, which is why they were so concerned about the legality of their actions on Naboo. This means that getting on the Republic's bad side is going to be a lot more problematic for them. AotC showed that a massed Droid assault could defeat even a fairly large group of Jedi (assuming the confrontation with the Droidekas isn't convincing enough), so it seems their concerns should be much more political than military. On top of that, the Hutts (or at least Jabba) never seem the least bit concerned with Jedi, and even comes across as openly contemptuous of them.

You think the mob really wants scrutiny from these people? The only reason Tattooine is a hotspot for organized crime is because the place is beneath the attention of the Republic government.

I dunno, Clone Wars seemed to indicate differently. Remember that at this point, the Republic doesn't even have an army of its own to fight with.

What you are proposing is a nice way to make sure Qui Gon comes back with Mace Windu and who knows how many law enforcers of the Republic and shut down the whole goddamn spaceport, Imperial style. And all because...

What? Nobody outside their own party even knows Qui-Gon is a Jedi, so I don't see how you think this would enter so heavily into things. And the TF not only invaded a planet, but attempted to murder both the Jedi, and yet, that wasn't enough for Qui-Gon to come back with an army of Jedi to fight them. And again, everyone already knows what the deal with Tattooine is.

Seriously, if the Senate has that hard a time deciding on what to do about one of their own planets getting invaded, what makes you think they'll jump up in arms to bail out a pair of Jedi that aren't supposed to be out there in the first place, and that nobody in the Republic knows is there anyway? Do you think the Jedi would act completely unilaterally? How do you propose the Jedi even find out about it? How do you propose they prove it?

...

That's got to be the dumbest argument made in this entire thread.

You really think Watto is in a position where he wouldn't feel like spiting the guy who just completely ruined him?

Also, while Watto doesn't know this, of course, delaying Qui-Gon by even an hour would allow Darth Maul to catch up with him before being anywhere near his ship, which would obviously create problems for him.

And I never even said the Hutts necessarily try to kill him outright. They may just want to detain him and impound "his" ship, just until proper ownership can be determined, of course. And so what if the Republic finds out and complains? He was caught red handed trying to swindle someone in a bet. They are perfectly justified in punishing him accordingly. If anything, it would call for diplomatic negotiations. Except it would never come to that because Darth Maul would have killed him by then.

Only after Obi Wan tried to peacefully de-escalate on Luke's behalf.

[/quote]

I guess those guys were to strong-minded for the Jedi mind-trick to affect them, and so overwhelmingly dangerous that he couldn't have disabled them any other way besides pulling out his lightsaber and cutting the guy's whole arm off.

I'm not saying the Jedi are bloodthirsty warmongers, just that they don't really embody the spirit of "violence is a last resort" to me.

[Formless]

And watto is guilty of two accounts of slavery. You know, which is illegal in the Republic?

Slavery is obviously legal on Tattooine.

And only because the de facto government is the Hutt crime lords. Crime lords whose rule would be at an end if the Jedi or the Republic ever decided to take issue with them trafficing drugs and slaves through the area. What part of this is so hard to understand, dumbass?

Are you seriously suggesting there is no form of law on Tattoine at all? Anyone can do anything and the consequences will be arbitrary?

So you are saying that the Hutts are a legitimate government with sovereign rule over Tatooine that the Republic must respect? Are you really that braindead?

Here's a hint: in real life, slavers are treated the same way pirates are. Hostis Humani Generis (Enemy of all Humanity). They can be tried by any jurisdiction that can get their hands on them, because their activities cross national borders. The Hutts are de facto criminals for allowing it on Tatooine (as if the fact that they are consistently depicted as CRIME LORDS wasn't enough of a clue).

I don't recall anything from the movies to suggest the Hutts are particularly worried about the Jedi. It's not like the Republic doesn't already know about them.

Our heros were surprised to find out Anakin was a slave and had to be informed that no one was enforcing slavery laws there. They didn't know that their currency could not be exchanged. They had to be informed that the place considered itself independent. Its pretty obvious they thought the planet was considered Republic territory and abided by Republic laws, and The Empire (the sucessor government to the Republic) later treated it as part of their territory. The only reason the Hutts control Tatooine is because the Galactic society is too lazy or apathetic to clean up the place.

The Trade Federation also has a representative in the senate. They obviously have a much more interdependent relationship with the Federation than the Hutts, which is why they were so concerned about the legality of their actions on Naboo. This means that getting on the Republic's bad side is going to be a lot more problematic for them. AotC showed that a massed Droid assault could defeat even a fairly large group of Jedi (assuming the confrontation with the Droidekas isn't convincing enough), so it seems their concerns should be much more political than military. On top of that, the Hutts (or at least Jabba) never seem the least bit concerned with Jedi, and even comes across as openly contemptuous of them.

And the Hutts, who know they are on the wrong side of the law, who don't have political representation or corrupt officials backing them, are more safe from the Jedi than the Trade Federation?

I dunno, Clone Wars seemed to indicate differently. Remember that at this point, the Republic doesn't even have an army of its own to fight with.

No army =! no law enforcement. Also, they do have a Navy. There is no reason they can't shut down the Hutts, they just don't care because the only people who live there otherwise are backwater farmers.

What? Nobody outside their own party even knows Qui-Gon is a Jedi,

Watto knows Qui Gon is a Jedi because Qui Gon tried using the Jedi Mind Trick on him.

Seriously, if the Senate has that hard a time deciding on what to do about one of their own planets getting invaded, what makes you think they'll jump up in arms to bail out a pair of Jedi that aren't supposed to be out there in the first place, and that nobody in the Republic knows is there anyway? Do you think the Jedi would act completely unilaterally? How do you propose the Jedi even find out about it? How do you propose they prove it?

The Jedi Council operates independantly of the Senate, and they don't like it when crime lords fuck with members on official buisness. How dumb do you have to be to not understand this?

You really think Watto is in a position where he wouldn't feel like spiting the guy who just completely ruined him?

Only if he's as stupid or ignorant as you are.

And I never even said the Hutts necessarily try to kill him outright. They may just want to detain him and impound "his" ship, just until proper ownership can be determined, of course.

I see you completely forgot about Return of the Jedi. One half trained Jedi Knight with a few friends from the rebellion was all it took to completely fuck up Jabba's shit. Qui Gon is a Jedi Master with a Padawan, who is only avoiding trouble because he's on a mission. Also, his ship is out in the middle of the desert and no one but his party knows where it is, to say nothing of the fact that no one cares what you park out in the desert except the Sand People. You really don't get this, do you. THE HUTTS HAVE NO REASON TO GIVE A SHIT ABOUT WATTO'S IDIOT ASS, AND WOULD RATHER NOT ATTRACT THE ATTENTION OF THE MOTHERFUCKING JEDI.

And so what if the Republic finds out and complains? He was caught red handed trying to swindle someone in a bet. They are perfectly justified in punishing him accordingly. If anything, it would call for diplomatic negotiations. Except it would never come to that because Darth Maul would have killed him by then.

Except that SLAVERY IS ILLEGAL IN THE GODDAMN REPUBLIC, YOU WORTHLESS BLITHERING RETARD.

I guess those guys were to strong-minded for the Jedi mind-trick to affect them, and so overwhelmingly dangerous that he couldn't have disabled them any other way besides pulling out his lightsaber and cutting the guy's whole arm off.

This is a universe where arms can be raplaced with cybernetics without much hassle or expense. You were saying?

[AkalabethAngel]

It is literally impossible to "miss the point of the review" when you go after practically everything it says, point by point, with timestamps.

No, it is entirely possible to miss the point. Jim Raynor spends SOOO much time nitpicking the entire review that he misses the big picture of why it failed as a movie.

RLM presents a humorous argument to explain to everyone why they didn't like TPM. Raynor rants and makes stuff up for 108 pages in a point by point nitpick fest.

See the point is. Typically, in like the real world (ie the academic world), when someone is trying to disprove a thesis by another individiual they don't quote the entire essay and respond to every fricken sentence. They create their own thesis which disputes and attempts to prove false the major points. From what I've read of this 108 pages this is a concept that Raynor doesn't understand on any level.

[Knife]

No, it is entirely possible to miss the point. Jim Raynor spends SOOO much time nitpicking the entire review that he misses the big picture of why it failed as a movie.

I keep hearing this point, so for the sake of everyone, why don't you go ahead and articulate this big picture point for the rest of us?

[AkalabethAngel]

No, it is entirely possible to miss the point. Jim Raynor spends SOOO much time nitpicking the entire review that he misses the big picture of why it failed as a movie.

I keep hearing this point, so for the sake of everyone, why don't you go ahead and articulate this big picture point for the rest of us?

That the characters are all dry, unemotional boring people which the audience cannot relate to and which don't follow the simple things like common sense. And that the story itself lacks tension and consequence as well as clear motivations on the part of its participants.


As a clear example. What is the Trade Federation doing there? Do they have an agenda of their own? If yes, why do we never see this agenda being pursued? All they do is act as pawns for palpatine.

A clear example is from the opening crawl, new taxes have been introduced which the Federation doesn't much care for so they're blockading a planet in protest. Yet why do we never see the representatives trying to advance this agenda in the senate? And later on, when Valorum is disposed of, and the senator from the world they JUST INVADED is on the ballot and is guarenteed a victory the viceroy and his aid on Naboo don't give too hoots. Sorry, but having the senator from the world you just invaded become chancellor should be a bigger deal. Palpatine can tell he has enough support before the ballot is cast, in a senate with a thousand members don't you think the TF and their allies would have their ear to the ground too and they'd know who was going to be nominated?

Furthermore, if the TF is trying to advance an agenda in the senate, why does Sidious tell them that he'll ensure the senate remains as it is. Don't they want it NOT to remain as it is, don't they want this law repealed? Oh, we're never told are we. Furthermore how can an idiot like Nute Gunray be elected to a position of power in the Trade Federation, and organization which by its very name suggests its a conglomeration of lesser corporations. And furthermore why is Gunray conspiring with a guy he doesn't even know.

The separtists in the next two films are never given clear motivations or agendas of their own either. They just follow Sidious' lead like lambs to the slaughter. If the point is that Sidious is playing both sides, then how are the Separtists being played? Why are they consulting this guy in the first place.

[Imperial528]

The reason why the Viceroy doesn't give a damn that the Senator of Naboo just got elected as Chancellor is because he damn well knows that there is so much bureaucratic muck in the Senate that by the time any force could be mustered to break the blockade then it will already be too late for the inhabitants of Naboo, and that it would take much less time for the law to be repealed. Heck, IIRC Qui-gon and Obi-wan talk about this numerous times, as do the Queen and Palpatine, which is why they gave Valorum a vote of no confidence in the first place, in hopes of getting a more assertive Chancellor, of course, that's not even half the problem as far as corruption and special interests go.

[Jim Raynor]

OK, let's take a step back. Stoklasa's original point was that the easiest possible solution is to tell the Jedi to leave, we're not negotiating. Once they go back to their ship, blow them up and take care of two problems at once! Less moving parts, and so forth.

You know what? I'm not even sure he's saying that, even though I addressed this point a few posts back anyway. Seemed to me like all Stoklasa said was to admit everything to the Jedi upfront and nicely send them back to Coruscant to rat out the Trade Federation...for some reason.

You called it "seriously flawed" for two reasons. I agree with the second, that waiting around and letting the Jedi precognition pick up the treachery as they walk back to the ship is risky. Fine. But the first reason it's "seriously flawed" is silly. If Qui-Gon is obstinate and refuses to leave, just go with the original movie plan and poison gas them/blow up the ship simultaneously! At least the Federation would have tried making their lives easier, at virtually no cost.

It's not like the Jedi senses won't work there. In fact by taking the time to tell him to get the hell out, all while plotting his murder, you're still giving him time to figure things out. While making your hostile intentions clear to him first.

And like so many other things in that RLM "review," even if there was absolutely nothing I could say in the movie's defense on this one point, it doesn't even matter. It doesn't matter to me if you have to think so hard about it to even try to come up with problems. The Trade Federation expected their simultaneous ship destruction and poison attack to kill the Jedi. They underestimated their heroes, and used a seemingly sensible plan that just so happened to fail. Turns out movie villains underestimate the heroes all the time, especially in the beginnings of movies?

In one scene in Batman Begins, Scarecrow has Batman incapacitated with fear gas. Instead of smashing Batman's face in or shooting him, he takes the time to set Batman on fire. Batman jumps out the window, rolls out the flames, and survives. ZOMG what a shitty movie!!!

You can talk about "low power" weapons, but I think my volley example still counts against it- it seems more likely to accidentally drop the shields on the first hit of a volley and then helplessly watch as fully powered shots that were in mid flight hit and blow up the target.

Couldn't they just power down their weapons to something the Naboo ship could handle without being quickly destroyed?

...The subtext here for me is wondering why the crappy pilot moved in a straight line directly at an enemy (apparently "spinning" was invented by Anakin). But, whatever.

Maybe the Naboo ship isn't very good at turning, and just has good linear acceleration. Turning would also slow down its forward movement, meaning more time would be needed to run the blockade. But whatever is right, it's not like we saw the Falcon turning all that much while fleeing Star Destroyers.

Leaving Tatooine I'm not sure the Imperials really cared if they captured the droids or not, blowing them up while escaping on the Falcon seems like it'd have been a functional solution, a far better one then the Trade Federation trying to salvage a situation where Amidala was accidentally killed.

Blowing up the Falcon would mean no confirmation that the wanted droid has been dealt with. All they had on the Falcon was what soem long-nosed alien snitch told them.

To be fair, this is not quite a "HOW DO THEY KNOW THEY'RE IN THE VENT SHAFT???ONE" variety nitpick where a tedious extra camera shot would solve the great mystery, the whole movie could have ended right there if they'd used carbon monoxide. I think it's at least worth noting.

Is carbon monoxide as quick and deadly as whatever fictional gas they used? I really don't care about this part. Again, would anyone want to have an odorless, invisible gas that we'd only know about because Qui-Gon says it's there?

Just want to add that I'm around page 60, and think you've done a good job countering some points, particularly the "characterization" bit.

Thanks.

[Jim Raynor]

No, it is entirely possible to miss the point. Jim Raynor spends SOOO much time nitpicking the entire review that he misses the big picture of why it failed as a movie.

I keep hearing this point, so for the sake of everyone, why don't you go ahead and articulate this big picture point for the rest of us?

That the characters are all dry, unemotional boring people which the audience cannot relate to

Stoklasa spends all of a hanful of minutes (out of seventy) talking about the characters. In that handful of minutes, he demonstrated a complete ignorance about very basic things. The vast majority of his review was useless nitpicking that got things wrong just about every time. So no, I'm still not buying this excuse about his mythical "big picture" that me and everyone else who doesn't like the RLM review is supposedly missing.

and which don't follow the simple things like common sense.

Yet most of Stoklasa's nitpicks and suggested alternative stories made even less sense than the original movie.

As a clear example. What is the Trade Federation doing there? Do they have an agenda of their own? If yes, why do we never see this agenda being pursued? All they do is act as pawns for palpatine.

The Trade Fed with a trade franchise has a problem with taxes on trade routes. Even if you (somehow) didn't catch that, the opening crawl explicitly calls them "greedy." So the greedy robber barons are plundering a poor defenseless world. I'm not seeing the need to flesh that out, especially when it's not even the point of the movie.

A clear example is from the opening crawl, new taxes have been introduced which the Federation doesn't much care for so they're blockading a planet in protest. Yet why do we never see the representatives trying to advance this agenda in the senate?

Because the movie was spent elsewhere, and when they finally got to Coruscant the issue was the invasion, with the Trade Fed trying to deny everything until they could get their legal loophole?

And later on, when Valorum is disposed of, and the senator from the world they JUST INVADED is on the ballot and is guarenteed a victory the viceroy and his aid on Naboo don't give too hoots. Sorry, but having the senator from the world you just invaded become chancellor should be a bigger deal. Palpatine can tell he has enough support before the ballot is cast, in a senate with a thousand members don't you think the TF and their allies would have their ear to the ground too and they'd know who was going to be nominated?

There are literally a few minutes between the point when Palpatine announces his nomination, and when the heroes return to Naboo to fight.

Furthermore, if the TF is trying to advance an agenda in the senate, why does Sidious tell them that he'll ensure the senate remains as it is. Don't they want it NOT to remain as it is, don't they want this law repealed?

Sidious tells them that he'll keep the Senate from taking them down over the invasion. Sidious is also a liar telling them whatever they want to hear.

Oh, we're never told are we. Furthermore how can an idiot like Nute Gunray be elected to a position of power in the Trade Federation, and organization which by its very name suggests its a conglomeration of lesser corporations.

Don't act like idiots haven't been elected before in the real world.

The separtists in the next two films are never given clear motivations or agendas of their own either. They just follow Sidious' lead like lambs to the slaughter. If the point is that Sidious is playing both sides, then how are the Separtists being played? Why are they consulting this guy in the first place.

The movie didn't spend time fleshing out the Separatist movement. But the word "separatist" makes it clear that they don't want to be ruled by the Republic. Given what we see of the Republic government in TPM, can you really blame anyone for wanting out?

[Jim Raynor]

J.R., there is an entire thread at the Something Awful Forums wanting you to post your input on the discussion of RLM there.

http://forums.somethingawful.co*/showthread.php?threadid=3377872&highlight=

I would be interested in seeing your response to it.

The link doesn't work. However, I've skimmed the Something Awful forums and I've seen some of the same excuses being made there, that were dealt with in this thread. All that stuff about how I missed the great "big picture" or "main point" of the RLM review that somehow doesn't involve the long stream of nitpicks that make up most of his review. I don't think I should even spend the time there, especially since I don't even have an account on that forum. But if there's anything interesting from there, let me know.

[Formless]

Here is the thing about "bigger picture" arguments: if you have one, you should be able to summarize it, and the rest of the article or essay or review or whatever piece of writing you made should be in support of it. If you do have a "bigger picture, but made no effort to summarize it anywhere in the piece that's just poor writing. If you can't summarize it, you probably don't have one.

[Knife]

That the characters are all dry, unemotional boring people which the audience cannot relate to and which don't follow the simple things like common sense. And that the story itself lacks tension and consequence as well as clear motivations on the part of its participants.

If that is his 'over all point' then that's fine but I don't see how it is objective nor some great scathing retort of the Star Wars saga.

As a clear example. What is the Trade Federation doing there? Do they have an agenda of their own? If yes, why do we never see this agenda being pursued? All they do is act as pawns for palpatine.

Oh Jeebus, The badguys that were clearly introduced as badguys, reinforced with that they are greedy corporations as badguys didn't have enough of a reason to be badguys for you. Sorry, that rings hollow. If you don't like them, cool. It's a subjective thing. They were neither simple, dry, or boring. They were greedy businessmen gone all rogue on simple back woods folk of Naboo.

A clear example is from the opening crawl, new taxes have been introduced which the Federation doesn't much care for so they're blockading a planet in protest. Yet why do we never see the representatives trying to advance this agenda in the senate? And later on, when Valorum is disposed of, and the senator from the world they JUST INVADED is on the ballot and is guarenteed a victory the viceroy and his aid on Naboo don't give too hoots. Sorry, but having the senator from the world you just invaded become chancellor should be a bigger deal. Palpatine can tell he has enough support before the ballot is cast, in a senate with a thousand members don't you think the TF and their allies would have their ear to the ground too and they'd know who was going to be nominated?

Not only are they badguys, they are really the stooges for the real badguy. Again, the movie makes this pretty damn clear and I see it takes you some nitpicking to get around the fact the movie makes it clear they are greedy, stupid businessmen gone rogue and joined up with a mysterious person with power in the Senate who wouldn't give them just money, but a shit load of money.

Furthermore, if the TF is trying to advance an agenda in the senate, why does Sidious tell them that he'll ensure the senate remains as it is. Don't they want it NOT to remain as it is, don't they want this law repealed? Oh, we're never told are we. Furthermore how can an idiot like Nute Gunray be elected to a position of power in the Trade Federation, and organization which by its very name suggests its a conglomeration of lesser corporations. And furthermore why is Gunray conspiring with a guy he doesn't even know.

They've made some sort of deal with Sidious, again the movie made that pretty damn clear. What the specifics of that 'deal' is, we don't know BUT we know it was enough for the Trade Federation to go into business with the Sith. This isn't so difficult dude.

The separtists in the next two films are never given clear motivations or agendas of their own either. They just follow Sidious' lead like lambs to the slaughter. If the point is that Sidious is playing both sides, then how are the Separtists being played? Why are they consulting this guy in the first place.

They are pattsies, you know for a bunch of people who are 'oh so literary analysis' you're not so good at picking out obvious themes.

[AkalabethAngel]

The reason why the Viceroy doesn't give a damn that the Senator of Naboo just got elected as Chancellor is because he damn well knows that there is so much bureaucratic muck in the Senate that by the time any force could be mustered to break the blockade then it will already be too late for the inhabitants of Naboo, and that it would take much less time for the law to be repealed. Heck, IIRC Qui-gon and Obi-wan talk about this numerous times, as do the Queen and Palpatine, which is why they gave Valorum a vote of no confidence in the first place, in hopes of getting a more assertive Chancellor, of course, that's not even half the problem as far as corruption and special interests go.

Dude, I don't think you understand. It's not about Naboo. It's about the Tax Laws. It's a protest. The Trade Federation doesn't like tax laws, so they're blockading a world in an effort to get their way. Either that or the opening title crawl is completely irrelevant.


Furthermore, according to Jim Raynor, the whole blockade from Sidious' point of view is about garnering himself more power in the senate, correct? He's creating a crisis around naboo, to gain himself sympathy. Then when he attacks the Jedi and wants this treaty signed these acts are both intended to prolong the crisis, allowing the Senator to continue gaining power.

Yet despite this apparent need for power, when Valorum is disposed of and Palpy's put on the ballot he's got no problems getting elected. He knows the outcome of the vote before the ballots are even cast. This despite the fact that not one of a thousand representatives stepped forward to support the Queen in her appeal for help.

So the whole plot is rendered null and void. The crisis is there to gain Palpy power. But he already has enough support. So the whole blockade/treaty fiasco is utter garbage for Palpy's plans at least.

That the characters are all dry, unemotional boring people which the audience cannot relate to

Stoklasa spends all of a hanful of minutes (out of seventy) talking about the characters. In that handful of minutes, he demonstrated a complete ignorance about very basic things. The vast majority of his review was useless nitpicking that got things wrong just about every time. So no, I'm still not buying this excuse about his mythical "big picture" that me and everyone else who doesn't like the RLM review is supposedly missing.

Oh yes. And what was your response "these people are all liars!"?
And am I'm supposed to believe you why exactly?

As a clear example. What is the Trade Federation doing there? Do they have an agenda of their own? If yes, why do we never see this agenda being pursued? All they do is act as pawns for palpatine.

The Trade Fed with a trade franchise has a problem with taxes on trade routes. Even if you (somehow) didn't catch that, the opening crawl explicitly calls them "greedy." So the greedy robber barons are plundering a poor defenseless world. I'm not seeing the need to flesh that out, especially when it's not even the point of the movie.

Plunder? What did they plunder? Now you're just making stuff up. In your rebuttle you said they were blockading to protest the new tax laws. Now they're plundering? Which is it? I didn't see any plundering. I didn't see them land any mining equipment. And all of their big ships dissapeared without filling their cargo holds with goods. So what, plundering?? I don't think so. And if they only ever intended to plunder the place, why not just invade it right away? Why blockade at all? That doesn't make sense. Even at the start, Sidious tells them that they have to advance their time table and begin the invasion now. So they were going to sit on their butts for an even greater length of time had not the Jedi showed up. So why wait if all they want to do is plunder it?

Also, I would think that plundering one world would not be compensation for what is presumably galaxy-spanning tax laws which would affect their business in a systemic way. I mean, plundering a world is a one-off cash grab. It's not going to change the long term problems.

A clear example is from the opening crawl, new taxes have been introduced which the Federation doesn't much care for so they're blockading a planet in protest. Yet why do we never see the representatives trying to advance this agenda in the senate?

Because the movie was spent elsewhere, and when they finally got to Coruscant the issue was the invasion, with the Trade Fed trying to deny everything until they could get their legal loophole?

You mean because the movie never told us? Yes you would be correct.
Here's a hint guy. In ANH, the movie follows the Death Star + crew and it follows Luke and friends. You can show TWO sides to an event. It's pretty basic story telling and gives the bad guys some character and an agenda. The two things which are consistently lacking from these movies.

And later on, when Valorum is disposed of, and the senator from the world they JUST INVADED is on the ballot and is guarenteed a victory the viceroy and his aid on Naboo don't give too hoots. Sorry, but having the senator from the world you just invaded become chancellor should be a bigger deal. Palpatine can tell he has enough support before the ballot is cast, in a senate with a thousand members don't you think the TF and their allies would have their ear to the ground too and they'd know who was going to be nominated?

There are literally a few minutes between the point when Palpatine announces his nomination, and when the heroes return to Naboo to fight.

So what? It doesn't take time to pack your things, get to your car? The world has FTL communications. The guys on Naboo should now INSTANTLY. Even Hyperspeed isn't that fast. And after Palpatine says his win is assured it shows sidious talking to the two mooks on Naboo.

Furthermore, if the TF is trying to advance an agenda in the senate, why does Sidious tell them that he'll ensure the senate remains as it is. Don't they want it NOT to remain as it is, don't they want this law repealed?

Sidious tells them that he'll keep the Senate from taking them down over the invasion. Sidious is also a liar telling them whatever they want to hear.

You don't understand. If the Trade Federation has an agenda that they want to pursue in the senate. That is, changing these tax laws. Then they want things to MOVE FORWARD in the senate. They're getting taxed. They don't want to be taxed. They want the senate to change this. Having things "stay as they are" does not help them.

Oh, we're never told are we. Furthermore how can an idiot like Nute Gunray be elected to a position of power in the Trade Federation, and organization which by its very name suggests its a conglomeration of lesser corporations.

Don't act like idiots haven't been elected before in the real world.

Gloss it over fanboy, gloss it over.
There's a fundamental difference between the OT and the PT.

In the OT, no one is an idiot.
In the PT, everyone except Palpatine is an idiot.

When everyone just follows along with what Palpatine wants and play right into his hands where's the tension? Why the hell should we care what's going on.

And furthermore for the sake of argument, if idiots ARE elected in the real world, it's because there are typically people behind the scenes pulling the strings. Who's pulling Nute Gunray's strings? Palpatine? Yes. But Palpatine's not in the trade Federation. So even if Nute was a complete moron he should have some guy behind him telling him what to do, telling him what to do in the best interests of the Trade Federation (not Palpatine). The Trade Federation should NOT be that stupid given how much power they have. They've got more military power than even the Republic at that time by the looks of it.

The separtists in the next two films are never given clear motivations or agendas of their own either. They just follow Sidious' lead like lambs to the slaughter. If the point is that Sidious is playing both sides, then how are the Separtists being played? Why are they consulting this guy in the first place.

The movie didn't spend time fleshing out the Separatist movement. But the word "separatist" makes it clear that they don't want to be ruled by the Republic. Given what we see of the Republic government in TPM, can you really blame anyone for wanting out?

Yes so if they are separatists why are they aggressively attacking republic worlds like Kashyyk. People who want independence generally just defend their sovereignty. They don't go on a murderous war of aggression against their former masters.


You're missing the fundamental problem. The overarching idea of the prequels is this:
Palpatine is manipulating the bad guys to help advance him into a position of power while simultaneously changing the Republic into the Galactic Empire.

If the bad guys, whether they be the Trade Federation or the Separtist alliance in the later films, if they don't have a clear objective then they're nothing but pawns for palpatine. Ideally both sides of the war should be smart. The separtists should have their own goals and ambitions. The Republic should be fighting for what they believe in. And at the end Palpatine is like "psych! Fooled you all! Now I'm the emperor bwahahha".

But instead it's just like everyone's a complete fricken idiot and do whatever he wants them to. It's just NOT believable.

That the characters are all dry, unemotional boring people which the audience cannot relate to and which don't follow the simple things like common sense. And that the story itself lacks tension and consequence as well as clear motivations on the part of its participants.

If that is his 'over all point' then that's fine but I don't see how it is objective nor some great scathing retort of the Star Wars saga.

Yes that is his over all point. People can't connect with these movies because no one cares about any of the characters because they're all a bunch of jackasses. They don't emote. They're dumb idiots. And we can't relate to them at all. Sorry to say but in ROTS one of the few times I actually cared is when Jimmy Smits sees the Jedi kid bite it at the temple and actually shouts "NO" because he actually cares about a fellow human-alien being. Compare this scene to the scene where Obi Wan watched a holorecording and delivers some emotionless, dry, boring dialogue about "I can't bear to watch any more". Why the hell should I care? Obi Wan should be weeping. He should be trashing the place.

As a clear example. What is the Trade Federation doing there? Do they have an agenda of their own? If yes, why do we never see this agenda being pursued? All they do is act as pawns for palpatine.

Oh Jeebus, The badguys that were clearly introduced as badguys, reinforced with that they are greedy corporations as badguys didn't have enough of a reason to be badguys for you. Sorry, that rings hollow. If you don't like them, cool. It's a subjective thing. They were neither simple, dry, or boring. They were greedy businessmen gone all rogue on simple back woods folk of Naboo.

Okay, so let me get this straight. "the bad guys that were clearly introduced as bad guys, they are greedy corporations". And then you follows this up by saying they're not "simple, dry, or boring". Hahahha. That's funny.

Not only are they badguys, they are really the stooges for the real badguy. Again, the movie makes this pretty damn clear and I see it takes you some nitpicking to get around the fact the movie makes it clear they are greedy, stupid businessmen gone rogue and joined up with a mysterious person with power in the Senate who wouldn't give them just money, but a shit load of money.

Don't you get it. Business men with that much power, and that much money, aren't stupid.
You don't get a fleet of battleships, by being a moron. You get a job as a janitor if you're a moron.

They've made some sort of deal with Sidious, again the movie made that pretty damn clear. What the specifics of that 'deal' is, we don't know BUT we know it was enough for the Trade Federation to go into business with the Sith. This isn't so difficult dude.

Yes, it is difficult. Because if we don't know what they want, we don't care. What you don't seem to understand is that the Trade Federation has it's own agenda which Palpatine is helping them with, but covertly he's really just using them to advance his own agenda. If the Trade Federation's agenda is never explored or made clear, why should we care about them? They have no motivations. They're just pawns of Sidious, which makes his betrayal of them in ROTS completely pointless. It's like a boss killing his own guys. They weren't betrayed, they were downsized, because they never had any plans or ambitions of their own. This stuff is important.

The separtists in the next two films are never given clear motivations or agendas of their own either. They just follow Sidious' lead like lambs to the slaughter. If the point is that Sidious is playing both sides, then how are the Separtists being played? Why are they consulting this guy in the first place.

They are pattsies, you know for a bunch of people who are 'oh so literary analysis' you're not so good at picking out obvious themes.

I don't care what the theme. The premise is not believable. And if the premise is not believable why should I give a shit about the story?