SDN Worlds 4 Commentary Thread IV

[Alyrium Denryle]

Hey guys. Sorry about the lack of activity. Check venting. I will try to get back into the swing of things.

[fgalkin]

Construction costs of carriers is a problematic issue under the rules, one that was not resolved gracefully at the beginning in my opinion. However, carrier small craft wings integrated into the order of battle at game start are free- a 50$ carrier comes with its small craft complement and still only counts as 50 points out of your starting order of battle.

It does? I have not seen that anywhere in the rules. In fact, that is going to force me to re-calculate my whole fleet. Crap.[/quote]I sincerely apologize; that change was made very late in the game start process. You're not the first person to run into who had trouble because it was undocumented. I should have warned you, should have remembered to warn you.

Hint: The easiest way to deal with this problem is to either increase your carrier force by 50% (replace two carriers in your startup with three carriers of the same point cost), or to simply increase the point value of all the carriers by 50% (60 point carriers become 90 point carriers).

Either of these solutions is mathematically simple and requires no major rebalancing of fleet deployments, in my opinion. If you have battleships with a handful of fighters on board, of course, there's more of a problem... but your arguments suggest that you think doing so is a bad idea anyway.[/quote]
I think it's a bad idea to use strike craft in combat in anything but massive swarms. That doesn't mean I'm against the use of strike craft, far from it, I am probably one of the biggest users in the known galaxy. The primary reason is, of course, that I'm living in the shoals, where sensor ranges are crap. So, the vast majority of my ships actually carry strike craft to some degree.

So, anyways, this is what my navy looks like after the re-calculation:

The Darkness That Comes Before- Mobile Warp Gate/Battlestation: 1x4500 (formerly 4000), Carrier Capacity: 500

Forerunner Fleet (hyper-capable ships for the defense of spacelanes)
Attack Ships- new build: 9x800, Carrier Capacity: 0
Carriers: 2x300, Carrier Capacity: 150
Attack Ships- old build: 20x240, Carrier Capacity: 0
Light Carriers: 4x 100, Carrier Capacity: 50
Patrol Ships 65x65 (formerly 60), Carrier Capacity: 5
Missile Escorts: 9x65 (formerly 60), Carrier Capacity: 0
Reconnaissance Ship 1x65 (formerly 60), Carrier Capacity: 32.5
Large Stealth Ship 5x65 (formerly 60), Carrier Capacity: 10
Stealth Ship 25x20, Carrier Capacity: 10

Guardian Fleet (Heim-only ships for system defense):
Space Kraken- 12x500, Carrier Capacity: Whaaaa?
Guardian Ship- 100x150, Carrier Capacity: 0
4250 points worth of Strike Craft (based in-system)

I had to tweak ship numbers in addition to changing the point settings, but it's all good now.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[fgalkin]

Ok, a question about new ship construction: do you pay for everything in advance, or can you split the costs up for the duration of the construction. For example, if building a $300 carrier, do I pay $300 up front, or can I pay $200 the first year and $100 the second year?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Simon_Jester]

You can split construction costs. I choose not to do so because it complicates my budgets, but you can do it.

The number of strike craft you need to take on a given target depends heavily on the size of the target; not all battles are major fleet actions with Superheavy combatants on both sides.

Aside from that, you might want to post your navy lineup on the wiki.

Also, aggregate points of carrier capacity...

2*150 + 4*50 + 65*5 + 1*32.5 + 5*10 + 25*10... (rounding)

300+200+325+33+50+250...

500+358+300...

1158 points of small craft capacity on your 'forerunner fleet', plus 4250 points of system defense craft, plus 500 points on the Demonmetaldeath Star... totals around 5900 points small craft.

Using myself as a standard of comparison, I have around 380 cutter tenders and strike cruisers carrying 10 points of cutters each, and eighteen fleet carriers at 75 points fighters each... 3800+1350 = 5150 points.

So yeah, you're definitely up there but I wouldn't assume you're that far out of reach of the carrier-heavy navies.

[Beowulf]

You can split construction costs. I choose not to do so because it complicates my budgets, but you can do it.

... snip ...

1158 points of small craft capacity on your 'forerunner fleet', plus 4250 points of system defense craft, plus 500 points on the Demonmetaldeath Star... totals around 5900 points small craft.

Using myself as a standard of comparison, I have around 380 cutter tenders and strike cruisers carrying 10 points of cutters each, and eighteen fleet carriers at 75 points fighters each... 3800+1350 = 5150 points.

So yeah, you're definitely up there but I wouldn't assume you're that far out of reach of the carrier-heavy navies.

I did split up construction costs on my new battleships, as it was actually easier to do so(allows me to reuse most of the budget for FY3401).

FYI: I think I may actually have one of the largest strikecraft fleet in the game: 200 carriers @ 120pts = 12000 pts of strike craft. Plus what I've built in FY3400, plus an additional 2k+ pts in random strike craft.

[RogueIce]

FYI: I think I may actually have one of the largest strikecraft fleet in the game: 200 carriers @ 120pts = 12000 pts of strike craft. Plus what I've built in FY3400, plus an additional 2k+ pts in random strike craft.

Beats my 7264...

But then you're one of those ZERG RUSH KEKEKE bastards.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

There's a good reason why I have 39 Scutum cruisers (300pts) and more to come: To fend off all these damn swarms of fighters or Karlacks.

[Simon_Jester]

[points menacingly at Rogue]

Are you calling Audrey Cardwell a Zergling? Grr! Grr!

There's a good reason why I have 39 Scutum cruisers (300pts) and more to come: To fend off all these damn swarms of fighters or Karlacks.

You know, Fin, the Royal Navy came to an interesting conclusion that I recall during WWII.

When you build ships of a dedicated 'hunter' class, designed to counter a specific thing that would otherwise target other, more valuable ships... it does not pay to make the hunters so large and valuable that they become worthwhile prey in their own right.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

[points menacingly at Rogue]

Are you calling Audrey Cardwell a Zergling? Grr! Grr!

There's a good reason why I have 39 Scutum cruisers (300pts) and more to come: To fend off all these damn swarms of fighters or Karlacks.

You know, Fin, the Royal Navy came to an interesting conclusion that I recall during WWII.

When you build ships of a dedicated 'hunter' class, designed to counter a specific thing that would otherwise target other, more valuable ships... it does not pay to make the hunters so large and valuable that they become worthwhile prey in their own right.

They are "Aegis in Space" cruisers. They are meant spam space to the brim with missiles. Sending waves of starfighters against Karlacks was been deemed a stupid idea centuries ago.

[RogueIce]

[points menacingly at Rogue]

Are you calling Audrey Cardwell a Zergling? Grr! Grr!

Since that was directed at Beo...no I'm not.

[Simon_Jester]

OK then.

[Mayabird]

Hey everyone, did I ever explicitly absolutely state that the Avians had definitely been there when the Thinkers punched their way out of ultra-hell with the Aggregates and Modulars in tow?
Spoiler

See? I didn't actually state that, but you've been assuming that.

Spoiler

Yeah, I'm retconning that.

[Simon_Jester]

Retconning that out? That is... unpleasantly disappointing.

[fgalkin]

It makes sense, though. The Refugees did not start out as little blobs that had to get together to form a personality, and needed to ride a cart to get around, the scary demon things made them so. The birdies are still able-bodied, and in possession of their own individual minds, so, they were picked up along the way after the Refugees escaped.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Shroom Man 777]

So, in a way, they were like the fookin' prawns once?

[Simon_Jester]

It makes sense, though. The Refugees did not start out as little blobs that had to get together to form a personality, and needed to ride a cart to get around, the scary demon things made them so. The birdies are still able-bodied, and in possession of their own individual minds, so, they were picked up along the way after the Refugees escaped.

I don't know about that.

There are very significant differences between the Aggregates and the Modulars, after all; there's no reason to assume that dividing a being's consciousness and distributing it among multiple bodies is what the evil gods do to everything.

I had figured (and I believe I mentioned this to Amy at one point, which is why I'm unhappy she didn't tell me) that the Avians were not themselves a technologically advanced species, but got scooped up anyway and dumped in the hell-dimension along with someone else who drew the gods' attention.

I dunno. To me it feels like this... lessens the significance when the Avians talk or think about the evil gods. And since the Avians are the primary representatives of the Refuge, the 'face' of it... well, I liked it better without the retcon.

[Shroom Man 777]

Maybe they were there when the evil gods first tried chasing after the Refugees? While they may not have gone to the hell dimension, they might've encountered the evil gods after the Refugees escaped the hell dimension and when the evil gods came after them?

[Mayabird]

So, in a way, they were like the fookin' prawns once?

That's actually how I got to thinking it, but the Avians were way cuter. I can explain more later when I get home from work.

Also, I don't think the Avians know about their past either. They definitely believe that the evil gods had been monkeying around with them and their ancestors were also there or something when the Thinkers busted out, but that's all way out of living memory so they just have their legends and stories they tell their chicks. But more later.

[Siege]

What is this about a hell dimension in the first place? Is it time to bust out the Union Aerospace Corporation yet?

[Simon_Jester]

What is this about a hell dimension in the first place? Is it time to bust out the Union Aerospace Corporation yet?

Essentially, that's what the Refuge's distant ancestors did, only they didn't have the Doom Guy to save them. So they wound up kidnapped and spending a very long time in dedicated universes ruled over by sadistic reality-warping AI deity-equivalents. Which, for obvious reasons, people tend to describe as "Hell."

[Siege]

So now they're from another universe? I thought they were from this one, just a few superclusters and a light cone or two to the left?

[Simon_Jester]

They escaped from the Hell-dimension to a galaxy far far away- a galaxy in this universe but, as you say, "a light cone or two to the left." They honestly aren't sure whether they wound up in the same universe they were 'born' in, nor do they really care, because regardless it's a lot better than living in I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream.

Then, fearing search and pursuit from the Hell-dimension, they ran from that galaxy to this. That was done using the extreme-range, wildly-inaccurate-navigation Emergency Drive which you are familiar with.

All this is a consistent origin story that has not changed since she started playing, outlined in Mayabird's posts which are indexed in the Plotline Index thread.

[fgalkin]

So now they're from another universe? I thought they were from this one, just a few superclusters and a light cone or two to the left?

Read me. And me!.

It's what inspired me to make my demonoids.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Simon_Jester]

The Haruhiists! With one of the most powerful media-export economies in the known galaxy!

Also, the power of rock!

I like this.

[Simon_Jester]

Firing at that range has its uses. 1. It disrupts enemy formations, forcing evasive maneuvers and forcing the approaching fleet to space itself out such that they have room to evade. 2. It keeps ships out of the range of orbital guns. 3. It buys time for ships to keep their distance from enemy warships.

Recently brought to my attention:



So no, I do not advocate "eyeballing it" from ranges of several light-minutes...

Man. That guy gives way better physics lessons than I do.