ITT there are angsty giant robots.

[Ford Prefect]

It's not so much that I'd like to see him be an action hero. I'd just like him not to be so... spineless. Shinji never grows as a character. He walks into the show as a whiny bitch and leaves the show as a whiny bitch.

You either didn't watch the show, or you're a moron. Take your pick.

Here's a clue. Early in the series, Shinji spends part of an episode trying to steal the controls from Asuka. Mid-way through the series, Shinji jumps into a volcano without any prompting. When he Gendou apparently kills Toji by proxy, Shinji comes back to Central Dogma and plans to destroy it. When all hope is lost and Zeruel has Nerv over a barrel, Shinji demands that Gendou let him pilot again and rips Zeruel a new one. When Arael attacks, Shinji is sitting in his cockpit, wanting to be launched. He wasn't ever 'spineless', and the idea that he received no character development is a load of shit.

[Formless]

Ghetto Edit: Oh, and that's also discounting the ending, which basically exists as a vehicle for character growth of the "sudden epiphany" sort. Yeah, realistic its not, but whatever.

[Formless]

Here's a clue. Early in the series, Shinji spends part of an episode trying to steal the controls from Asuka. Mid-way through the series, Shinji jumps into a volcano without any prompting. When he Gendou apparently kills Toji by proxy, Shinji comes back to Central Dogma and plans to destroy it. When all hope is lost and Zeruel has Nerv over a barrel, Shinji demands that Gendou let him pilot again and rips Zeruel a new one. When Arael attacks, Shinji is sitting in his cockpit, wanting to be launched. He wasn't ever 'spineless', and the idea that he received no character development is a load of shit.

I have heard some people complain that the last few episodes reversed the more positive growth the characters had, and that to me sounds like a more valid thing to whine over. But hey, considering all that he went through even before those episodes, I think its excusable the guy would develope PTSD.

[Ford Prefect]

At the beginning of the series Shinji is a lonely introvert, through the middle of the series he starts to come out of his shell and makes friends, and at the end of the series he's messed up when circumstances beyond his control spiral into the end of the world. No one said Evangelion was supposed to have a happy ending, after all.

[Formless]

Indeed. Hell, even if I DO go see Rebuild (or buy it on DVD or whatever), I would feel ripped off if it didn't have that apocalyptic feel to it.

[jollyreaper]

Here's a clue. Early in the series, Shinji spends part of an episode trying to steal the controls from Asuka. Mid-way through the series, Shinji jumps into a volcano without any prompting. When he Gendou apparently kills Toji by proxy, Shinji comes back to Central Dogma and plans to destroy it. When all hope is lost and Zeruel has Nerv over a barrel, Shinji demands that Gendou let him pilot again and rips Zeruel a new one. When Arael attacks, Shinji is sitting in his cockpit, wanting to be launched. He wasn't ever 'spineless', and the idea that he received no character development is a load of shit.

I have heard some people complain that the last few episodes reversed the more positive growth the characters had, and that to me sounds like a more valid thing to whine over. But hey, considering all that he went through even before those episodes, I think its excusable the guy would develope PTSD.

From my perspective, End of Evangelion did it for me. Between masturbating over comatose Auska to rejecting human instrumentality, it's hard not to dislike him. One of the big questions is what the meaning of that ending was. My original interpretation was that everyone was dead period. It's just him and Auska sitting on a beach surrounded by blood and a giant dead Rei head. But subsequent discussion implied that the rejection of instrumentality left it up to every human being to decide whether they wanted to remain merged with the gestalt consciousness or come back in human bodies. So that does change some of the flavor of that ending, the human race hasn't been obliterated, not completely. Though one has to wonder what the newly returned people will do returning to a completely devastated world.

[Formless]

From my perspective, End of Evangelion did it for me. Between masturbating over comatose Auska to rejecting human instrumentality, it's hard not to dislike him. One of the big questions is what the meaning of that ending was. My original interpretation was that everyone was dead period. It's just him and Auska sitting on a beach surrounded by blood and a giant dead Rei head. But subsequent discussion implied that the rejection of instrumentality left it up to every human being to decide whether they wanted to remain merged with the gestalt consciousness or come back in human bodies. So that does change some of the flavor of that ending, the human race hasn't been obliterated, not completely. Though one has to wonder what the newly returned people will do returning to a completely devastated world.

Who, other than Singularity Worshippers, would think Instrumentality is a good thing? You've not only destroyed all of humanity, but the biosphere as well. Think about it, Humans are animals and evolved from animals. But they are also "descendants of Lillith" or whatever, and have souls. Thus, it stands to reason that your dog is a descendant of Lillith and has a soul, as does your tree (which we see decimated by the sheer force of the event anyway), the birds that live in it, the squirrels, algea in the sea... anything and everything that lives on Earth is a descendant of Lillith and therefore is effected by Instrumentality, or at least Impact.

Fortunately, there is no reason to think that Asuka (who died shortly before Impact began) could come back but not, say, Misato. Or the biosphere. But saying that Shinji's rejecting of Instrumentality is a BAD thing, and should be listed alongside his sexuality as one of his flaws, is simply amazing.

[jollyreaper]

Coming back from the LCL goo is actually the primary question here. EoE is very vague and completely open to interpretation. As I said, it appeared that everyone died when they turned to goo and could at least persist in the collective soul or whatever the hell you want to call it. By rejecting instrumentality, it appeared that these people would be dead and that was that, Shinji and Asuka would be the last two humans on earth and starve to death. This was actually a pretty common interpretation. You had to go to the fan boards to see a new interpretation, the idea that more people could come back from the goo. But would plants and animals have enough self-will to reform from the goo? Remains unexplored and unanswered. So you can forgive people for assuming that this was the end of the world, period. If you assume otherwise, we're actually at the end of the third Matrix movie, five minutes after the end credits roll. "Hey, everybody! You can get out of your pods! The Matrix is closed! Mankind is free! Oh, wait. I don't think we have nearly enough room in Zion to house everyone. Ok, back in the pods! We're firing the Matrix up again until we can figure out how to feed, clothe, and house all of you."

As for instrumentality being the wet dream of singularity geeks, I'm not so sure. People who believe in a strong singularity really are looking for a techno-rapture in the christian sense. Instrumentality, despite all the christian trappings, really seems more like the buddhist nirvana.

[jollyreaper]

One thing that always struck me as a bit odd about the stated purpose of instrumentality:

The Human Instrumentality Project (人類補完計画, Jinrui Hokan Keikaku) is Seele's secret goal: the forced evolution of humanity through bringing about Third Impact under their own control. As a result, all Lilin souls would be gathered into Lilith's Egg and united as one being. This would create an existence where nobody existed singularly, but merely as part of the whole. In Instrumentality, the flaws in every living being would be complemented by the strengths in others, thus erasing the insecurities in people's hearts.

Powerful world leaders strike me as supreme egotists. Potentially self-sacrificing or simply suicidal idealists usually strike me more as the young activist, not elder statesmen who are at the pinnacle of the power structure. I could see Seele backing a goal that would result in immortality and/or godhood with a preservation of the ego, of self-identity. I find it harder to believe that they would back a concept that would lead to the loss of individuality, of distinct personality.

You have to dive deep into the semi-official offscreen canon to figure out what the white egg, black egg, and all the rest is about. The best explanation I found is that there's supposed to be white eggs one some planets and black eggs on other planets and there should never be a white egg and a black egg on the same planet. Who seeded the eggs is never explained but the whole human/angel mess is a direct result of that mistake.

[Formless]

Coming back from the LCL goo is actually the primary question here. EoE is very vague and completely open to interpretation. As I said, it appeared that everyone died when they turned to goo and could at least persist in the collective soul or whatever the hell you want to call it. By rejecting instrumentality, it appeared that these people would be dead and that was that, Shinji and Asuka would be the last two humans on earth and starve to death. This was actually a pretty common interpretation. You had to go to the fan boards to see a new interpretation, the idea that more people could come back from the goo. But would plants and animals have enough self-will to reform from the goo? Remains unexplored and unanswered. So you can forgive people for assuming that this was the end of the world, period. If you assume otherwise, we're actually at the end of the third Matrix movie, five minutes after the end credits roll. "Hey, everybody! You can get out of your pods! The Matrix is closed! Mankind is free! Oh, wait. I don't think we have nearly enough room in Zion to house everyone. Ok, back in the pods! We're firing the Matrix up again until we can figure out how to feed, clothe, and house all of you."

Ah, okay. Chalk that up to people not paying attention, I guess. But really, we only get to see the epicenter of the event. The Earth is a HUGE place, and that we only see two people walk out doesn't say much about the fate of mankind. That's a necessary dramatic conceit. That one of those people was dead shortly before the film, however, does. Asuka had no control over the event, yet she still came back. The dialogue between Shinji and Lillith/Rei (the being that made it possible in the first place) also indicates that people can come back. As for animals, generally I don't see why they wouldn't be motivated to return-- it may be instinctive, even. Likewise... erm... well, honestly I have no idea how this works for plants and microorganisms since they have no nervous system, but assuming they abide by the "if it lives on earth, it has a soul" rule I don't see why they wouldn't. I don't see any reason to put humanity on a pedestal on this.

As for instrumentality being the wet dream of singularity geeks, I'm not so sure. People who believe in a strong singularity really are looking for a techno-rapture in the christian sense. Instrumentality, despite all the christian trappings, really seems more like the buddhist nirvana.

It may be supernatural in nature, but Instrumentality might as well be mind uploading with godhood and free internet thrown in. Pretty much what singularity worshippers want but with a whole lot more mess to clean up. Transhumanism parrallels christianity/deism in many ways, but ultimately its about "zomg, wouldn't this be kool guys?"

Powerful world leaders strike me as supreme egotists. Potentially self-sacrificing or simply suicidal idealists usually strike me more as the young activist, not elder statesmen who are at the pinnacle of the power structure. I could see Seele backing a goal that would result in immortality and/or godhood with a preservation of the ego, of self-identity. I find it harder to believe that they would back a concept that would lead to the loss of individuality, of distinct personality.

It makes more sense when you think about SEELE as a (massively powerful) cult. Statesmen may be egotistical, but still human and still vulnerable to indoctrination techniques. Don't tell them all the details, and make it sound as much like their preferred utopian ideal (Heaven, classless society, singularity, immortality, free sex, whatever) and its going to be hard to say no. Show them the legitimate alien artifacts and let the rest play itself out. And for those lesser (or stubborn) officials, just scaremonger the existential threat of being anihilated by Angels and watch them pour funding into NERV and Eva production without ever knowing what else those weapons can be used for. The only real issue is how SEELE came to be and how it got its Illuminati like status in the first place.

You have to dive deep into the semi-official offscreen canon to figure out what the white egg, black egg, and all the rest is about. The best explanation I found is that there's supposed to be white eggs one some planets and black eggs on other planets and there should never be a white egg and a black egg on the same planet. Who seeded the eggs is never explained but the whole human/angel mess is a direct result of that mistake.

Yeah, the biggest flaw in need of correcting in Eva is that more of these details ought to have been present in the story itself rather than gathering dust in some early script, or else scrapped entirely rather than feeding us enough details to leave the audience confused. Instrumentality is a simple enough concept, alien astronauts that seed worlds with life is an easy enough concept. Alien astronauts that seed planets with alternating forms of life incompatible with eachother but with USB standard souls is just schizophrenic.

[jollyreaper]

Ah, okay. Chalk that up to people not paying attention, I guess. But really, we only get to see the epicenter of the event. The Earth is a HUGE place, and that we only see two people walk out doesn't say much about the fate of mankind. That's a necessary dramatic conceit. That one of those people was dead shortly before the film, however, does. Asuka had no control over the event, yet she still came back. The dialogue between Shinji and Lillith/Rei (the being that made it possible in the first place) also indicates that people can come back. As for animals, generally I don't see why they wouldn't be motivated to return-- it may be instinctive, even. Likewise... erm... well, honestly I have no idea how this works for plants and microorganisms since they have no nervous system, but assuming they abide by the "if it lives on earth, it has a soul" rule I don't see why they wouldn't. I don't see any reason to put humanity on a pedestal on this.

The newer translations seem to be less ambiguous. I watched it pre-North America release with fansubs. EVA was a notoriously difficult series to get proper translations on and the official versions had as many faults as the fan versions. The ones quoted on the EVA fansite were more clear about people being able to come back if they want to. So if some people don't want to, is the Earth surrounded by a living sea of LCL like the sea on Solaris?

It may be supernatural in nature, but Instrumentality might as well be mind uploading with godhood and free internet thrown in. Pretty much what singularity worshippers want but with a whole lot more mess to clean up. Transhumanism parrallels christianity/deism in many ways, but ultimately its about "zomg, wouldn't this be kool guys?"

Is your understanding that there's a death of ego and personality, a being subsumed by the collective whole? That's a comforting concept in eastern religions but is pretty horrific by western standards.

It makes more sense when you think about SEELE as a (massively powerful) cult. Statesmen may be egotistical, but still human and still vulnerable to indoctrination techniques. Don't tell them all the details, and make it sound as much like their preferred utopian ideal (Heaven, classless society, singularity, immortality, free sex, whatever) and its going to be hard to say no. Show them the legitimate alien artifacts and let the rest play itself out. And for those lesser (or stubborn) officials, just scaremonger the existential threat of being anihilated by Angels and watch them pour funding into NERV and Eva production without ever knowing what else those weapons can be used for. The only real issue is how SEELE came to be and how it got its Illuminati like status in the first place.

I think this is going to be a chocolate vs. vanilla debate, no right answer only personal opinion.

You are correct that real alien artifacts would make one hell of a compelling argument for bringing people into the conspiracy. But my personal preference would be to imagine that the world leaders would be told that they are going to become personal gods with this whole effort. I'm trying to think of examples of leadership of world powers getting sucked into crazy-ass cults. I think the Nazis are probably the greatest example of that. The North Koreans are a good runner-up. But both of those cult systems allow the believer an immense amount of personal gain. It's sort of hard to say as an observer whether or not the high mucky-muck is a true believer in the cause or whether they simply believe the cause will line their pockets. The Seele conspiracy isn't about feigning support for something to make money, it's really about ending the world. And if the Third Impact will result in the obliteration of their very personalities... Muslim suicide bombers believe in the idea of an afterlife with 72 virgins. I've rarely seen examples of atheist suicide attackers, people who truly believe that death brings complete and total personal oblivion with no hope for an afterlife.

Of course, if instrumentality is the death of individuality, there's no reason why Gendo had to make that clear to them. Each side has an agenda for third impact: Gendo, the Angels, Seele, Rei, all have an idea of how it should be.

Yeah, the biggest flaw in need of correcting in Eva is that more of these details ought to have been present in the story itself rather than gathering dust in some early script, or else scrapped entirely rather than feeding us enough details to leave the audience confused. Instrumentality is a simple enough concept, alien astronauts that seed worlds with life is an easy enough concept. Alien astronauts that seed planets with alternating forms of life incompatible with eachother but with USB standard souls is just schizophrenic.

Yup. Then there's the confusing idea of the angels being potential versions of humanity. Very confusing.

I had a christian upbringing as a lad so the whole rapture thing was right up there with slasher movies as things to scare me. I saw the old 70's christian rapture movies that came out long before Lef Behind and they didn't concentrate on the goodness of God and all the happy stuff, it was more about the death and chaos of the people remaining on Earth. Jack Chick territory with the government coming around with guillotines to kill all the people who tried to embrace Christianity after rapture. Creepy, creepy shit. There was a Trek episode with an alien race right on the cusp of ascending to energy beings that really struck me, seeming like a secular take on the rapture. Evangelion had all the christian references and so I couldn't help but see instrumentality as another take on the rapture doctrine. But I was entirely confused about where the stuff fit in with the actual bible since the Lance of Longinus was supposed to be the spear that pierced Christ's side, not a giant alien space weapon.

Based on the stuff I'd read online back when EoE came out, I'd put together my own theory of the cosmic backstory for EVA.

1. Cosmic entity that we might think of a God seeds the Earth to create humans and leaves behind scriptures to guide us.
2. A lot of the ideas get muddled and handed down to us devoid of the original context.
3. Humans discover the hidden dead sea scrolls.
4. Scrolls outline the cosmic plot: humans are proto-gods. When we have advanced far enough to be tested, agents of god (angels) will awake to test our worth. If we fail the test, we will be destroyed and are proven unworthy. If we pass all of the tests, we will be able to ascend as an entire species consolidating into a godhead and will thus go on to whatever the next Big Thing is. Construction of the EVA units is part of this test.
5. There's an inner and outer conspiracy. The outer conspiracy thinks Second Impact was an alien attack, the Angels are just attacking aliens, and things are roughly as presented. EVA units are just a competing defense project to fight the angels, based on alien tech, one that seems unlikely to succeed. The inner conspiracy knows about the scrolls and the mystical cosmic side of the struggle.
6. Seele represents the inner conspiracy, assumes they will succeed in attaining godhead and immortality.
7. Nobody but the Seele heads understand that the end goal is the end of the world as we know it.
8. Gendo has his own agenda.
9. Seele works with Gendo long enough to figure out the secrets of EVA construction. The mass production models represent the end of Gendo's usefulness.

The whole extrapolation here is based on the idea that what we saw is meant to happen. The egg theory clearly marks everything as a mistake, cruel and pointless.

[Formless]

The newer translations seem to be less ambiguous. I watched it pre-North America release with fansubs. EVA was a notoriously difficult series to get proper translations on and the official versions had as many faults as the fan versions. The ones quoted on the EVA fansite were more clear about people being able to come back if they want to. So if some people don't want to, is the Earth surrounded by a living sea of LCL like the sea on Solaris?

Better question: how much conscious input goes into reforming your body? Can people change their physical attributes? How strong is a human AT Field (which the movie seems to indicate is used in the process of returning)? Man, imagine if you could come back as a genetically enhanced superman, or a furry, or even just plain sexy. Thta would be awesome.

Is your understanding that there's a death of ego and personality, a being subsumed by the collective whole? That's a comforting concept in eastern religions but is pretty horrific by western standards.

Instrumentality only aggregates souls, I don't see anything to suggest that they actualy become one super-soul or something. My understanding is, the individual keeps their personality, memories, and all those things that are usually used to distinguish us from eachother. But there is no physical barrier between minds. There is no need to communicate through words-- though the characters seem to find this convention convenient at the time of Impact. Imagine it-- its like being the ultimate telepath. You-- and everyone else-- can slip into everyone elses mind at will. Exchange thoughts, memories, ideas, emotions. And have them forcibly taken from you as well. Tell me, in such a situation how would you even begin to tell where your mind ends and someone else's begins? Where your identity ends and another's begins? Hell, stay in that state long enough, and how would you react to being taken from that situation?

I think this is going to be a chocolate vs. vanilla debate, no right answer only personal opinion.

You are correct that real alien artifacts would make one hell of a compelling argument for bringing people into the conspiracy. But my personal preference would be to imagine that the world leaders would be told that they are going to become personal gods with this whole effort. I'm trying to think of examples of leadership of world powers getting sucked into crazy-ass cults. I think the Nazis are probably the greatest example of that. The North Koreans are a good runner-up. But both of those cult systems allow the believer an immense amount of personal gain. It's sort of hard to say as an observer whether or not the high mucky-muck is a true believer in the cause or whether they simply believe the cause will line their pockets. The Seele conspiracy isn't about feigning support for something to make money, it's really about ending the world. And if the Third Impact will result in the obliteration of their very personalities... Muslim suicide bombers believe in the idea of an afterlife with 72 virgins. I've rarely seen examples of atheist suicide attackers, people who truly believe that death brings complete and total personal oblivion with no hope for an afterlife.

Well, that's why they want to have control over the process. Presumably whoever initiates it can dictate the exact nature and hierarchy of the New World.

Of course, if instrumentality is the death of individuality, there's no reason why Gendo had to make that clear to them. Each side has an agenda for third impact: Gendo, the Angels, Seele, Rei, all have an idea of how it should be.

Yeah, but the people and politicians footing the bill for SEELE don't necessarily have to have all the information, remember? Gendo and SEELE aren't averse to lying to get things done. Meanwhile, most of the angels seem to be no smarter than animals and may have been doing it on instinct. In fact, the one we do know is sentient/sapient (Kowaru/Tabris) even asked Shinji to kill him once he connected the dots and realized what this all would mean.

*snip ideas on how it might have worked*

I like details, but honestly there is a such thing as too many details. I would actually have been fine as long as the progenitor aliens were even MENTIONED, and some of the other stuff like "Angels are potential forms of humanity (whatever that's supposed to mean)" just not even come up.

The whole extrapolation here is based on the idea that what we saw is meant to happen. The egg theory clearly marks everything as a mistake, cruel and pointless.

Heh, maybe its just me but absurdist/existentialist themes like that are actually kind of fun once in a while. The universe was pointless till we came along.

[Bright]

I know this sounds a little strange, but Evangelion really means something to me. At its core, underneath all the religious imagery and the messy science fiction, it's really just a very sincere attempt by the director to work through his mental illness. As someone who's also had issues with depression, I found the depictions of loneliness and suffering rather powerful, and there's tons of things I admire on a technical level. It's one of the few stories that go beyond being simple favorites for me and move more into the realm of... I don't know, formative experiences? But even though I really, really like it, I'll also gladly admit that the original work had flaws, and I welcomed Rebuild as a chance to iron them out.

But as it stands, Rebuild 2.0 ended up as a giant, genuinely bitter disappointment for me. I can't say that it's bad - I'd rate it 8 out of 10, I guess? - but it's also clearly a ridiculous example of style over substance. The lavish fight scenes obviously have center stage now that there's a giant budget to support them, and the fan service is (ironically) far cheaper now than it was in the original work. But worst of all, all the nuance has been drained from the cast... and why? To make them more palatable to the common man? Pandering is never the solution. Whatever flaws Evangelion has, characterization was never among them. Hell, Eva is the work that taught me in the first place that characters don't have to be conventionally sympathetic to be complex and interesting. I am continually bugged by how many people FAIL to learn that lesson.

The characters of Rebuild are generic shells. While the supporting cast mostly suffers from the compressed pacing, the main trio's problems seem more conceptual. Actually, I've even heard rumors that the original script of 2.0 was much longer, with a lot more character development for Misato and especially Asuka, but that Anno was talked into cutting it down. It really kind of hurt to find out that literally everything I wanted was wiped away by a quirk of happenstance. I suppose that it's still possible that the next movie will redeem the project from being just an epic adventure story, but I don't have a whole lot of hope.

</fanboy>

[jollyreaper]

Well, I remained skeptical of how they could maintain the emotional impact with so much trimming. Even if you get rid of the light and fluffy episodes, there's still too much to fit within a four movie runtime.

Like I said above, my only character problem was Shinji and I've already stated my thoughts on him. The other characters were terribly flawed, some sympathetically, some not, but you are right that they remained interesting.

The problem with many anime fans, of course, is that they're not really watching for depth and meaning, they just want stroke material. Just look at all of the bizarre gaiden games they've come out with and the official Gainax-licensed masturbation aids, the most popular being the ones featuring Rei.

I haven't seen the rebuilds yet but if it's all flash and no substance, that will remind me of the Starship Troopers producer saying how all the Heinlein fans will love it because the bugs are awesome. What? No! The bugs were not the main part of the story. The freakin' mobile infantry armor wasn't even the point of the story, it was just awesome. But shit, if you're going to do Starship Troopers and strip out all the talky bits that meant anything, couldn't you at least get the armor right? No. May as well tell a Jane Austen fan that all the prose from the original novel has been dropped and the plot's been changed but good golly, we got the period costumes right so they should love it.

[Formless]

You know, its interesting that I hear that said so often about anime fans... usually coming from anime fans. Or sometimes trekkies.

Or maybe its just a phenomenon of (especially internet) fandom in general?

I mean, lets face it, obviously anyone who responds to this thread is going to be a de facto anime fan, on account of being a fan of an anime franchise: Evangelion. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if only a minority of people buy all that merchandising crap and that its enough Gianax keeps selling the shit.

[adam_grif]

I mean, lets face it, obviously anyone who responds to this thread is going to be a de facto anime fan, on account of being a fan of an anime franchise: Evangelion.

I do believe it is theoretically possible for somebody to watch the show, not enjoy it and then respond to this thread with such, Formless

[Ford Prefect]

Well, I remained skeptical of how they could maintain the emotional impact with so much trimming. Even if you get rid of the light and fluffy episodes, there's still too much to fit within a four movie runtime.

How short do you think these movies are? If you take away the OP and ED, there's about 21-22 minutes of actual content in any episode of Evangelion; the whole series is only 572 minutes long at most. The first two of the new Evangelion films are 206 minutes in total. Even assuming that the next two films are only the length of 1.0, you'd only have to cut about seven or eight episodes of material.

[CaptHawkeye]

Most of which would be history episodes and such where SEELE uselessly recaps everything that just fucking happened.

[Bright]

Well, I remained skeptical of how they could maintain the emotional impact with so much trimming. Even if you get rid of the light and fluffy episodes, there's still too much to fit within a four movie runtime.

I don't think it's even that simple. The light and fluffy episodes are kind of important for providing context for when everything turns to shit. A downwards spiral is pointless when there's nothing concrete to spiral down from. And hell, even, say, "Magma Diver" includes somewhat important bits of definition for Shinji's and Asuka's relationship. The Jet Alone episode was the only completely expendable one, because the only point it really makes (NERV and Ritsuko are sinister) could rather easily have been made in other, shorter ways.

Like I said above, my only character problem was Shinji and I've already stated my thoughts on him. The other characters were terribly flawed, some sympathetically, some not, but you are right that they remained interesting.

Well, a lot of people who hated Shinji were positively surprised. Without spoilers, he can now do crazy awesome things by getting really angry and determined! You know, like mecha characters are supposed to.

The problem with many anime fans, of course, is that they're not really watching for depth and meaning, they just want stroke material. Just look at all of the bizarre gaiden games they've come out with and the official Gainax-licensed masturbation aids, the most popular being the ones featuring Rei.

Ta-da!

Most of which would be history episodes and such where SEELE uselessly recaps everything that just fucking happened.

Discounting Death and Rebirth, there's exactly one recap episode in the series - and only half of it is a recap.

[SilverWingedSeraph]

Well, a lot of people who hated Shinji were positively surprised. Without spoilers, he can now do crazy awesome things by getting really angry and determined! You know, like mecha characters are supposed to.

You're being disingenuous. Honestly, most people who watch RoE have their memories of Shinji tainted by End of Eva. Shinji in Rebuild is for the most part exactly the same as he was in the early episodes of the anime. But he just comes off as a little bit more assertive, a little less willing to be a victim. All his badass moments in RoE except for the last one in RoE 2, all happened in the original anime as well. And that peaks at the end of Rebuild 2.0, when Shinji doesn't get "really angry and determined", he gets fucking enraged, because another person who he cares about got taken from him, and this time he intends to do something to save them.

And frankly, that's fine. That's great, actually. If I want depressing downhill slide, I have the original anime to watch. Rebuild, at least for the moment, appears to be building the characters up, focusing on their strengths instead of on their weaknesses. Anno is not the same person he was when he originally wrote Eva, so he's naturally going to change things. There's no need to retell the story the same way it was told before.

tl;dr version: Shinji in NGE and Shinji in ROE aren't that different, for the most part. Most people who hate Shinji hate him because of End of Evangelion, where frankly, it's hard not to hate him, since he's so thoroughly hateable in it, and even he knows that, since he hates himself from start to finish in that fucking movie.

[Formless]

I do believe it is theoretically possible for somebody to watch the show, not enjoy it and then respond to this thread with such, Formless

Assuming that the topic has drifted sufficiently from the OP, then yeah. Though right now the discussion seems to be the kind that requires familiarity with the original series, so I'm pretty sure we're all fans of the franchise here.

[Bright]

Well, a lot of people who hated Shinji were positively surprised. Without spoilers, he can now do crazy awesome things by getting really angry and determined! You know, like mecha characters are supposed to.

You're being disingenuous. Honestly, most people who watch RoE have their memories of Shinji tainted by End of Eva. Shinji in Rebuild is for the most part exactly the same as he was in the early episodes of the anime. But he just comes off as a little bit more assertive, a little less willing to be a victim. All his badass moments in RoE except for the last one in RoE 2, all happened in the original anime as well. And that peaks at the end of Rebuild 2.0, when Shinji doesn't get "really angry and determined", he gets fucking enraged, because another person who he cares about got taken from him, and this time he intends to do something to save them.

And frankly, that's fine. That's great, actually. If I want depressing downhill slide, I have the original anime to watch. Rebuild, at least for the moment, appears to be building the characters up, focusing on their strengths instead of on their weaknesses. Anno is not the same person he was when he originally wrote Eva, so he's naturally going to change things. There's no need to retell the story the same way it was told before.

Frankly, I think these little touches make a hell of a difference.

Shinji, Rei and Asuka are all defined by extremes. They are depictions of mental illness, possibly even literally based on genuine personality disorders. And I just don't think you can go half-way with that; smoothing Shinji over by making him "a little more assertive" and "a little less willing to be a victim" can potentially have a really ruinous effect on him. I'm withholding final judgment until I see how the events of the ending come to affect him in the next movie. But this is just Shinji we're talking about. Asuka was hit much harder, both in regards of screen time and characterization. Her extremity in the original series gave her a psychological realism that that really made her stand out among all other examples of her (extremely two-dimensional) archetype. Softening her up - possibly even excising her traumatic backstory - is basically a huge loss as far as I'm concerned. I like to think of it like this: Soryu was a character first and a tsundere second, Shikinami is a tsundere first and a character second. And Rei... well, I'd say that Rei has paradoxically (and hilariously) managed to become a "Rei-Clone". Because her development is more obvious, she is now indistinguishable from the dozens of imitators she spawned.

I don't have any problem with the cast of Evangelion being portrayed in a more positive light. Actually, I would LOVE to see that. But there's no point to it when the characters doing the healing have never suffered as deeply and thoroughly as the originals. That's just moving the goalposts. (I know that there's still time for that, but the dynamics between the characters have already crystallized.) Them dragging themselves up from the lowest possible point - that's what I think would be interesting to see.

Besides, I don't think the original Evangelion is a fundamentally unhappy story in the first place. One of the things I like about it is that the tiny conclusion to keep on living Shinji comes to in the end is so very important - or that the most basic gesture of affection like a caress can have an enormous significance. That's just not possible with them being more or less healthy human beings.

[jollyreaper]

I mean, lets face it, obviously anyone who responds to this thread is going to be a de facto anime fan, on account of being a fan of an anime franchise: Evangelion. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if only a minority of people buy all that merchandising crap and that its enough Gianax keeps selling the shit.

Look at it this way: Gainax only cares about the people dropping the serious coin. If you pirate your anime, they don't care. If you by Eva pilot fuck toys, you're the guy they're catering to. So even if it isn't the majority of the fans out there doing this, they're the ones bringing in the most dough and are the ones catered to. There's been a lot of complaint about shows degenerating into too much fanservice.

[jollyreaper]

I don't have any problem with the cast of Evangelion being portrayed in a more positive light. Actually, I would LOVE to see that. But there's no point to it when the characters doing the healing have never suffered as deeply and thoroughly as the originals. That's just moving the goalposts. (I know that there's still time for that, but the dynamics between the characters have already crystallized.) Them dragging themselves up from the lowest possible point - that's what I think would be interesting to see.

Agreed. That makes for good drama. There's a fine line between good tragedy and pointless grimdark. A lot of people still have affection for 1990's comic book darker and grittier crap where everything has to be awful and terrible and no good. It becomes a giant one note that grows dull before the song is over.

What was mentioned above about the light and fluffy episodes being important, that's true. You have to love the characters before you care what happens to them. There's no tragedy in seeing an asshole being an asshole. There's tragedy in seeing a nice person forced by circumstances into having to become that asshole to survive. There's moving tragedy in seeing a good person crushed by circumstances beyond their control. And you are right, there is triumph in seeing someone take everything that can be dished out and fight his way back to a victory.

[Formless]

Look at it this way: Gainax only cares about the people dropping the serious coin. If you pirate your anime, they don't care. If you by Eva pilot fuck toys, you're the guy they're catering to. So even if it isn't the majority of the fans out there doing this, they're the ones bringing in the most dough and are the ones catered to. There's been a lot of complaint about shows degenerating into too much fanservice.

What makes you think that they are catering only to the people who want worthless oversexed merchandising? Man, Star Wars has tons of action figures and posters of Princess Leia in her Jabba's Palace getup, I wonder what demographic Lucasfilm primarily caters to?