Ex-Chicago cop found guilty of lying about torture.

[SirNitram]

Link

(AP) CHICAGO - A decorated former police officer whose name has become synonymous with police brutality in the city was sentenced Friday to 4½ years in federal prison for lying about the torture of suspects.

Dozens of suspects — almost all of them black men — have claimed for decades that Jon Burge and his officers electrically shocked, suffocated and beat them into confessing to crimes ranging from armed robbery to murder. After the hearing, several victims and their supporters said the sentence wasn't nearly stiff enough.

"It's outrageous," said Mark Clements, who claims Burge's officers tortured him into giving a false confession in 1981 when he was 16. Tears ran down his faced and his voice rose in anger. "It's not justice."

Standing nearby, community activist Fred Hampton Jr. echoed the outrage, saying the white officer's sentence was disproportionately low compared to what others receive for lesser crimes.

"People in our community get more time than this for fist fights," said Hampton, whose father was a Black Panther leader killed by police before the Burge era.

Flint Taylor, an attorney who has represented several police torture victims, predicted the sentence would become an issue the Chicago mayor's race. A host of candidates, including former White House chief of staff Rahm Emanuel, are vying to replace retiring Mayor Richard Daley.

"The new mayor will have to apologize to these victims of torture," Taylor said.

But others were satisfied with the verdict, including U.S. Attorney Patrick Fitzgerald, whose office prosecuted Burge.

"Justice delayed isn't justice completely denied," Fitzgerald said.

U.S. District Judge Joan Lefkow said the sentence reflected the seriousness of the allegations and, in making her decision, she wondered why a respected officer so admired by his department would resort to such violence.

"My best guess is ambition," Lefkow said. "Perhaps the praise, the publicity and the commendations ... were seductive and led you down this path."

Burge was charged with lying when he testified in a civil lawsuit brought by Madison Hobley, who was sentenced to death for a 1987 fire that killed seven people, including his wife and son. Hobley was later pardoned.

Hobley claimed detectives put a plastic typewriter cover over his head to make it impossible for him to breathe. Burge denied knowing anything about the "bagging" or taking part in it. The indictment against Burge never said Hobley was tortured but accused Burge of lying about participating in or knowing about torture that took place under his watch. Burge has never faced criminal charges for abuse.

While the former police commander denied during his five-week trial that torture took place, Lefkow noted the jury hadn't believed him — and neither had she. In considering a sentence, Lefkow told Burge she took into account his "unwillingness to acknowledge the truth in the face of all the evidence."

Burge stood facing Lefkow as she read a statement and the sentence. Her offer to let him sit given his poor heath drew groans of protest from the victims and courtroom observers, who otherwise sat rapt as the judge spoke. As Lefkow talked about victims' testimony that she'd found particularly moving, Burge's sister-in-law left the courtroom.

Earlier Friday, Burge told the judge he knew his case brought the police department into disrepute and "for that, I am deeply sorry." He insisted he wasn't the person who's been "vilified" by the media but didn't specifically address the allegations of torture and abuse.

"I'm 63 years old, and while I try to keep a proud face, in reality, I am a broken man," he then said, his voice falling and seeming to break with emotion.

After Lefkow handed down the sentence, defense attorney Richard Beuke said his client, who was fired in 1993 for mistreating a suspect, didn't mean to express remorse or suggest he did anything wrong in his statement. Bueke blamed what he called cop killers, murderers and rapists for the allegations that dogged Burge for years.

"I don't think a day in jail for Jon Burge is just." The attorney said.

Burge does not have to report for prison until March 16. He did not speak to reporters after the hearing and was taken out an entrance not accessible to reporters or the general public for security reasons, Bueke said.

Frankly, the sentence is too short. However, given what he was charged with, he may well have to go into solitary for his own protection. Four years of complete isolation is not gonna be good for the brain.

[Norade]

So what do all the people who defend American SWAT tactics have to say when things like this come to light so often in the United States? Is this not proof that every level of the American justice system is rotten to the core?

Everything from wrongful deaths in raids, the blue wall, sentencing of officers that do break the law, the US prison system is frankly wrong and disgusting. It just shows that in America police do tangibly harm the citizens they ought to protect and serve.

[Knife]

So what do all the people who defend American SWAT tactics have to say when things like this come to light so often in the United States? Is this not proof that every level of the American justice system is rotten to the core?

Everything from wrongful deaths in raids, the blue wall, sentencing of officers that do break the law, the US prison system is frankly wrong and disgusting. It just shows that in America police do tangibly harm the citizens they ought to protect and serve.

lol, you're being silly. Quick google search says there are roughly 800,000 police (in various capacities) in the USA. Even with a 99% rating of good cops over 1% bad cops, you'll still have 800 stories of bad cops through out their careers. 40 a year for 20 years. News flash, in a country of 308 million people, you're going to have sad, fucked up, terrible, happenings every single fucking day. We are not perfect and could be better, doesn't make the system bad/good off of random incendiary anecdotal, yet sad and preventable happenings.

Not that I'm defending this jackass, but calling out 'all those who defend cops' like those who actually discuss these issues are bad because a percentage of fuck wads inhabit the earth with us, is fucking dishonest of you.

[Norade]

So what do all the people who defend American SWAT tactics have to say when things like this come to light so often in the United States? Is this not proof that every level of the American justice system is rotten to the core?

Everything from wrongful deaths in raids, the blue wall, sentencing of officers that do break the law, the US prison system is frankly wrong and disgusting. It just shows that in America police do tangibly harm the citizens they ought to protect and serve.

lol, you're being silly. Quick google search says there are roughly 800,000 police (in various capacities) in the USA. Even with a 99% rating of good cops over 1% bad cops, you'll still have 800 stories of bad cops through out their careers. 40 a year for 20 years. News flash, in a country of 308 million people, you're going to have sad, fucked up, terrible, happenings every single fucking day. We are not perfect and could be better, doesn't make the system bad/good off of random incendiary anecdotal, yet sad and preventable happenings.

Not that I'm defending this jackass, but calling out 'all those who defend cops' like those who actually discuss these issues are bad because a percentage of fuck wads inhabit the earth with us, is fucking dishonest of you.

Do you honestly think that even the good cops aren't doing harm by placing people into the beyond cruel American prison system? Also, do you really think that only 1% of police are bad or misguided individuals? How many deaths and tortures yet hide behind the code of silence that is the blue wall? Why does an old white dude only get four and a half years for torture when an old black man would get life? How is this even close to justice?

[Knife]

Do you honestly think that even the good cops aren't doing harm by placing people into the beyond cruel American prison system?

I think we can both agree that prison reform is needed. What's not needed? Empty, inflammatory rhetoric.

Also, do you really think that only 1% of police are bad or misguided individuals?

Was an example. Never meant to show how many cops are 'bad', rather to put some perspective in never ending news articles about 'bad things happening'. You're English, right? Somewhere in the 50 some odd million citizens? Statistically, we should get in the USA 6 times the shitty stories of police bullshit. And that's just population as a factor and not any other variable.

How many deaths and tortures yet hide behind the code of silence that is the blue wall?

I honestly don't know, but I'm willing to bet you don't know either. So if you want to go down this line, go run off and grab some data/proof or what ever instead of standard 'hur hur USA sucks and kills it's own people' shit.

Why does an old white dude only get four and a half years for torture when an old black man would get life? How is this even close to justice?

Do you have information of some black dude who was a cop doing roughly the same thing this douche did and had more/less time in jail to compare with? And no, it is completely unfair that the victim got fucked up worse than this shit head cop. How does that change anything I've said.

[Broomstick]

Norade, stop sounding like a hysterical little girl.

Seriously - this is a Chicago story we're talking about. Chicago Illinois - you know, the state where something like 3 or 4 former governors were sent to jail over the past few decades? Where the most recent convicted governor, Blagoevich, bragged on leaving the courthouse than he had been convicted of ONLY ONE felony. Gee, the epic levels of corruption couldn't possibly have anything to do with 1) this shit happening in the first place and 2) why it took so fucking long to convict the asshole.

It's been known for decades in that town that Burges was dirty as all fuck. They reason they're FINALLY getting convictions in Chicago and Illinois is that the Feds are FINALLY starting to clean this shit up and enough bricks have been taken out of that blue wall you're sobbing about that something can be done about it. And you're just wailing about how awful, how awful it all is and haven't the foggiest notion of just HOW corrupt, dirty, and despicable Chicago government and law enforcement has been for... well, probably since the days of Al Capone and can't see that this is a POSITIVE sign. Some of the perpetrators of injustice are FINALLY going to jail themselves.

Protective solitary? Oh, please - throw Burges into the general population. He can reap what he's sowed. Oh, alright, we can't do that - it would be murder, or so close to it as to make no difference. No, four years isn't enough. Life in prison isn't enough to atone for what he's done. He lived in comfortable retirement while his innocent victims languished in jail. This isn't going to be fixed ever - that's why it's a crime and an injustice. But at least the record has been set straight and it's on record those innocent men aren't liars or nuts. It's better than nothing at all.

And don't smear the good name of the hundreds of thousands of honest cops in this nation by implying they're no better than that piece of slime. Not every cop is a horrible, corrupt, officer - most of them are decent, hardworking men women who have to wear bullet proof vests to work at a $25,000 a year job.

You want to say the average American cop is as corrupt and racist and sadistic as Burge? Then provide some evidence Otherwise shut the hell up before you swoom and we have to loosen your corset and grab the smelling salts.

[Stofsk]

Do you honestly think that even the good cops aren't doing harm by placing people into the beyond cruel American prison system?

What the fuck do you expect cops to do, let an offender go because the prison he'll go to is fucked up? I'm hardly a fan of the police but even I know that's fucking dumb.

[Norade]

Do you honestly think that even the good cops aren't doing harm by placing people into the beyond cruel American prison system?

I think we can both agree that prison reform is needed. What's not needed? Empty, inflammatory rhetoric.

Agreed on prison reform.

Also, do you really think that only 1% of police are bad or misguided individuals?

Was an example. Never meant to show how many cops are 'bad', rather to put some perspective in never ending news articles about 'bad things happening'. You're English, right? Somewhere in the 50 some odd million citizens? Statistically, we should get in the USA 6 times the shitty stories of police bullshit. And that's just population as a factor and not any other variable.

Yeah, I know the bad shit stories get reported more often and that odds are we should hear more stories. However the quality of police have been declining as far as I see it. The City I live in went from having a good useful police force that were more than happy to actually deal with the issues, to a bunch of worthless assholes in the space of a few years. I understand that due to shit pay and a bad line of work not many people want to be a cop, but it seems more and more that the only people that do take up the badge do it for all the wrong reasons.

How many deaths and tortures yet hide behind the code of silence that is the blue wall?

I honestly don't know, but I'm willing to bet you don't know either. So if you want to go down this line, go run off and grab some data/proof or what ever instead of standard 'hur hur USA sucks and kills it's own people' shit.

I don't think it can be known, what is known is that as bad as the police in other nations are slowly getting they still have nothing and hopefully with never have anything on American police. Seriously, every time I see this shit to boggles me that Canada and the US can be so different even in places with the same population density. Check Toronto or Vancouver versus most American cities and see what I mean.

Why does an old white dude only get four and a half years for torture when an old black man would get life? How is this even close to justice?

Do you have information of some black dude who was a cop doing roughly the same thing this douche did and had more/less time in jail to compare with? And no, it is completely unfair that the victim got fucked up worse than this shit head cop. How does that change anything I've said.

No, but we have general information for the sentences of whites versus blacks and it doesn't look like good odds that the white dude would get harsh punishment leveled at him. Of course being a cop might protect them both equally.

Do you honestly think that even the good cops aren't doing harm by placing people into the beyond cruel American prison system?

What the fuck do you expect cops to do, let an offender go because the prison he'll go to is fucked up? I'm hardly a fan of the police but even I know that's fucking dumb.

In some cases, yes. As an example for most drug crime I would say certainly because frankly you don't deserve what you get in prison for possessing or selling most drugs.

Norade, stop sounding like a hysterical little girl.

Seriously - this is a Chicago story we're talking about. Chicago Illinois - you know, the state where something like 3 or 4 former governors were sent to jail over the past few decades? Where the most recent convicted governor, Blagoevich, bragged on leaving the courthouse than he had been convicted of ONLY ONE felony. Gee, the epic levels of corruption couldn't possibly have anything to do with 1) this shit happening in the first place and 2) why it took so fucking long to convict the asshole.

Maybe your glorious shitty nation ought to have done something a while ago to deal with this shit huh? Instead they left it to fester for as long as they could before starting to do a half assed job in cleaning it up. Even then we all know they'll miss too much and it will start again.

It's been known for decades in that town that Burges was dirty as all fuck. They reason they're FINALLY getting convictions in Chicago and Illinois is that the Feds are FINALLY starting to clean this shit up and enough bricks have been taken out of that blue wall you're sobbing about that something can be done about it. And you're just wailing about how awful, how awful it all is and haven't the foggiest notion of just HOW corrupt, dirty, and despicable Chicago government and law enforcement has been for... well, probably since the days of Al Capone and can't see that this is a POSITIVE sign. Some of the perpetrators of injustice are FINALLY going to jail themselves.

No shit, but who let it get this bad in the first place? You guys did, every voter in the city elected officials that were this bad. The people have the choice to say fuck this cycle and force people to step down. The feds could have moved quicker. In all, it's great that things are finally getting clean. I can still say took you long enough and be glad that I'll never visit a city that bad within my own nation.

And don't smear the good name of the hundreds of thousands of honest cops in this nation by implying they're no better than that piece of slime. Not every cop is a horrible, corrupt, officer - most of them are decent, hardworking men women who have to wear bullet proof vests to work at a $25,000 a year job.

You want to say the average American cop is as corrupt and racist and sadistic as Burge? Then provide some evidence Otherwise shut the hell up before you swoom and we have to loosen your corset and grab the smelling salts.

I think the average cop is pretty damn worthless either because they personally are, or because the system they work within neuters their ability to do any good. if you give police more power they get corrupt, if you take it away they become worthless. Either way they seem to accomplish less and less with each passing year no matter where you look.

Personal example:

I get home after drinking to a good friend of mine finally being back in country after a year abroad. I come home and my roommate is throwing a huge party and a noise complaint is filed. I get there right as the cops show up and they try to pin this shit on me and don't notice the crowd of teenagers scattering from my idiot room mates party. There were eight cops responding to a noise complaint and none of them were competent enough to catch the right person. You know who finally sorted the issue out and got the ticket to the right person? Bylaw enforcement because they were the only ones smart enough to actually listen.

Then I head off because I had only come home to get more booze and head out again. I come back a few hours later and my house is trashed, windows smashed, shit tosses around, walls burned through. When I call the police you know what I get? I get I'm sorry we've wasted too may resources on your house tonight and there isn't going to be enough evidence to charge anybody. Funny it happened 20 minutes after you busted my roommate and gave him e a thousand dollar fine and his locked room was trashed as much as any other part of the house and you claim there's no evidence.

Or when by good friend had a a few grand in tools stolen and we tracked them down and the police wouldn't even seek a warrant to go in and get them.

So I'm sorry, fuck the police and the bleeding cunts that spawned them. Never once have they helped me, not when I had a knife pulled on me and tried to press charges, not when my little brother was robbed by these same people a little while later. Never.

[Tiriol]

Norade, you are letting your personal bias cloud your judgment something fierce there. You've had rough experience with the police, fine, that is going to affect anyone's judgment, but you have turned it into personal hatred. And apparently that hatred also ensures that you despise an entire nation, since you call it shitty. I can assure you, though, that without the police any nation and country would become a bleak place very soon. The military could, of course, take on police duties, but I'm not sure I'd want to live in a country where the soldiers do the police's duty(it tends to lead to military dictatorship).

As for the article: finally some justice done, although too little. Whether it's too late I can't really judge, but for many, many victims, it undoubtedly appears to be so.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Frankly, the sentence is too short. However, given what he was charged with, he may well have to go into solitary for his own protection. Four years of complete isolation is not gonna be good for the brain.

In regards to the sentence length. Article

Now, I agree it is too short. However, I don't think a judge has authority to sentence someone to a time period several magnitudes longer than what is outlined in law. That should be addressed in legislative action especially for circumstances involving torture.

January 21, 2011 (CHICAGO) (WLS) -- A federal judge has sentenced former Chicago police commander Jon Burge to four and a half years in prison.

Burge was convicted on federal charges of lying about the torture of prisoners in June of 2010. Sentencing guidelines for the charges - three counts of perjury and obstruction of justice - were 21 to 27 months. Judges have the right to depart from those guidelines, and U.S. District Judge Joan Lefkow did so, doubling the potential sentence.

The former Chicago cop made an emotional plea to Judge Lefkow during the two day sentencing hearing.

"I'm not a perfect person," Burge told the judge, "but I'm not the person portrayed in the media."

"The claim that I'm racist deeply disturbs me," he went on to say. Race had no bearing on his dedication to police work, and the suggestion that he was on a "mission to frame innocent people, nothing could be further from the truth," Burge said.

While Burge told Lefkow he's "deeply sorry" his case had harmed the police department's reputation, he stopped short of admitting any guilt. To this day, Burge denies ever torturing or allowing the torture of any suspects while he was a police commander in the 1970s and 80s.

Finally, his voice choking with emotion, Burge said, "I'm 63. I try to keep a proud face. In reality I'm a broken man."

Judge Lefko then told Burge she did not believe him, and that his behavior demonstrated a serious lack of respect for the due process of law. She said the entire Burge saga was due to a dismal lack of leadership in the police department and by extension, local and federal prosecutors who did nothing about it.

After the sentence was handed down, prosecutors expressed satisfaction, while alleged victims hoped to see more charges against officers they say were accomplices to torture.

"Mr. Burge got a smack on the wrist. And what I'm so really interested in seeing today is to see if the U.S. District Attorney Patrick Fitzgerald hold true to his word and indict additional officers that played roles with Jon Burge," said former prisoner Mark Clements, with tears streaming down his face.

"I thought the judge's decision was wonderful and a tremendous message. What she called the abysmal leadership of this city," said Flint Taylor, civil rights attorney. "This is a significant step in the process to bring some justice to all of those people who were tortured."

The government was pleased with the sentence but said the investigation is not over.

"Justice was delayed in this case. And what happened never should have happened and justice should have come sooner, but justice delayed isn't justice completely denied. It is important that justice was accomplished," said U.S. Attorney Patrick Fitzgerald.

Burge's attorney, Rick Beuke, said his client is innocent.

"I don't think a day in jail for Jon Burge is just," said Beuke.

Lefko said she tried to figure why Burge did what he did years ago and she said she could only concur that it was ambition unchecked by the higher ups. She said the ex-cop had demonstrated a serious lack of respect for the due process of law along with an unwillingness to acknowledge the truth in the face of all the evidence.

During the hearing, the judge heard from alleged torture victims as well as members of Burge's family.

"I still have nightmares," alleged victim Anthony Holmes told Judge Lefkow on Thursday, the first day of the sentencing hearing. "I wake up in a cold sweat."

In their plea for a lenient sentence, his family and friends described Burge as a man's man, a cop's cop, married to the job he loved. They said he was gracious, caring, funny and colorblind.

Burge's older brother Jeff on the stand Friday called his brother "demanding" and "fair." He said Jon Burge had been "tried and convicted in the press and has already served many years."

Referring to his brother's many health maladies, including prostate cancer and heart problems, Jeff Burge said, "almost any sentence will be a death sentence. I don't want to see him die in prison."

Others, however, said Burge's sentence was light.

"Burge gets four years, five years and he goes home. That's not right. My brother spent 16 years on Death Row for something he didn't do," said Robin Hobley, Madison Hobley's sister.

Sergio Acosta, who helped oversee the Burge investigation when he was in the U.S. Attorney's office, said the case must send a message to today's police officers

"Good police officers who observe this type of conduct taking place - that they not be quiet," said Acosta.

Burge will begin serving his sentence on March 16.

I wonder what people like Norade have to say when they make claims that the system shows bias for police officers and shorten their sentences?

[Norade]

Norade, you are letting your personal bias cloud your judgment something fierce there. You've had rough experience with the police, fine, that is going to affect anyone's judgment, but you have turned it into personal hatred. And apparently that hatred also ensures that you despise an entire nation, since you call it shitty. I can assure you, though, that without the police any nation and country would become a bleak place very soon. The military could, of course, take on police duties, but I'm not sure I'd want to live in a country where the soldiers do the police's duty(it tends to lead to military dictatorship).

As for the article: finally some justice done, although too little. Whether it's too late I can't really judge, but for many, many victims, it undoubtedly appears to be so.

I do understand that without out them it is anarchy and death and rioting and all that. However it seems like a zero sum game with law enforcement sometimes, they get frustrated at having no power so the good ones leave to be replaced with worse ones, then they get power back and the bad ones abuse it so they become infective again. Then when you do bust somebody the law might let them off, give to harsh a sentence, do nothing, or simply take far too long.

It's just frustrating to see situations where you would have to take the law into your hands to get anything done because nobody else will step up for you.

As for the US, I just hate seeing my neighbor nation making such stupid choices and doing nothing about them and the contrast between our major cities and the US is striking.

[Kamakazie Sith]

I think the average cop is pretty damn worthless either because they personally are, or because the system they work within neuters their ability to do any good. if you give police more power they get corrupt, if you take it away they become worthless. Either way they seem to accomplish less and less with each passing year no matter where you look.

All you have to show for this is one personal example involving your friend hosting a party and then your friend allowing the party to reach such a state that they tore his house apart? Wow. I am convinced.

I get home after drinking to a good friend of mine finally being back in country after a year abroad. I come home and my roommate is throwing a huge party and a noise complaint is filed. I get there right as the cops show up and they try to pin this shit on me and don't notice the crowd of teenagers scattering from my idiot room mates party. There were eight cops responding to a noise complaint and none of them were competent enough to catch the right person. You know who finally sorted the issue out and got the ticket to the right person? Bylaw enforcement because they were the only ones smart enough to actually listen.

That last part did not make sense. ByLaw enforcement? Was this university police? Also, he's your roomate right and that makes you another responsible person for the house, right? So, if you're listed as a resident and the police identify you as a resident of a house that is throwing an out of control party why should they believe you right off. You apparently managed to convince them but you need to understand one thing. People lie to cops all the time. It takes effort for you to convince us that you aren't responsible for the party at a house that you're registered to.

Then I head off because I had only come home to get more booze and head out again. I come back a few hours later and my house is trashed, windows smashed, shit tosses around, walls burned through. When I call the police you know what I get? I get I'm sorry we've wasted too may resources on your house tonight and there isn't going to be enough evidence to charge anybody. Funny it happened 20 minutes after you busted my roommate and gave him e a thousand dollar fine and his locked room was trashed as much as any other part of the house and you claim there's no evidence.

I agree here. They probably should have come out. In my city we can't deny a request for service. Though I do agree with them in their conclusion regarding evidence. What evidence would you expect to find that would prove anything beyond that X person was present in the house.

Or when by good friend had a a few grand in tools stolen and we tracked them down and the police wouldn't even seek a warrant to go in and get them.

A police officer must develop their own probable cause to satisfy the warrant requirement. You saying your friends tools are present in a house is not enough. How did you identify them as your friends tools?

So I'm sorry, fuck the police and the bleeding cunts that spawned them. Never once have they helped me, not when I had a knife pulled on me and tried to press charges, not when my little brother was robbed by these same people a little while later. Never.

You don't offer a lot of information regarding the knife incident. I could probably explain why said person was not charged with a crime if you'll give me the whole story.

[Norade]

I think the average cop is pretty damn worthless either because they personally are, or because the system they work within neuters their ability to do any good. if you give police more power they get corrupt, if you take it away they become worthless. Either way they seem to accomplish less and less with each passing year no matter where you look.

All you have to show for this is one personal example involving your friend hosting a party and then your friend allowing the party to reach such a state that they tore his house apart? Wow. I am convinced.

Roommate and they tore my house apart after I had left and after the party had been 'broken up' by which I mean the police let the drunken teens wander away only to return later and fuck my house over. They also failed to do anything to help recover thousands of dollars of stolen tools which we tracked down for them, refused to help after I had a knife pulled on me, and that's just off the top of my head.

I get home after drinking to a good friend of mine finally being back in country after a year abroad. I come home and my roommate is throwing a huge party and a noise complaint is filed. I get there right as the cops show up and they try to pin this shit on me and don't notice the crowd of teenagers scattering from my idiot room mates party. There were eight cops responding to a noise complaint and none of them were competent enough to catch the right person. You know who finally sorted the issue out and got the ticket to the right person? Bylaw enforcement because they were the only ones smart enough to actually listen.

That last part did not make sense. ByLaw enforcement? Was this university police? Also, he's your roomate right and that makes you another responsible person for the house, right? So, if you're listed as a resident and the police identify you as a resident of a house that is throwing an out of control party why should they believe you right off. You apparently managed to convince them but you need to understand one thing. People lie to cops all the time. It takes effort for you to convince us that you aren't responsible for the party at a house that you're registered to.

No, it was city bylaw officers also dispatched to the party to write the ticket because normally you don't need cops to tell some kids to shut the party down where I live. Hence I was surprised by their being four cars worth of police at my house when nothing violent had yet happened. Also, which group would you assume is responsible, the group of teens scattering to the four winds, or the group of twenty somethings who are trying to ask what's going on and standing there reasonably? Because frankly I had no idea my roomie was throwing the party and was home for no part of it besides right when it was broken up.

As for people lying to cops, maybe they ought to use some common sense and see that the kids running and the person I told them threw the party should also be questioned. Instead they tried to tell my roommate who threw the party to leave and thought they could order my friends off of the property to which we told them flatly no. Frankly the only usefully people at the scene showed up in vehicles marked with amber lights and armed solely with notepads.

Not my fault the police were to busy finger weapons and milling about while yelling at people to you know, actually do their job and find out what was going on.

Then I head off because I had only come home to get more booze and head out again. I come back a few hours later and my house is trashed, windows smashed, shit tosses around, walls burned through. When I call the police you know what I get? I get I'm sorry we've wasted too may resources on your house tonight and there isn't going to be enough evidence to charge anybody. Funny it happened 20 minutes after you busted my roommate and gave him e a thousand dollar fine and his locked room was trashed as much as any other part of the house and you claim there's no evidence.

I agree here. They probably should have come out. In my city we can't deny a request for service. Though I do agree with them in their conclusion regarding evidence. What evidence would you expect to find that would prove anything beyond that X person was present in the house.

Party was broken up, 20 minutes later the house is trashed by what witnesses say was a horde of teenagers. His room which was always locked was trashed from the inside and no trauma to the lock or door was present. Wall paneling which would only have finger prints on the inside from the person who pulled it down could also have been taken. The kid bragging about it to friends later would also have worked great if the cops had responded the first time.

Or when by good friend had a a few grand in tools stolen and we tracked them down and the police wouldn't even seek a warrant to go in and get them.

A police officer must develop their own probable cause to satisfy the warrant requirement. You saying your friends tools are present in a house is not enough. How did you identify them as your friends tools?

My little brother knew the people who stole them and helped them case our house, the tools were also in a distinctive case and engraved with my friends initials. We had no camera at the time and the shed has no windows for us to take pictures at a later time. the police should at least ask to take a look inside and if denied entry that might tip them off to their being an issue.

So I'm sorry, fuck the police and the bleeding cunts that spawned them. Never once have they helped me, not when I had a knife pulled on me and tried to press charges, not when my little brother was robbed by these same people a little while later. Never.

You don't offer a lot of information regarding the knife incident. I could probably explain why said person was not charged with a crime if you'll give me the whole story.

I was about thirteen and went to the shit school in my city, at a youth group the people I normally tried to avoid showed up looking to start trouble so I ducked out. They corned me in a back alley and pulled a knife, I pushed my way out of the crowd and ran calling the cops as soon as could. The found the guy with the knife took it from him and questioned me and I stated I would like to press charges. I went to the station and gave my statement a second time to a different officer.

Nothing happened, a month or so later they asked for my statement again and I once again gave it. then nothing, they asked for my statement again a few months after and then again nothing. I called in asking what happened and they said the very last statement given didn't match the statements taken down by at this point four separate officers and thus they would do nothing. Basically they waited until they had enough different versions and that enough time had passed to say they tried and then told me to fuck off.

EDIT: Honestly, there were likely changes to my story each time. It was a traumatic event and they questioned me once a month after and then again some months after that. Details tend to fade and different officers will take down details differently. However these youths were known bullies, the type often suspended for school fights to no effect with parents who, in some cases, were drug dealers. I to this day don't understand how they got away with as much as they did.

[Kamakazie Sith]

No, it was city bylaw officers also dispatched to the party to write the ticket because normally you don't need cops to tell some kids to shut the party down where I live. Hence I was surprised by their being four cars worth of police at my house when nothing violent had yet happened. Also, which group would you assume is responsible, the group of teens scattering to the four winds, or the group of twenty somethings who are trying to ask what's going on and standing there reasonably? Because frankly I had no idea my roomie was throwing the party and was home for no part of it besides right when it was broken up.

I would assume the residents of the house being responsible for a party at their house to which you fully admit is the case just not on your part but your roommates. I'm assuming these teens were underage and when you have a bunch of underage kids running away and a resident saying "I live here but not my party" it generates significant doubt.

Though I agree they should have identified the other co-resident and questioned him.

As for people lying to cops, maybe they ought to use some common sense and see that the kids running and the person I told them threw the party should also be questioned. Instead they tried to tell my roommate who threw the party to leave and thought they could order my friends off of the property to which we told them flatly no. Frankly the only usefully people at the scene showed up in vehicles marked with amber lights and armed solely with notepads.

Eh...I probably would let some underage drinkers escape as well. Underage drinking just isn't a large concern for me so I don't feel like devoting the resources of officers on containment to catch a bunch of juvenile citations.

However, they should have listened to you when you identified your roommate and questioned him as well. Did they not talk to him at all?

Not my fault the police were to busy finger weapons and milling about while yelling at people to you know, actually do their job and find out what was going on.

True. There does appear to be some lazy police work here.

Party was broken up, 20 minutes later the house is trashed by what witnesses say was a horde of teenagers. His room which was always locked was trashed from the inside and no trauma to the lock or door was present. Wall paneling which would only have finger prints on the inside from the person who pulled it down could also have been taken. The kid bragging about it to friends later would also have worked great if the cops had responded the first time.

Do you think this kid would have bragged about the vandalism in front of the police? Probably not, and thus that is hearsay. As for the fingerprints. Yeah, I agree considering the amount of damage was probably enough to reach a felony charge they should have collected evidence. However, it is highly likely that the fingerprint was from a guest at the party who probably did return to trash the room, however, his presence as a guest gives him reasonable doubt. Still, the police should have done their job.

My little brother knew the people who stole them and helped them case our house, the tools were also in a distinctive case and engraved with my friends initials. We had no camera at the time and the shed has no windows for us to take pictures at a later time. the police should at least ask to take a look inside and if denied entry that might tip them off to their being an issue.

Denied entry won't get you a warrant. I'm assuming that you live in a country where you have a civil right to refuse entry of the police into your home if they don't have a warrant. A judge would laugh in your face and question your competency as a cop if you listed "they denied us entry" as a reason for probable cause.

Did you actually see these tools in this house yourself? If so, why didn't you take them from the house?

I was about thirteen and went to the shit school in my city, at a youth group the people I normally tried to avoid showed up looking to start trouble so I ducked out. They corned me in a back alley and pulled a knife, I pushed my way out of the crowd and ran calling the cops as soon as could. The found the guy with the knife took it from him and questioned me and I stated I would like to press charges. I went to the station and gave my statement a second time to a different officer.

Nothing happened, a month or so later they asked for my statement again and I once again gave it. then nothing, they asked for my statement again a few months after and then again nothing. I called in asking what happened and they said the very last statement given didn't match the statements taken down by at this point four separate officers and thus they would do nothing. Basically they waited until they had enough different versions and that enough time had passed to say they tried and then told me to fuck off.

EDIT: Honestly, there were likely changes to my story each time. It was a traumatic event and they questioned me once a month after and then again some months after that. Details tend to fade and different officers will take down details differently. However these youths were known bullies, the type often suspended for school fights to no effect with parents who, in some cases, were drug dealers. I to this day don't understand how they got away with as much as they did.

Huh, that's shitty police work. Who makes a victim write down a statement multiple times after significant time has passed. That is ridiculous. I understand where you're coming from, Norade. However, not all police are the same.

Given your details of the aggravated assault and the fact that they found a knife on this guy that would be more than enough probable cause for an arrest. I'd taken him to jail. Ask for one witness/victim statement. The next time we'd meet would be at this guys trial. That's how it works in the US...or well my city.

Anyway, like I said. Not all cops are incompetent. Incompetent cops do exist though. It seems like you were victimized by them. I'm sorry about that. However, don't tell me I'm worthless just because you have had negative experiences.

I'll share a story of mine. It's around 2300hrs and I had responded on two calls for service from the same woman regarding her violent ex and father of her children. The first incident he came over and violated the protective order against him. I tried to track him down but was not able to find him. I sent police from a different city to his home but he was not there. A couple hours later he calls her from a nearby payphone and tells her he plans to kill himself by slitting his own throat in front of her and their kids and that she would see it happen. Myself and several other officers check the payphone he called from and the surrounding area. We couldn't find him. I'm sure he was hiding some place where he could see her apartment so I decide to go down the street a few blocks and wait. About 30 minutes after we left the immediate area he returns and breaks into her house. She manages to call as he's forcing the widow open. I get there while he's still present. I tell him to get on the ground. He yells at me "Fuck you! I have a knife. I will kill you" and then runs at me. Thankfully, prior to issuing my commands I had looked at his hands and saw that they were empty. So, I deployed by taser instead of my handgun. Given what he said, the lighting level, and entire incident I could have easily shot him and been justified even though they would not have found a knife.

He had taken 1200mg of Seroquil. I got him medical attention and he's alive today.

So, for every negative story you read or have been involved in there's positive stories that never make the news.

[Norade]

No, it was city bylaw officers also dispatched to the party to write the ticket because normally you don't need cops to tell some kids to shut the party down where I live. Hence I was surprised by their being four cars worth of police at my house when nothing violent had yet happened. Also, which group would you assume is responsible, the group of teens scattering to the four winds, or the group of twenty somethings who are trying to ask what's going on and standing there reasonably? Because frankly I had no idea my roomie was throwing the party and was home for no part of it besides right when it was broken up.

I would assume the residents of the house being responsible for a party at their house to which you fully admit is the case just not on your part but your roommates. I'm assuming these teens were underage and when you have a bunch of underage kids running away and a resident saying "I live here but not my party" it generates significant doubt.

Though I agree they should have identified the other co-resident and questioned him.

Then we agree here.

As for people lying to cops, maybe they ought to use some common sense and see that the kids running and the person I told them threw the party should also be questioned. Instead they tried to tell my roommate who threw the party to leave and thought they could order my friends off of the property to which we told them flatly no. Frankly the only usefully people at the scene showed up in vehicles marked with amber lights and armed solely with notepads.

Eh...I probably would let some underage drinkers escape as well. Underage drinking just isn't a large concern for me so I don't feel like devoting the resources of officers on containment to catch a bunch of juvenile citations.

However, they should have listened to you when you identified your roommate and questioned him as well. Did they not talk to him at all?

Eventually, they nearly let him leave until we pointed him out and even then they only actually talked to him after bylaw came through and sorted it all out.

Not my fault the police were to busy finger weapons and milling about while yelling at people to you know, actually do their job and find out what was going on.

True. There does appear to be some lazy police work here.

Agreed.

Party was broken up, 20 minutes later the house is trashed by what witnesses say was a horde of teenagers. His room which was always locked was trashed from the inside and no trauma to the lock or door was present. Wall paneling which would only have finger prints on the inside from the person who pulled it down could also have been taken. The kid bragging about it to friends later would also have worked great if the cops had responded the first time.

Do you think this kid would have bragged about the vandalism in front of the police? Probably not, and thus that is hearsay. As for the fingerprints. Yeah, I agree considering the amount of damage was probably enough to reach a felony charge they should have collected evidence. However, it is highly likely that the fingerprint was from a guest at the party who probably did return to trash the room, however, his presence as a guest gives him reasonable doubt. Still, the police should have done their job.

Doubtful, but if you got him talking he would say something. I know the kid and he would have talked, he's a brother's friend that I'd known for years, but the police wouldn't have known that. No, it was actually the roommate who did his own room. I know this from his brother, but as the evidence was gone when the landlord had to redo the place it's too late now.

My little brother knew the people who stole them and helped them case our house, the tools were also in a distinctive case and engraved with my friends initials. We had no camera at the time and the shed has no windows for us to take pictures at a later time. the police should at least ask to take a look inside and if denied entry that might tip them off to their being an issue.

Denied entry won't get you a warrant. I'm assuming that you live in a country where you have a civil right to refuse entry of the police into your home if they don't have a warrant. A judge would laugh in your face and question your competency as a cop if you listed "they denied us entry" as a reason for probable cause.

Did you actually see these tools in this house yourself? If so, why didn't you take them from the house?

We did take on box of them from another site, but I only saw the tools at the other site once and was never in a position to move them. Moving this chest would take a truck box and I only had a car. I never got close enough to grab an actual tool either, just close enough to see the engravings when I was there with my mom to pick my brother up.

I was about thirteen and went to the shit school in my city, at a youth group the people I normally tried to avoid showed up looking to start trouble so I ducked out. They corned me in a back alley and pulled a knife, I pushed my way out of the crowd and ran calling the cops as soon as could. The found the guy with the knife took it from him and questioned me and I stated I would like to press charges. I went to the station and gave my statement a second time to a different officer.

Nothing happened, a month or so later they asked for my statement again and I once again gave it. then nothing, they asked for my statement again a few months after and then again nothing. I called in asking what happened and they said the very last statement given didn't match the statements taken down by at this point four separate officers and thus they would do nothing. Basically they waited until they had enough different versions and that enough time had passed to say they tried and then told me to fuck off.

EDIT: Honestly, there were likely changes to my story each time. It was a traumatic event and they questioned me once a month after and then again some months after that. Details tend to fade and different officers will take down details differently. However these youths were known bullies, the type often suspended for school fights to no effect with parents who, in some cases, were drug dealers. I to this day don't understand how they got away with as much as they did.

Huh, that's shitty police work. Who makes a victim write down a statement multiple times after significant time has passed. That is ridiculous. I understand where you're coming from, Norade. However, not all police are the same.

Given your details of the aggravated assault and the fact that they found a knife on this guy that would be more than enough probable cause for an arrest. I'd taken him to jail. Ask for one witness/victim statement. The next time we'd meet would be at this guys trial. That's how it works in the US...or well my city.

Anyway, like I said. Not all cops are incompetent. Incompetent cops do exist though. It seems like you were victimized by them. I'm sorry about that. However, don't tell me I'm worthless just because you have had negative experiences.

I'll share a story of mine. It's around 2300hrs and I had responded on two calls for service from the same woman regarding her violent ex and father of her children. The first incident he came over and violated the protective order against him. I tried to track him down but was not able to find him. I sent police from a different city to his home but he was not there. A couple hours later he calls her from a nearby payphone and tells her he plans to kill himself by slitting his own throat in front of her and their kids and that she would see it happen. Myself and several other officers check the payphone he called from and the surrounding area. We couldn't find him. I'm sure he was hiding some place where he could see her apartment so I decide to go down the street a few blocks and wait. About 30 minutes after we left the immediate area he returns and breaks into her house. She manages to call as he's forcing the widow open. I get there while he's still present. I tell him to get on the ground. He yells at me "Fuck you! I have a knife. I will kill you" and then runs at me. Thankfully, prior to issuing my commands I had looked at his hands and saw that they were empty. So, I deployed by taser instead of my handgun. Given what he said, the lighting level, and entire incident I could have easily shot him and been justified even though they would not have found a knife.

He had taken 1200mg of Seroquil. I got him medical attention and he's alive today.

So, for every negative story you read or have been involved in there's positive stories that never make the news.

Yeah, I'm sorry that I paint all police with the same brush because of the actions of a few, but from my PoV they screwed me when I needed them most. I know most police are good, but the negative stories always hit me the hardest.

Thanks for listening though, I needed to get this shit off my chest.

[Alyeska]

Are you done ranting Norade? I would like to see this thread salvaged rather than HOSed.

[Norade]

Feel free to split the bit with Kamakazie and myself to another thread where ever you wish. I think I have made my general thoughts on police known.

On this topic, obviously it is a good thing that he has been tried and found guilty at all. However why could this not have been done sooner and why was Chicago allowed to become such a shit hole that is only just being cleaned up?

[White Haven]

So...if the justice system has established that he was lying about torture, why are there no charges related to the torture itself? One would seem to flow into the other naturally.

[Simon_Jester]

Could it be a matter of the statute of limitations?

[Broomstick]

Yeah, I know the bad shit stories get reported more often and that odds are we should hear more stories. However the quality of police have been declining as far as I see it. The City I live in went from having a good useful police force that were more than happy to actually deal with the issues, to a bunch of worthless assholes in the space of a few years.

Let me get this straight – because in your perception the police force in a city in Canada is declining you somehow feel that's a basis for slamming every single cop in another country?

How many deaths and tortures yet hide behind the code of silence that is the blue wall?

I honestly don't know, but I'm willing to bet you don't know either. So if you want to go down this line, go run off and grab some data/proof or what ever instead of standard 'hur hur USA sucks and kills it's own people' shit.

I don't think it can be known, what is known is that as bad as the police in other nations are slowly getting they still have nothing and hopefully with never have anything on American police. Seriously, every time I see this shit to boggles me that Canada and the US can be so different even in places with the same population density. Check Toronto or Vancouver versus most American cities and see what I mean.

Chicago has just under 3 million people, with a density of 12,557 people/square mile.

Vancouver has just over a half million people, with a density of 5,335 people/square mile.

Toronta has 2 million, with a density of 3,972 people/square mile – even less dense than Vancouver.

I'd argue that the cities are not comparable with regards with population density. Next time do your fucking research instead of just pulling assumptions out of your ass. Also, nice switching “most American cities” when we're talking about Chicago.

Why does an old white dude only get four and a half years for torture when an old black man would get life? How is this even close to justice?

Do you have information of some black dude who was a cop doing roughly the same thing this douche did and had more/less time in jail to compare with? And no, it is completely unfair that the victim got fucked up worse than this shit head cop. How does that change anything I've said.

No, but we have general information for the sentences of whites versus blacks and it doesn't look like good odds that the white dude would get harsh punishment leveled at him. Of course being a cop might protect them both equally.

In other words, Norade, it's another assumption you pulled out of your ass because “everyone knows” something. Nevermind there's a difference in sentencing between cops and civilians that may or may not offset racial bias here.

Do you honestly think that even the good cops aren't doing harm by placing people into the beyond cruel American prison system?

What the fuck do you expect cops to do, let an offender go because the prison he'll go to is fucked up? I'm hardly a fan of the police but even I know that's fucking dumb.

In some cases, yes. As an example for most drug crime I would say certainly because frankly you don't deserve what you get in prison for possessing or selling most drugs.

First point – Norade, when a man who has actual experience in being imprisoned and later found innocent tells you that you're fucking dumb on this topic you might want to actually listen to him.

And we're not talking about an arguably victimless drug crime here. Burge wasn't toking on his coffee break. He was torturing people until they confessed to murder. You don't see a difference in scale?

Maybe your glorious shitty nation ought to have done something a while ago to deal with this shit huh?

Look up “Eliot Ness” and “Untouchables” some time – the US has been trying to clean up Chicago for quite awhile. It gets better for awhile then backslides and needs another scrubbing.

No shit, but who let it get this bad in the first place? You guys did, every voter in the city elected officials that were this bad.

Burge was not an elected official. He was a commander in the city police force, but not the top guy. It was, in fact, elected officials who have been working to both undo the damage this guy did and find a way to put him in jail. Former Governor Ryan pardoned several of Burge's victims and got them out of the prison system (which, somewhat ironically, Ryan is now a part of as an inmate). An elected official by the name of Bobby Rush fought this battle for decades, including going to the Federal government for assistance. The city of Chicago – full of elected officials – settled a lawsuit brought by Burge victims for $20 million rather than contest the matter.

So, yeah, just slam ALL the “elected officials” and fucking ignore that some of them were instrumental in cleaning up this guys mess. Really, when it gets down to it you're a bigot. You are happy to slam everyone in a group for the failings of a few.

The people have the choice to say fuck this cycle and force people to step down.

There has been a number of people trying to get rid of Mayor Daley for decades, but so far no go. Let's just forget about those reports of people running against him having their campaign headquarters broken into, or being shot at every so often, or other acts of intimidation, and voter fraud. Rumor has it that the real reason Daley isn't running again is because the Feds are getting too close to nailing him. Of course, there's no proof....

(It's also pretty obvious Rahm Emmanuel is the Anointed One for the next Chicago mayor's election, so given the evidence that the political machine is alive and well in Chicago I don't expect much if any change)

The feds could have moved quicker.

Not without violating the law. In this case, two wrongs don't make a right.

I get there right as the cops show up and they try to pin this shit on me and don't notice the crowd of teenagers scattering from my idiot room mates party. There were eight cops responding to a noise complaint and none of them were competent enough to catch the right person.

It is not, in fact, the job of cops to make judgments. When they're dispatched because of reports of disturbing the peace it's their job to quiet things down, not to determine who is and isn't guilty. Down here, we say “let the lawyers sort it out in the morning”. If talking to you while the crowd disperses gets the job down the cops probably think that a win, and the neighbors are happy because they can go back to sleep. What, exactly, did you want them to do? Arrest your roommate on your say so? You said your roommate, who was responsible, WAS fined $1,000. That wasn't enough? What, exactly, do you think they did wrong here?

Then I head off because I had only come home to get more booze and head out again.

So... you only stopped home to get more booze, and found a wild party bad enough to get the police called, then you just turned around and left?

I come back a few hours later and my house is trashed, windows smashed, shit tosses around, walls burned through. When I call the police you know what I get? I get I'm sorry we've wasted too may resources on your house tonight and there isn't going to be enough evidence to charge anybody.

Dude, there's just been a wild party there – they probably thought you were calling to complain about the mess and sure as hell they aren't going to clean up after a party. Did you say “the party monsters came back” or did you say “there has been a break in”?

Never once have they helped me, not when I had a knife pulled on me and tried to press charges.

I've been in two knife fights, been shot at, and had to fight off a rapist and the cops didn't help me there, either – even so, I don't hold them to be worthless as they have helped me at other times and I'm well aware that they're human beings of limited authority and can't be everywhere at once. Hell, even Chicago cops haven't been total shits, such as the two that helped my spouse after an attempted mugging, or the two that helped a local blind woman catch and prosecute the asshole who raped her and beat her dog back when I lived in Chicago, or spent time one night in a dark, freezing alley trying to talk a mentally ill man into coming with them to a shelter so he wouldn't freeze to death... wow, I've got anecdotes, too. More of 'em, in fact, because I'm twice your age and thus have had a lot more time to collect them.

Maybe the difference is that, having lived in Chicago, I've got a better perspective on the fact that a lot of the cops aren't monsters, they're decent folks trying to do the right thing despite working in a corrupt system at a job that is often very dangerous. Oh, and I don't assume that because one person in a group is a shithead they all are.

[Broomstick]

However why could this not have been done sooner and why was Chicago allowed to become such a shit hole that is only just being cleaned up?

Chicago is not a complete cesspit. Hell, even Detroit has some good points (not many, admittedly, but a few). Aside from that – cleaning up institutionalized corruption takes time if you want to do it within the limits of the law. And you want to do it that way, otherwise you're just replacing one stripe of corruption with another.

Where do you get your ideas of how these things happen, TV? Movies? Cleaning up corruption doesn't get all neatly tied up in an hour or two like on the big screen.

So...if the justice system has established that he was lying about torture, why are there no charges related to the torture itself? One would seem to flow into the other naturally.

Burge first faced a judge in 1989 in regards to mistreatment of suspects. The jury was hung (split). He was retried and clear of charges that same year. Let's for a moment consider the problem of getting a jury verdict against a police commander who tortures suspects, I mean, it's entirely possible that those jurors might have hesitated to convict the police commander of the area they lived in for fear of retaliation.

In 1993 the Chicago Police Department's Office of Professional Standards fired Burge for misconduct and was pretty explicit it was for torture and mistreatment of suspects, but of course the CPDOPS can't prosecute, that's up to the legal system. It did result in the bizarre situation of Chicago paying both to prosecute Burge and pay for lawyers to defend him as a city employee.

In 1993 the first of the legal cases also went up the Federal circuit court system.

It was in 1998 that serious efforts first started to be made to clear the names of those in prison since it was becoming clear that Burge might never be convicted. A group from the University of Chicago Law School started with those victims sitting on death row or serving life in prison.

By 1999 State Representative Bobby Rush was petitioning Federal attorney Janet Reno to intervene.

In 2000, then governor Ryan halted all executions in Illinois because so many on death row were turning up innocent, and quite a few of them were Burge victims.

Also in 2000 the Illinois Supreme Court reversed two death-row convictions based on evidence of torture by Chicago police.

In 2002 the Cook County Bar Association ordered a review of 60 cases of alleged abuse under Burge's command. This required appointment of a special prosecutor as state attorney Dick Devine had a conflict of interest, having previously worked at the law firm that defended Burge in the past.

In 2003 Ryan commuted the sentences of 167 people in Illinois and pardoned 4 men on death row, those four being Burge victims, and pardoned them directly, meaning they were free to go immediately, rather than going through a court hearing as customary.

Also in 2003, Richard M. Daley, who was Illinois State Attorney during most of the time Burge was indulging in his sadism, was called in front of a hearing to account for why he never acted on these accusations. (Daley also ignored a call by Amnesty International in 1991 to act on them, but of course, Amnesty International has no legal pull in Chicago).

And, in 2003, a bill was pushed through the Illinois state senate by one Barack Obama to mandate videotaping of all interrogations related to homicide cases.

In 2004 Burge was served a subpoena to appear before a Grand Jury – it was quite the story at the time, if I recall correctly there were even process servers chasing him through Midway airport at one point in an attempt to deliver the subpoena. Seriously, dude, if you're innocent and you've defeated legal challenges for 20 years why are you running, huh?

In 2005 videotaping of all interrogations related to homicide cases became state law.

In 2006 a report finally came out with evidence solid enough to start criminal proceedings, but by then the statute of limitations had run out.

However – in 2008 US Attorney for the Northern District of Illinois, Patrick Fitzgerald in October 2008 charged Burge with two counts of obstruction of justice and count of perjury related to all the hearings and court appearances Burge had been required to make over the years. This lead to his arrest by the FBI in October of that year at his home in Florida.

So...

Could it be a matter of the statute of limitations?

Yes, unquestionably. He can not be prosecuted directly for the torture either he or the men under his command in Chicago Area 2 performed. He can, however, be prosecuted for lying about his actions in front of a judge or Grand Jury if it can be proved he was lying, which now apparently is possible. With legal appearances in the 00's and his continued denials of involvement this made the current legal decision and prison sentence possible.

There are currently Federal lawsuits in the works against the other police officers involved and certain state and city officials for obstruction of justice, among other charges. Included on that list is the current Chicago mayor Richard Daley, who was, as previously mentioned, Illinois States Attorney at the time all this was going down. Among others things, Daley is accused of dragging his feet, or as mayor calling on the city to defend Burge, sufficiently long for the statute of limitations to run out, which would definitely qualify as obstruction of justice. Coincidentally, Daley has decided to not run for mayor again and has already announced plans to retire to Michigan. If they can't get Daley for what happened in the 1980's, well, there's that 2004 hearing that might leave him open to perjury charges....

There are additional lawsuits planned against Burge, so it's possible further penalties may be added in the future.

Finally - as of 2011 Illinois no longer has the death penalty. Burge has a LOT to do with that coming about, due to filling up death row with innocent men.

[Norade]

Yeah, I know the bad shit stories get reported more often and that odds are we should hear more stories. However the quality of police have been declining as far as I see it. The City I live in went from having a good useful police force that were more than happy to actually deal with the issues, to a bunch of worthless assholes in the space of a few years.

Let me get this straight – because in your perception the police force in a city in Canada is declining you somehow feel that's a basis for slamming every single cop in another country?

How many police horror stories do you see coming out of Canada?

Chicago has just under 3 million people, with a density of 12,557 people/square mile.

Vancouver has just over a half million people, with a density of 5,335 people/square mile.

Toronta has 2 million, with a density of 3,972 people/square mile – even less dense than Vancouver.

I'd argue that the cities are not comparable with regards with population density. Next time do your fucking research instead of just pulling assumptions out of your ass. Also, nice switching “most American cities” when we're talking about Chicago.

Great we don't pack a ton of gun totting assholes together mix in some racial hatred and major corruption and expect it to work fine over here. Our largest cities are nice places to live, rather unlike yours. Is it now my fault that our cities are safer and we have less violent crime, less police brutality, and enjoy an overall better quality of life?

In other words, Norade, it's another assumption you pulled out of your ass because “everyone knows” something. Nevermind there's a difference in sentencing between cops and civilians that may or may not offset racial bias here.

Ignoring the fact that there are obvious racial sentencing issues in the states.

First point – Norade, when a man who has actual experience in being imprisoned and later found innocent tells you that you're fucking dumb on this topic you might want to actually listen to him.

And we're not talking about an arguably victimless drug crime here. Burge wasn't toking on his coffee break. He was torturing people until they confessed to murder. You don't see a difference in scale?

I said that some crimes aren't worth punishing and that by arresting people for drug crime even good officers do harm. What part of that flew by you?

Maybe your glorious shitty nation ought to have done something a while ago to deal with this shit huh?

Look up “Eliot Ness” and “Untouchables” some time – the US has been trying to clean up Chicago for quite awhile. It gets better for awhile then backslides and needs another scrubbing.

Then obviously it wasn't cleaned up very well in the first place now was it? It takes a long time for a city to become as corrupt as Chicago has as well as a lot of people looking the other way.

No shit, but who let it get this bad in the first place? You guys did, every voter in the city elected officials that were this bad.

Burge was not an elected official. He was a commander in the city police force, but not the top guy. It was, in fact, elected officials who have been working to both undo the damage this guy did and find a way to put him in jail. Former Governor Ryan pardoned several of Burge's victims and got them out of the prison system (which, somewhat ironically, Ryan is now a part of as an inmate). An elected official by the name of Bobby Rush fought this battle for decades, including going to the Federal government for assistance. The city of Chicago – full of elected officials – settled a lawsuit brought by Burge victims for $20 million rather than contest the matter.

So, yeah, just slam ALL the “elected officials” and fucking ignore that some of them were instrumental in cleaning up this guys mess. Really, when it gets down to it you're a bigot. You are happy to slam everyone in a group for the failings of a few.

Great, some of the officials in town are now decent, I'm very happy for you. What percentage of politicians over the past few years have been good versus the ones that have been shit?

The people have the choice to say fuck this cycle and force people to step down.

There has been a number of people trying to get rid of Mayor Daley for decades, but so far no go. Let's just forget about those reports of people running against him having their campaign headquarters broken into, or being shot at every so often, or other acts of intimidation, and voter fraud. Rumor has it that the real reason Daley isn't running again is because the Feds are getting too close to nailing him. Of course, there's no proof....

(It's also pretty obvious Rahm Emmanuel is the Anointed One for the next Chicago mayor's election, so given the evidence that the political machine is alive and well in Chicago I don't expect much if any change)

Ah, so because it has been left to fester for too long people simply can't change it. Again, it's your nation and your cities fault that it got this bad.

The feds could have moved quicker.

Not without violating the law. In this case, two wrongs don't make a right.

I was more meaning overall, this city has been bad since the thirties. That's about 80 years to fix this shit. I'd say they could have moved faster in fixing the shit hole.

I get there right as the cops show up and they try to pin this shit on me and don't notice the crowd of teenagers scattering from my idiot room mates party. There were eight cops responding to a noise complaint and none of them were competent enough to catch the right person.

It is not, in fact, the job of cops to make judgments. When they're dispatched because of reports of disturbing the peace it's their job to quiet things down, not to determine who is and isn't guilty. Down here, we say “let the lawyers sort it out in the morning”. If talking to you while the crowd disperses gets the job down the cops probably think that a win, and the neighbors are happy because they can go back to sleep. What, exactly, did you want them to do? Arrest your roommate on your say so? You said your roommate, who was responsible, WAS fined $1,000. That wasn't enough? What, exactly, do you think they did wrong here?

Except that if bylaw hadn't shown up it would have gone otherwise because the police were useless and refused to actually listen to what was going on instead of yelling at me and trying to say it was my fault. I'm sorry, but I don't have a lawyer and shouldn't need one to defend myself against something that I had no part in. I expect the police to actually speak to the right people at the party if they are going to hand down punishment in the form of a fine.

Then I head off because I had only come home to get more booze and head out again.

So... you only stopped home to get more booze, and found a wild party bad enough to get the police called, then you just turned around and left?

Only after the police had told me that it was fine for me to leave and the party had been broken up and everybody dispersed. What was I supposed to stay home and stand watch just in case at that stage?

I come back a few hours later and my house is trashed, windows smashed, shit tosses around, walls burned through. When I call the police you know what I get? I get I'm sorry we've wasted too may resources on your house tonight and there isn't going to be enough evidence to charge anybody.

Dude, there's just been a wild party there – they probably thought you were calling to complain about the mess and sure as hell they aren't going to clean up after a party. Did you say “the party monsters came back” or did you say “there has been a break in”?

I didn't make the initial call the neighbors did, I found out about the damage hours after the fact and called it in to both the police and the landlord. The initial call made was to say that there was a break in and that windows were being smashed, things were being thrown through windows, and the walls inside were being burnt by blow torches. The police responded too late didn't talk to anybody who was a witness and then left. When I called again they refused to even dispatch anybody to the scene to hear what I had learned by speaking with my neighbors.

Never once have they helped me, not when I had a knife pulled on me and tried to press charges.

I've been in two knife fights, been shot at, and had to fight off a rapist and the cops didn't help me there, either – even so, I don't hold them to be worthless as they have helped me at other times and I'm well aware that they're human beings of limited authority and can't be everywhere at once. Hell, even Chicago cops haven't been total shits, such as the two that helped my spouse after an attempted mugging, or the two that helped a local blind woman catch and prosecute the asshole who raped her and beat her dog back when I lived in Chicago, or spent time one night in a dark, freezing alley trying to talk a mentally ill man into coming with them to a shelter so he wouldn't freeze to death... wow, I've got anecdotes, too. More of 'em, in fact, because I'm twice your age and thus have had a lot more time to collect them.

Maybe the difference is that, having lived in Chicago, I've got a better perspective on the fact that a lot of the cops aren't monsters, they're decent folks trying to do the right thing despite working in a corrupt system at a job that is often very dangerous. Oh, and I don't assume that because one person in a group is a shithead they all are.

Did you actually press charges in any of those cases and get turned away because the police didn't do their jobs correctly? In my case even Kamakazie who is an officer agreed that in all of my examples the cops didn't do their jobs correctly and were negligent. So seriously fuck off and move somewhere a bit safer.

[Norade]

However why could this not have been done sooner and why was Chicago allowed to become such a shit hole that is only just being cleaned up?

Chicago is not a complete cesspit. Hell, even Detroit has some good points (not many, admittedly, but a few). Aside from that – cleaning up institutionalized corruption takes time if you want to do it within the limits of the law. And you want to do it that way, otherwise you're just replacing one stripe of corruption with another.

Where do you get your ideas of how these things happen, TV? Movies? Cleaning up corruption doesn't get all neatly tied up in an hour or two like on the big screen.

The corruption has been there since the thirties, I'd sort of expect the town to have been cleaned up in 80 odd years. Maybe it's just too much to expect that the US would actually fix a huge issue instead of letting it fester. Then again you caused the issue yourselves with prohibition so I don't even feel sorry for the states at this stage. At every step you guys find new ways to create issues for yourselves. All I can say is get your shit together as a nation, because frankly you guys kind of scare me.

[Alyeska]

Norade, are you trying to stay on the Moderator Radar? Is it your intention to get every thread your involved with Flushed? I thought you were done railing this subject. There is nothing wrong with admitting you fucked up and letting life go on.

[Broomstick]

Norade, when I read about a crazy Canadian decapitating fellow bus passengers with a side order of cannibalism thrown in or some batshit crazy lady in Toronto cuts off her neighbor's hand with a machete I don't immediate leap to the conclusion that all Canadians are deranged, people-eating, machete wielding, ax-crazy maniacs intent on murder. But hey, if it's Americans we're talking about that kind of conclusion-leaping is OK, right? Go to hell.

If anyone wishes to discuss the factual details of Jon Burge and company I'll be happy to do what I can to contribute to meaningful conversation, as I'm somewhat local and remember some of the events as they unfolded (I remembered more than the above, but stuck to what I could quickly fact check as some of the recollections are, after all, 20+ years old).

ETA: I want to compliment Nitram on a concise and highly accurate thread title - he was indeed found guilty of lying about torture, not the actual torture itself. More's the pity.