Cheney huge fan of Obama's record on civil liberties

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Cheney huge fan of Obama's record on civil liberties

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In the early months of Obama's presidency, the American Right did to him what they do to every Democratic politician: they accused him of being soft on defense (specifically "soft on Terror") and leaving the nation weak and vulnerable to attack. But that tactic quickly became untenable as everyone (other than his hardest-core followers) was forced to acknowledge that Obama was embracing and even expanding -- rather than reversing -- the core Bush/Cheney approach to Terrorism. As a result, leading right-wing figures began lavishing Obama with praise -- and claiming vindication -- based on Obama's switch from harsh critic of those policies (as a candidate) to their leading advocate (once in power).

As early as May, 2009, former Bush OLC lawyer Jack Goldsmith wrote in The New Republic that Obama was not only continuing Bush/Cheney Terrorism policies, but was strengthening them -- both because he was causing them to be codified in law and, more important, converting those policies from right-wing dogma into harmonious bipartisan consensus. Obama's decision "to continue core Bush terrorism policies is like Nixon going to China," Goldsmith wrote. Last October, former Bush NSA and CIA Director Michael Hayden -- one of the most ideological Bush officials, whose confirmation as CIA chief was opposed by then-Sen. Obama on the ground he had overseen the illegal NSA spying program -- gushed with praise for Obama: "there's been a powerful continuity between the 43rd and the 44th president." James Jay Carafano, a homeland-security expert at the Heritage Foundation, told The New York Times' Peter Baker last January: "I don’t think it's even fair to call it Bush Lite. It's Bush. It's really, really hard to find a difference that's meaningful and not atmospheric."


Those are the nation's most extreme conservatives praising Obama's Terrorism policies. And now Dick Cheney himself -- who once led the "soft on Terror" attacks -- is sounding the same theme. In an interview last night with NBC News, Cheney praised Obama for continuing his and Bush's core approach to Terrorism:

He obviously has been through the fires of becoming President and having to make decisions and live with the consequences. And it's different than being a candidate. When he was candidate he was all for closing Gitmo. He was very critical of what we'd done on the counterterrorism area to protect America from further attack and so forth. . . .

I think he's -- in terms of a lot of the terrorism policies -- the early talk, for example, about prosecuting people in the CIA who've been carrying out our policies -- all of that's fallen by the wayside. I think he's learned that what we did was far more appropriate than he ever gave us credit for while he was a candidate. So I think he's learned from experience.


Cheney was then specifically asked whether he stood by his early attacks on Obama's national security policies -- "You said you believe President Obama has made America less safe. That he's actually raised the risk of attack. Do you still feel that way?" -- and Cheney, not exactly known for changing his mind, essentially said that, thanks to Obama's continuity, he now does not:

Well, when I made that comment, I was concerned that the counterterrorism policies that we'd put in place after 9/11 that had kept the nation safe for over seven years were being sort of rapidly discarded. Or he was going to attempt to discard them. . . . As I say, I think he's found it necessary to be more sympathetic to the kinds of things we did.


It overstates the case to say there are no differences. There were some: Obama formally ended the "enhanced interrogation program" (the authorization for which had been withdrawn when he took office); banned CIA black sites (which were empty when he took office); and has not invoked the Article II lawbreaking theories of Bush's first term (Bush largely abandoned them as well in his second term as Congress began legalizing his programs). And there is a more conciliatory tone, and some greater technocratic efficiency, in some foreign policy pronouncements. But the crux of Bush/Cheney radicalism -- the mindset and policies that caused much of the controversy -- continues and has even been strengthened. Gen. Hayden put it best, as quoted by The Washington Times:

"You've got state secrets, targeted killings, indefinite detention, renditions, the opposition to extending the right of habeas corpus to prisoners at Bagram [in Afghanistan]," Mr. Hayden said, listing the continuities. "And although it is slightly different, Obama has been as aggressive as President Bush in defending prerogatives about who he has to inform in Congress for executive covert action."

And that list, impressive though it is, doesn't even include the due-process-free assassination hit lists of American citizens, the sweeping executive power and secrecy theories used to justify it, the multi-tiered, "state-always-wins" justice system the Obama DOJ concocted for detainees, the vastly more aggressive war on whistleblowers and press freedoms, or the new presidential immunity doctrines his DOJ has invented. Critically, this continuity extends beyond specific policies into the underlying sloganeering mentality in which they're based: we're in a Global War; the whole Earth is the Battlefield; the Terrorists want to kill us because they're intrinsically Evil (not in reaction to anything we do); we're justified in doing anything and everything to eradicate Them; the President's overarching obligation (contrary to his Constitutional oath) is to keep us Safe; this should all be kept secret from us; we can't be bothered with obsolete dogma like Due Process and Warrants, etc. etc.

Aside from the repressiveness of the policies themselves, there are three highly significant and enduring harms from Obama's behavior.

First, it creates the impression that Republicans were right all along in the Bush-era War on Terror debates and Democratic critics were wrong. The same theme is constantly sounded by conservatives who point out Obama's continuation of these policies: that he criticized those policies as a candidate out of ignorance and partisan advantage, but once he became President, he realized they were right as a result of accessing the relevant classified information and needing to keep the country safe from the Terrorist threat. Goldsmith, for instance, claimed Obama changed his mind about these matters "after absorbing the classified intelligence and considering the various options." GOP Sen. Susan Collins told the NYT's Baker that Obama "is finding that many of those policies were better-thought-out than they realized." Cheney boasted that Obama "obviously has been through the fires of becoming President and having to make decisions and live with the consequences." Predictably -- and understandably -- here's the headline Cheney's interview generated in The Hill this morning:

This has settled in as orthodoxy: one could criticize Bush/Cheney Terrorism policies only out of ignorance and/or being free of the solemn obligation to Keep America Safe.

Second, Obama has single-handedly eliminated virtually all mainstream debate over these War on Terror policies. At least during the Bush years, we had one party which steadfastly supported them but one party which claimed (albeit not very persuasively) to vehemently oppose them. At least there was a pretense of vigorous debate over their legality, morality, efficacy, and compatibility with our national values.

Those debates are no more. Even the hardest-core right-wing polemicists -- Gen. Hayden, the Heritage Foundation, Dick Cheney -- now praise Obama's actions in these areas. Opposition from national Democrats has faded away to almost complete nonexistence now that it's a Democratic President doing these things. What was once viewed as the signature of Bush/Cheney radicalism is now official, bipartisan Washington consensus: the policies equally of both parties and all Serious people. Thanks to Barack Obama, this architecture is firmly embedded in place and invulnerable to meaningful political challenge.

Third, Obama's embrace of these policies has completely rehabilitated the reputations and standing of the Bush officials responsible for them.´ Yesterday, J. Gerald Herbert -- a long-time DOJ official -- told The Raw Story that Obama's refusal to investigate or prosecute Bush era crimes is both a violation of DOJ's duties and sets a "dangerous precedent" by vesting lawbreaking elites with immunity. The active protection of torturers and other high-level lawbreakers both signals that they did nothing seriously wrong and, independently, ensures that such conduct will be repeated in the future.

But Obama's impact in this area extends far beyond that. Dick Cheney is not only free of ignominy, but can run around claiming vindication from Obama's actions because he's right. The American Right constantly said during the Bush years that any President who knew what Bush knew and was faced with the duty of keeping the country safe would do the same thing. Obama has provided the best possible evidence imaginable to prove those claims true.

Conservatives would love to bash Obama for being weak on Terrorism so that, in the event of another attack, they can blame him (and Cheney, in last night's interview, left open that possibility by suggesting Obama may suffer from unknown failures). If it were at all possible, they'd be out accusing him of abandoning critical programs that Keep us Safe; that's what they do best. But they cannot with a straight face claim that Obama has abandoned their core approach, so they do the only thing they can do: acknowledge that he has continued and strengthened it and point out that it proves they were right -- and he was wrong -- all along. If Obama has indeed changed his mind over the last two years as a result of all the Secret Scary Things he's seen as President, then I genuinely believe that he and the Democratic Party owe a heartfelt, public apology to Bush, Cheney and the GOP for all the harsh insults they spewed about them for years based on policies that they are now themselves aggressively continuing.

Obama has won the War on Terror debate -- for the American Right. And as Dick Cheney's interview last night demonstrates, they're every bit as appreciative as they should be.

And of course, Obama's government has assisted in the ongoing illegal detention and possible torture of an American citizen source.


Anybody who still votes for Obama or is planning to do so in the future has to know that he is voting for a Guy who is doing those things and does apparently not consider any of the violations of civil liberties a problem. Anybody who votes for Obama in 2012 is condoning and rewarding illegal actions as well as a continuation and strengthening of Bush era politics.
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Re: Cheney huge fan of Obama's record on civil liberties

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

His continued support of the atrocious policies of the Bush/Cheney administration means that it is a disservice to call him Zerobama, because he has proven himself to be a true American patriot-lover of torture and murder. Thus, for the continued torture and illegal detention of enemies of America is a patriotic and freedom-loving pro-American act. they should call him an Herobama instead.

Or Barry, as we call him on the hill. 8)

In 2012, Herobama's Republican opponent is unlikely to reverse Bush-era politics. I am glad to say that these valiant and patriotic policies will be here to stay, in concordance with the American people whose true blue loyalty to freedom makes them unwilling to betray these principles of truth, justice and the American way. Hail to democracy! Herobama!
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Re: Cheney huge fan of Obama's record on civil liberties

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All I can think of is that he must know something we don't. But i don't know how that could be true because I don't know what that would be... -_-
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Re: Cheney huge fan of Obama's record on civil liberties

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Like how Bush and Cheney themselves knew that there were no WMDs in Iraq? :P
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Re: Cheney huge fan of Obama's record on civil liberties

Post by HarrionGreyjoy »

I'm mostly with Shroom, other than the no reelection bit. He's no HW Bush.

...Actually, he's quite a lot like HW Bush, now that I consider it.

Well then.
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Re: Cheney huge fan of Obama's record on civil liberties

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Ryan Thunder wrote:All I can think of is that he must know something we don't. But i don't know how that could be true because I don't know what that would be... -_-
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Re: Cheney huge fan of Obama's record on civil liberties

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Thanas wrote:Anybody who still votes for Obama or is planning to do so in the future has to know that he is voting for a Guy who is doing those things and does apparently not consider any of the violations of civil liberties a problem. Anybody who votes for Obama in 2012 is condoning and rewarding illegal actions as well as a continuation and strengthening of Bush era politics.
Ok, Thanas - what does the American voter do in 2012 if every single one of the people running for PotUS support and want to continue the Bush/Cheney policies on terrorism? Because that is most likely what is going to happen. You clearly have no problem with condemning Americans for a catch-22 situation where no matter who they vote for you'll find them morally repugnant. The democrats aren't going to field anyone other than Obama, and do you seriously think the Republicans are going to field a candidate that proposes overturning those things?
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Re: Cheney huge fan of Obama's record on civil liberties

Post by Einhander Sn0m4n »

Broomstick wrote:
Thanas wrote:Anybody who still votes for Obama or is planning to do so in the future has to know that he is voting for a Guy who is doing those things and does apparently not consider any of the violations of civil liberties a problem. Anybody who votes for Obama in 2012 is condoning and rewarding illegal actions as well as a continuation and strengthening of Bush era politics.
Ok, Thanas - what does the American voter do in 2012 if every single one of the people running for PotUS support and want to continue the Bush/Cheney policies on terrorism? Because that is most likely what is going to happen. You clearly have no problem with condemning Americans for a catch-22 situation where no matter who they vote for you'll find them morally repugnant. The democrats aren't going to field anyone other than Obama, and do you seriously think the Republicans are going to field a candidate that proposes overturning those things?
We could put it another way: How are we going to get Grandma to stop watching Fixed Noise and pulling the lever for the craziest corporate Kluxer fascist on the ballot more often than the rest of us change our underpants? That right there is what keeps the electorate's Overton window pegged so far to the right no matter what is said or done by the political activists among the younger generations.
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Re: Cheney huge fan of Obama's record on civil liberties

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Broomstick wrote:
Thanas wrote:Anybody who still votes for Obama or is planning to do so in the future has to know that he is voting for a Guy who is doing those things and does apparently not consider any of the violations of civil liberties a problem. Anybody who votes for Obama in 2012 is condoning and rewarding illegal actions as well as a continuation and strengthening of Bush era politics.
Ok, Thanas - what does the American voter do in 2012 if every single one of the people running for PotUS support and want to continue the Bush/Cheney policies on terrorism? Because that is most likely what is going to happen. You clearly have no problem with condemning Americans for a catch-22 situation where no matter who they vote for you'll find them morally repugnant. The democrats aren't going to field anyone other than Obama, and do you seriously think the Republicans are going to field a candidate that proposes overturning those things?
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Re: Cheney huge fan of Obama's record on civil liberties

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Except there's no guarantee a third party candidate wouldn't support those things either (clearly, one needs to be selective in choosing a third party).

Or I suppose this is a proposal for Americans to simply disenfranchise themselves by not voting. In which case they can be condemned for doing nothing, rather than doing something distasteful. Really, the way the last bit in the OP is phrased there is absolutely no way any American can make a decision that will be stamped with approval. Wonderful, being condemned nearly two years in advance for a decision I haven't even made yet.
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Re: Cheney huge fan of Obama's record on civil liberties

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Einhander Sn0m4n wrote:We could put it another way: How are we going to get Grandma to stop watching Fixed Noise and pulling the lever for the craziest corporate Kluxer fascist on the ballot more often than the rest of us change our underpants? That right there is what keeps the electorate's Overton window pegged so far to the right no matter what is said or done by the political activists among the younger generations.
That's a fairly good diagnosis of the problem, and I think one that makes it very clear why this is such a hard problem to solve. Aside from trying to find and persuade people on the individual level... how do you stop people from being so disconnected from reality?

In my opinion, you don't: the closest you can come is to try and mobilize the people who aren't to outvote those who are. Obama did that in 2008; unfortunately, the man was a fraud and didn't try to deliver on the promises he used to get people mobilized. From a historical perspective, that may be the worst thing about the Obama administration: the squandered opportunity to launch an aggressive rollback of bad Bush-era policies, rather than a lukewarm continuation of them.
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Re: Cheney huge fan of Obama's record on civil liberties

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So, the trick is keeping the younger population motivated to vote and lobby and stay active... which means convincing them their voice counts. That's a tall order when so many have drunk the kool-aid that they don't count and can't out shout the old fogeys.

But is also gets back to having viable alternatives. If they're so angry at Obama they either don't vote or "throw away" their votes on a range of minor parties then we get the Republicans and the Tea Party in charge. If they support Obama then the message comes across as what he's doing is OK, so don't change... but that's not necessarily the case in the "vote for the lesser evil" situation American voters seem to constantly face. How do you vote for the lesser evil and yet convince the guy that no, you aren't happy with what he's been doing?
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Re: Cheney huge fan of Obama's record on civil liberties

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What we need is a strong third party candidate who doesn't just blow smoke up our collective asses like Obama did. For maximum effect they need a grassroots campaign and/or and independent source of money to run their campaign with so they're not beholden to corporate masters like just about every other fucking candidate in this country is.
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Re: Cheney huge fan of Obama's record on civil liberties

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Obama learned his politics in Chicago - not a place know for honesty and integrity. At that, Obama is probably one of the more honest and upstanding examples of the politicians from this area.

Anyhow - yes, what we need is a viable third party. Or to have the two big parties fracture into several.
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Re: Cheney huge fan of Obama's record on civil liberties

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Broomstick wrote:Except there's no guarantee a third party candidate wouldn't support those things either (clearly, one needs to be selective in choosing a third party).
Since there's clearly no guarantee a Democrat wouldn't support those things I'm not sure that's such a good argument against voting for a third party. I think Lewis Black put it best when he said our two-party system is a bowl of shit staring at itself in the mirror.
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Re: Cheney huge fan of Obama's record on civil liberties

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Broomstick, what I would focus on is the following:

Vote in primaries, vote in local elections, vote in state elections, be active in primaries, be active in local elections, be active in state elections.

The thing is, that the US is pretty much stuck with the two party system it has. So the only way to achieve any kind of real change, is to achieve that change in on of those parties. And the way to achieve that change, is to get more people elected who support your values. And the part where your vote (or your activities) has the most effect is in those elections where very vew people vote or are active.

If you look at the past, when one party was displaced by another in the US, it was always because of a large group splitting off from the established parties, not because of new parties coming from outside of those established ones. So, either you slowly change the Democratic party to be more progressive/liberal, or you reach a critical mass of progressives/liberals within the Democratic party that they split off, if they are ignored for too long.

Its only when politicians realise that being starkly progressive/liberal/anti-corporate-populist can get them very many votes, that those kinds of politicians will come to the forefront.
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Re: Cheney huge fan of Obama's record on civil liberties

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Honestly, even if there were a 3rd party, nothing is going to change if Americans continue to vote for what they deem as established politicians with established and accepted viewpoints. There are obviously strong undercurrents for much of American policy, and America is what it is because the people choose the way they want America to be.
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Re: Cheney huge fan of Obama's record on civil liberties

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Broomstick wrote:
Thanas wrote:Anybody who still votes for Obama or is planning to do so in the future has to know that he is voting for a Guy who is doing those things and does apparently not consider any of the violations of civil liberties a problem. Anybody who votes for Obama in 2012 is condoning and rewarding illegal actions as well as a continuation and strengthening of Bush era politics.
Ok, Thanas - what does the American voter do in 2012 if every single one of the people running for PotUS support and want to continue the Bush/Cheney policies on terrorism? Because that is most likely what is going to happen. You clearly have no problem with condemning Americans for a catch-22 situation where no matter who they vote for you'll find them morally repugnant. The democrats aren't going to field anyone other than Obama, and do you seriously think the Republicans are going to field a candidate that proposes overturning those things?
In that situation, the only solution which absolves you of any of the blame is to vote for a third party candidate. It may not be an effective vote, but unlike the other two, it is the only one that makes you not complicit in these things. Unless your congressmen of either party is an outspoken opponent of these tactics, that is. However, that list is very small.

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Honestly, even if there were a 3rd party, nothing is going to change if Americans continue to vote for what they deem as established politicians with established and accepted viewpoints. There are obviously strong undercurrents for much of American policy, and America is what it is because the people choose the way they want America to be.
There are several options here:

a) This is an establishment thing and the american people do not support it, but have no viable alternative - an option least likely given how high support for such policies are. I mean, how many americans are against having terrorists tried and convicted in the USA and go to prison there? Sorry, but this option reeks too much of the idiotic "no german voted for Hitler's racial policies" tactic.
b) This is an establishment thing and the american people as a majority just do not care what happens elsewhere in their name - which does not paint either in a favorable light.
c) Both the american people and the establishment support those policies, which makes them both scumbags.
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Re: Cheney huge fan of Obama's record on civil liberties

Post by Broomstick »

Thanas wrote:In that situation, the only solution which absolves you of any of the blame is to vote for a third party candidate.
That's bullshit - voting third party for the PotUS is the same as not voting at all most of the time given the vanishingly small percentage third parties get in such elections (low single digits). That's assuming there's even one on the ballot in your area. Sure, you can write one in, but then you're risking your ballot being thrown out entirely and losing your vote on everything else listed on the ballot so bye-bye your vote on local matters where it's most likely to be effective.

What you're effectively saying is that Americans can either choose not to vote for their next President or you'll regard them as scumbags if not criminals.
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Re: Cheney huge fan of Obama's record on civil liberties

Post by Broomstick »

Or how about this hypothetical:

The 2012 election comes around. There's Obama with the same old same old. The Republicans are running someone who wants to expand Gitmo and start another war.

What's the morally correct thing to do:

1) Vote for Obama, under the premise that while things likely won't get better they won't get worse either.
2) Vote for a third party candidate with zero chance of winning.
3) Vote for the Republitard who wants to make Bush/Cheney look like liberal Democrats

You vote 2 you're running a higher risk of 3 getting in than if you vote 1, because Obama actually has a chance of winning. This is, of course, the voting for the lesser evil strategy where you're voting to keep someone out of office rather than to get in office. I'm convinced it's part of the reason Obama won in 2008 - it's not that everyone was for him, it's that there were a substantial number of people who'd vote for almost anyone other than McCain/Palin. If the Anti-McCain group had all voted for third party candidates sure, there would have been a blip in the third party votes but the end result would have been McCain in the oval office and Palin a heartbeat away from being the same.

Now, you may argue that in such a case it's still best to vote for #2, but you aren't the one who will be living with the majority of the consequences. Is it more important to vote third party and being morally pristine, or more important to be pragmatic and prevent the worst from happening if you can?

Of course, this could be an entirely different story if some miracle happens and the Republicans put forth a sane and acceptable candidate. If the governor of my state, for example, were to run for PotUS there's a definite possibility I'd vote for him as he's been a sane and reasonable governor even if I don't agree with everything he's done. On the other hand, I doubt very much he'd be nominated.

Which is why the declaration "if you vote for Obama in 2012 you're a bad person!" is ridiculous - a lot could happen between now and then, and it's not at all clear who his opposition will be.
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Straha
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Re: Cheney huge fan of Obama's record on civil liberties

Post by Straha »

Broomstick, you're losing the key point of democracy. Namely that you vote for the person/ideals that you support.

Look at your hypothetical again:

Option 1: You support Gitmo.
Option 2: You support closing Gitmo.
Option 3: You support expanding Gitmo.

On cut and dry issues like this (read: human rights) any sort of compromise is read NOT as "I support option 2, but will settle for option 1" but merely as "I support option 1". The only way to support and trigger change is to declare openly your support for the world you like the most. Anything else is counter-productive.
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Re: Cheney huge fan of Obama's record on civil liberties

Post by Metahive »

Wasn't Broomstick's point that choosing #2 will just make #3 more likely?
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Re: Cheney huge fan of Obama's record on civil liberties

Post by Zixinus »

Broomstick, the only thing I see is that you cannot vote for any party that has both a reasonable chance of actually getting into power AND not be part of a "right-ous" USA. If the Democrat party continues to follow their very opponents' policies then yes, there is simply nothing an average US citizen can do that would not result in their country sliding further downhill.

I mean, look at what "vote for the lesser evil" has gotten them: even more screw-ups and the continuation of the very outrageous policies that they promised to vanquish. How is that choosing for the "lesser" evil?
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Re: Cheney huge fan of Obama's record on civil liberties

Post by Alyeska »

A sad fact of reality. Some times you gotta let things get worse before they get better. It could be argued that voting 2 causes 3, but eventualy causes a swing towards 2.

That of course means deliberately allowing bad things to happen. And what if 2 doesn't happen?
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Re: Cheney huge fan of Obama's record on civil liberties

Post by Soontir C'boath »

Alyeska wrote:A sad fact of reality. Some times you gotta let things get worse before they get better. It could be argued that voting 2 causes 3, but eventually causes a swing towards 2.

That of course means deliberately allowing bad things to happen. And what if 2 doesn't happen?
I don't know what you mean by deliberately allowing bad things to happen but #2 hasn't happened since 2008.
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