"Tiger Mothers"

[Gullible Jones]

Is it just me, or is Amy Chua's idea of parenting screwed up?

She seems to me to be drawing a huge false dichotomy. Either you endlessly and uselessly boost your child's self-esteem ("the Western way") or you shout at them all the time and hope it turns them into an A+ student ("the Eastern way"). No in between territory, no possible way of encouraging diligence without treating the kid like dirt.

I'll admit that, since I had a rather shitty childhood, my anger in response to Chua's ideas may be unreasonable. But some of the stuff she admitted to (like calling one of her children "garbage") strikes me as abusive; at least IMO, because I was on the receiving end of such crap.

Obviously, input from those of you who are parents would be appreciated.

[Stark]

I know plenty of Asian girls who were totally broken by their parents constant badgering and interference. Luckily they married dentists, so they're ok if loveless.

[Talhe]

I know of a few Asian women who've had somewhat stern methods, but I only heard of one instance when there verbal abuse. All of them seemed to be fairly successful, but many of them had unresolved issues with their mothers, and parents.

[AniThyng]

Coming from an Asian perspective, I find the notion that being called "stupid" or "garbage" on occasion by Asian parents (nevermind being slapped or *gasp shock horror* CANED) is worthy of the label "abuse" to be really overstating the case. From what I have heard of the book, it still does seem somewhat on the extreme end of things, but still not what I would be willing to call "abuse".

But then again by that standard most of us Asians are broken and abused so perhaps I am unqualified to comment. And yes, the plural of anecdote is not data. Bonus irony points since no one on this board spares anyones feelings if they are felt to be morons or did not do the research. Perhaps it is not the same as being told so by ones parents, but still.

[aerius]

My dad and his siblings were raised that way by his parents and they all turned out to be quite successful, if you ask my dad about it he'll tell you it wasn't exactly fun but it taught him the value of discipline & hard work and gave him a solid work ethic which led to his success. Then he'll say it's THE WAY ALL KIDS SHOULD BE RAISED, and that he regrets not being harsh enough on me. Yeah, so getting a 90 in math results in, and I quote, "this is not acceptable, this is simple high school math, if you're not getting 100% you might as well quit school and drop out. Be a fucking garbage man, because that's all you'll ever amount to if you can't do fucking math. I don't know why you waste you time in school or what you're doing there, you're useless", and that continued for another 20-30 minutes. Yeah, thanks dad.

With that story out of way, I think what works with the Asian way is that parents expect their kids to do well in school and they'll get involved and push them to perform. Unless the kids are born with brain damage we expect them to get straight A's in school and clean up in math & science, that's the goal that parents set for them not "well, just try and do the best you can".

The problem is what happens when it doesn't work, when the child fails to meet expectations. There's a lot of times, especially with my dad's generation where the parents just don't know where to stop. The solution to failures is work harder, work more, and the beatings will continue until morale improves. And that's the part that fucks up kids, the kids only have X amount of ability which only takes them so far, the parents can't or refuse to see that and they keep pushing until something breaks. And that ain't pretty.

[PainRack]

I haven't actually read the book but I think its appropiate to show the title cover.
" "This is a story about a mother, two daughters, and two dogs. This was supposed to be a story of how Chinese parents are better at raising kids than Western ones. But instead, it's about a bitter clash of cultures, a fleeting taste of glory, and how I was humbled by a thirteen-year-old."

Then there's also the interview she gave "my actual book is not a how-to guide; it's a memoir, the story of our family's journey in two cultures, and my own eventual transformation as a mother. Much of the book is about my decision to retreat from the strict "Chinese" approach, after my younger daughter rebelled at 13".

Lastly, the original critique that claims its a superior chinese way of raising kids comes from the Wall Street Journal.

Methink that there's something that doesn't tally up here. Anyone who has read the book mind posting exercepts or etc so that we could comment?

[Soontir C'boath]

Colbert interviewed her Tuesday night and clarified it is not a parenting book.

Colbert Nation

[Freefall]

I haven't actually read the book but I think its appropiate to show the title cover.
" "This is a story about a mother, two daughters, and two dogs. This was supposed to be a story of how Chinese parents are better at raising kids than Western ones. But instead, it's about a bitter clash of cultures, a fleeting taste of glory, and how I was humbled by a thirteen-year-old."

Then there's also the interview she gave "my actual book is not a how-to guide; it's a memoir, the story of our family's journey in two cultures, and my own eventual transformation as a mother. Much of the book is about my decision to retreat from the strict "Chinese" approach, after my younger daughter rebelled at 13".

Lastly, the original critique that claims its a superior chinese way of raising kids comes from the Wall Street Journal.

Methink that there's something that doesn't tally up here. Anyone who has read the book mind posting exercepts or etc so that we could comment?

Interesting. The New York Times has been giving the same impression as the one that seems to be commonly circulating. It is possible that the back cover is misleading, but considering most people have probably heard about its contents second hand, there could definitely be some false accusations going around.

Anyway, aside from that possibility, my take has basically been that this isn't really anything new. Plenty of kids have been raised by overly demanding, overly critical parents. Parents trying to live vicariously through their children's accomplishments, or who, due to their own pride and insecurity, can't bear the thought of their kid being second best, are a well known phenomena, they just don't write books about it, and don't try to put a cultural spin on it (anyone here seen Dead Poet's Society?). I was under the impression that Ms. Chua wasn't even actually raised in the east, but that she was an American of Chinese descent, and doesn't even speak Mandarin. This would mean that all she's really doing is taking a stereotype, turning it up to 11, and then trying to actually fit herself into that stereotype.

Frankly I would think that parents like that would have kids who are proportionately more likely than average to commit suicide (or possibly homicide). It also doesn't honestly seem like they really know what they're doing. Sort of like aerius seemed to suggest, it's not like they are calculating the optimum psychological stress to put their kids under to achieve maximum results, they just don't know any better, and when their "tough love" approach fails, they can't even figure out how to do anything else, so just keep being tougher and failing even more.

It actually seems like an incredibly lazy way to be a parent, honestly.

BTW, as long as people are dropping anecdotes, one of my mom's boyfriends was one of those kinds of guys, even though his own education wasn't anything special (I'm pretty sure my first 2 years of high school exceeded whatever he had; if not, he certainly hid it well). Once she broke up with him and that fear and pressure was off me, my academic performance increased dramatically.

Hm, didn't the industrial revolution basically prove that treating people like shit wasn't actually the best way to get the best performance out of them?

[Freefall]

Colbert interviewed her Tuesday night and clarified it is not a parenting book.

Colbert Nation

Sheesh, how long is the window for editing?

Anyway, thanks for sharing. It looks like she has indeed been misrepresented, which is a shame. At least she apparently recognized the flaws in her approach and attempted to revise them. It's better than I imagine a lot of parents with that kind of mentality ever do.

[AniThyng]

I've got my fair share of "Why isn't this A- an A+" from my Mom and went through an Asian exam oriented schooling system (while doing as little as I could to stay afloat academically and spending the rest of the time on video games, but I digress. I got away with it because my parents weren't on the psychotic end of the "eastern way") I just don't think it in itself lashing out and calling your kid "lazy and stupid" when they don't pull good grades is abusive when applied to children and teenagers who really weren't applying themselves as much as they could academically.

[Simon_Jester]

If it's done a little, fine.

But it's very much possible to hammer a child down verbally to the point where it stops motivating them and starts hurting and intimidating them, weakening them. The mark of a good parent is not that they never do anything which makes their child unhappy. It's that they stop when they cross the line from "causing unhappiness" to "causing harm."

[Shroom Man 777]

I think the Asian way is pretty eh, because all the family togetherness doesn't make sense when you end up hating almost everyone in your family. The Western way of kicking your kids out and letting them grow independently without such family interference is better, since the family will hate each other's guts anyway. Assuming that familiarity breeds contempt, when the family ends up hating each other or otherwise becoming dysfunctional, the Western approach of not giving a shit and promoting independence is healthier than a family that stays together but is composed of members who can't stand each other.

(In other words, treating your kids like shit and pressuring them, thus making them pissed off, while promoting a family that stays together, so you're stuck with people who treat you like shit and pressure you, sucks. Who knew.)

But I come from a dysfunctional family. So yeah.

[HeadCreeps]

Doesn't look like this was posted, so there was this article, dated January 8, 2011.

WSJ: Amy Chua - Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior
It's a very long article, but here is the beginning of it:

A lot of people wonder how Chinese parents raise such stereotypically successful kids. They wonder what these parents do to produce so many math whizzes and music prodigies, what it's like inside the family, and whether they could do it too. Well, I can tell them, because I've done it. Here are some things my daughters, Sophia and Louisa, were never allowed to do:
• attend a sleepover
• have a playdate
• be in a school play
• complain about not being in a school play
• watch TV or play computer games
• choose their own extracurricular activities
• get any grade less than an A
• not be the No. 1 student in every subject except gym and drama
• play any instrument other than the piano or violin
• not play the piano or violin.

I'm using the term "Chinese mother" loosely. I know some Korean, Indian, Jamaican, Irish and Ghanaian parents who qualify too. Conversely, I know some mothers of Chinese heritage, almost always born in the West, who are not Chinese mothers, by choice or otherwise. I'm also using the term "Western parents" loosely. Western parents come in all varieties.

All the same, even when Western parents think they're being strict, they usually don't come close to being Chinese mothers. For example, my Western friends who consider themselves strict make their children practice their instruments 30 minutes every day. An hour at most. For a Chinese mother, the first hour is the easy part. It's hours two and three that get tough.

Despite our squeamishness about cultural stereotypes, there are tons of studies out there showing marked and quantifiable differences between Chinese and Westerners when it comes to parenting. In one study of 50 Western American mothers and 48 Chinese immigrant mothers, almost 70% of the Western mothers said either that "stressing academic success is not good for children" or that "parents need to foster the idea that learning is fun." By contrast, roughly 0% of the Chinese mothers felt the same way. Instead, the vast majority of the Chinese mothers said that they believe their children can be "the best" students, that "academic achievement reflects successful parenting," and that if children did not excel at school then there was "a problem" and parents "were not doing their job." Other studies indicate that compared to Western parents, Chinese parents spend approximately 10 times as long every day drilling academic activities with their children. By contrast, Western kids are more likely to participate in sports teams.

What Chinese parents understand is that nothing is fun until you're good at it. To get good at anything you have to work, and children on their own never want to work, which is why it is crucial to override their preferences. This often requires fortitude on the part of the parents because the child will resist; things are always hardest at the beginning, which is where Western parents tend to give up. But if done properly, the Chinese strategy produces a virtuous circle. Tenacious practice, practice, practice is crucial for excellence; rote repetition is underrated in America. Once a child starts to excel at something—whether it's math, piano, pitching or ballet—he or she gets praise, admiration and satisfaction. This builds confidence and makes the once not-fun activity fun. This in turn makes it easier for the parent to get the child to work even more.

Chinese parents can get away with things that Western parents can't. Once when I was young—maybe more than once—when I was extremely disrespectful to my mother, my father angrily called me "garbage" in our native Hokkien dialect. It worked really well. I felt terrible and deeply ashamed of what I had done. But it didn't damage my self-esteem or anything like that. I knew exactly how highly he thought of me. I didn't actually think I was worthless or feel like a piece of garbage.

Chinese parents can order their kids to get straight As. Western parents can only ask their kids to try their best. Chinese parents can say, "You're lazy. All your classmates are getting ahead of you." By contrast, Western parents have to struggle with their own conflicted feelings about achievement, and try to persuade themselves that they're not disappointed about how their kids turned out.

I've thought long and hard about how Chinese parents can get away with what they do. I think there are three big differences between the Chinese and Western parental mind-sets.

First, I've noticed that Western parents are extremely anxious about their children's self-esteem. They worry about how their children will feel if they fail at something, and they constantly try to reassure their children about how good they are notwithstanding a mediocre performance on a test or at a recital. In other words, Western parents are concerned about their children's psyches. Chinese parents aren't. They assume strength, not fragility, and as a result they behave very differently.

For example, if a child comes home with an A-minus on a test, a Western parent will most likely praise the child. The Chinese mother will gasp in horror and ask what went wrong. If the child comes home with a B on the test, some Western parents will still praise the child. Other Western parents will sit their child down and express disapproval, but they will be careful not to make their child feel inadequate or insecure, and they will not call their child "stupid," "worthless" or "a disgrace." Privately, the Western parents may worry that their child does not test well or have aptitude in the subject or that there is something wrong with the curriculum and possibly the whole school. If the child's grades do not improve, they may eventually schedule a meeting with the school principal to challenge the way the subject is being taught or to call into question the teacher's credentials.

If a Chinese child gets a B—which would never happen—there would first be a screaming, hair-tearing explosion. The devastated Chinese mother would then get dozens, maybe hundreds of practice tests and work through them with her child for as long as it takes to get the grade up to an A.

Chinese parents demand perfect grades because they believe that their child can get them. If their child doesn't get them, the Chinese parent assumes it's because the child didn't work hard enough. That's why the solution to substandard performance is always to excoriate, punish and shame the child. The Chinese parent believes that their child will be strong enough to take the shaming and to improve from it. (And when Chinese kids do excel, there is plenty of ego-inflating parental praise lavished in the privacy of the home.)

Second, Chinese parents believe that their kids owe them everything. The reason for this is a little unclear, but it's probably a combination of Confucian filial piety and the fact that the parents have sacrificed and done so much for their children. (And it's true that Chinese mothers get in the trenches, putting in long grueling hours personally tutoring, training, interrogating and spying on their kids.) Anyway, the understanding is that Chinese children must spend their lives repaying their parents by obeying them and making them proud.

By contrast, I don't think most Westerners have the same view of children being permanently indebted to their parents. My husband, Jed, actually has the opposite view. "Children don't choose their parents," he once said to me. "They don't even choose to be born. It's parents who foist life on their kids, so it's the parents' responsibility to provide for them. Kids don't owe their parents anything. Their duty will be to their own kids." This strikes me as a terrible deal for the Western parent.

Third, Chinese parents believe that they know what is best for their children and therefore override all of their children's own desires and preferences. That's why Chinese daughters can't have boyfriends in high school and why Chinese kids can't go to sleepaway camp. It's also why no Chinese kid would ever dare say to their mother, "I got a part in the school play! I'm Villager Number Six. I'll have to stay after school for rehearsal every day from 3:00 to 7:00, and I'll also need a ride on weekends." God help any Chinese kid who tried that one.

I'm not completely sure if Japanese students fit the same sort of mold as Chua's Chinese parents do, but there is a fairly well-known issue of Japanese shut-ins. Pressure to succeed is frequently explained as one of the main reasons for the problem. Link. I strongly disagree with the notion that this does not happen in Western culture, though - anecdotally, I'm a shut-in for the last ~8 years and I know of several cousins who are in the same situation.

[AniThyng]

If it's done a little, fine.

But it's very much possible to hammer a child down verbally to the point where it stops motivating them and starts hurting and intimidating them, weakening them. The mark of a good parent is not that they never do anything which makes their child unhappy. It's that they stop when they cross the line from "causing unhappiness" to "causing harm."

Well yeah, but in my experience with this sort of debate, the line for where "causing harm" is almost always defined much more loosely - I actually think the article posted by Headcreep pretty much describes to an extent the upbringing of a lot of malaysian chinese, though of course most people do get to go out and play and watch tv and play video games and so on (see my own anecdote), but the basic premise - that you are expected to excel and god help you if you are lazy or disobedient is always there, and for a lot of us, it used to be normal to get rapped on the knuckles with a metal ruler for not being able to recite the times table or spell. That was in my day though. Teachers today can't get away with that anymore.

That being said, given that in order to be a shut in of that type Japan is notorious for, you need indulgent parents who accept you as a otaku and NEET so..uh?

[HeadCreeps]

That being said, given that in order to be a shut in of that type Japan is notorious for, you need indulgent parents who accept you as a otaku and NEET so..uh?

I'm at a huge disadvantage here, but I'm more interested in learning about this than telling. The wiki on NEET (oh-so-credible without a citation, I know) actually includes China as one of the countries where this is a growing trend. Obviously, without a source showing that shut-ins are prevalent in China, I have no point and should not have brought it up. I apologize.

[Hawkwings]

Yeah I was (am still am) being raised in the "traditional" way, being called stupid, why don't you just give up because you're never going to amount to anything, you're a failure because you got a B+, etc.

For reference, asian grading scale:
A = average
B = bad
C = crap (which you will be shoveling for the rest of your life)
D = death
F = let's not even go there...

We who have been on the receiving end of this sort of treatment joke around about the above but it's not like it's a complete parody.

And then of course you hear the recurring story of some poor kid getting fed up and committing suicide by jamming chopsticks up their nose.

And when Chinese kids do excel, there is plenty of ego-inflating parental praise lavished in the privacy of the home.

Wrong. There is no praise, there is only "You'd better keep those grades up or else!" Then when there is a big get-together, parents will go around and brag about their own child's accomplishments, but always casually. And then when they hear "oh you child is so smart!" then the proper response is "Oh thanks but (s)he isn't that good."

After I got into college then things eased up quite a bit. I think it was mostly because getting into a good school was the primary motivator for everything pre-college. Also, my parents' views on the American and Chinese educational systems have definitely changed.

[Molyneux]

What Chinese parents understand is that nothing is fun until you're good at it.

Bull. Shit.
It's far too late tonight to write a full response to that excerpt, but everything she writes sounds like she doesn't want her children to be able to actually decide anything for themselves. No social life, no control over extracurriculars...pushing a child to excel is one thing, and is admirable (to a sane extent). Preventing them any control at all over their own life skirts close to abuse, at the very least.

[Broomstick]

My gut reaction to this:

Here are some things my daughters, Sophia and Louisa, were never allowed to do:
...[snip]....
• not be the No. 1 student in every subject except gym and drama

Is that this is a recipe for disaster. Only ONE child per class can actually be that number one. That means in a class of 20 there are 19 failures? Ridiculous.

High performance is one thing. Unrealistic expectations that a child be number one at all times in all academic classes without exception is just that - unrealistic. At least for 99.99% of students.

[AniThyng]

My gut reaction to this:

Here are some things my daughters, Sophia and Louisa, were never allowed to do:
...[snip]....
• not be the No. 1 student in every subject except gym and drama

Is that this is a recipe for disaster. Only ONE child per class can actually be that number one. That means in a class of 20 there are 19 failures? Ridiculous.

High performance is one thing. Unrealistic expectations that a child be number one at all times in all academic classes without exception is just that - unrealistic. At least for 99.99% of students.

Well duh? I spent my elementary and high school years in the top classes and the same "less than A might as well be fail" attitude and obviously those of us that didnt place 1st in class weren't failures in the eyes of our asian parents. Taking it at face value is as absurd as saying that the 'western' way leads to spoilt brats

[Broomstick]

That takes us back to the media distorting what was really in the book, though, doesn't it?

[Hawkwings]

The spoken expectations and the actual expectations are different. Certainly in China, when all the kids are being pushed like this, and someone has to be the best (and the worst) in the class. Here in the US it's a bit different seeing as how American students are "inferior" and therefore said chinese kid should be the best in everything. But as things get harder in school, at least from my personal experience, my parents backed off a little. It certainly helped that there was no good way to tell who was the "best" in every class as the rankings weren't published. The practice of having multiple levels of classes helped too. As long as I was taking the most difficult classes, and as long as I was up there with the best people in each class (which invariably ended up being the same group of 10 or so people) then I was doing "OK" academically and I didn't get the lecture.

[The Vortex Empire]

Some of this is just stupid, some of it comes pretty close to abuse. Treating a kid like this could break them.

• play any instrument other than the piano or violin
• not play the piano or violin.

This is in the first category. What makes a violin or piano better than any other instrument?

What Chinese parents understand is that nothing is fun until you're good at it.

Also in the first category. This is a load of bullshit. If nothing was fun until you're good at it, nobody would enjoy anything enough to become good at it.

[Molyneux]

Some of this is just stupid, some of it comes pretty close to abuse. Treating a kid like this could break them.

• play any instrument other than the piano or violin
• not play the piano or violin.

This is in the first category. What makes a violin or piano better than any other instrument?

What Chinese parents understand is that nothing is fun until you're good at it.

Also in the first category. This is a load of bullshit. If nothing was fun until you're good at it, nobody would enjoy anything enough to become good at it.

But of course - a broken child is an obedient child, and without any pesky social life to get in the way, they won't have any distractions from schoolwork.

I do think the piano and violin are generally viewed as instruments for intellectuals - Heaven forfend that a child actually want to play trumpet or saxophone, or (lawks!) guitar.

[aerius]

But as things get harder in school, at least from my personal experience, my parents backed off a little. It certainly helped that there was no good way to tell who was the "best" in every class as the rankings weren't published. The practice of having multiple levels of classes helped too. As long as I was taking the most difficult classes, and as long as I was up there with the best people in each class (which invariably ended up being the same group of 10 or so people) then I was doing "OK" academically and I didn't get the lecture.

With my family and pretty much all of our family friends, the expectation is straight A's up until university, then after that you damn well better be in the top 10-20% of every class. Since a lot of courses are graded on a curve it more or less works out to the same thing. My parents were actually pretty generous compared to others here, as long as I passed they didn't care since my dad never thought I'd make it into university in the first place, let alone score a small scholarship.

[Broomstick]

• play any instrument other than the piano or violin
• not play the piano or violin.

This is in the first category. What makes a violin or piano better than any other instrument?

Social status.

It's funny - call an instrument a violin it's high class. Call it a fiddle and some want nothing to do with it. It's the same damn thing.

What Chinese parents understand is that nothing is fun until you're good at it.

Also in the first category. This is a load of bullshit. If nothing was fun until you're good at it, nobody would enjoy anything enough to become good at it.

Quite.

I have a friend with a kid gonzo on gymnastics. She has always been gonzo for it. Growing up, if she didn't behave the parents didn't ground her, they took away her balance beam or denied her practice. Kid wound up going to college on a full sports scholarship. She's so self-driven they had to hold her back at times to prevent problems. But that sort of drive is inborn, you can't force a kid to be that motivated, and it's rare. If you're having to stand over a kid and force them to practice anything 3-4 hours a day they might do well but they won't be that level of champion.

Now, for some things, pushing the kid IS required. Some things must be learned, like language, math, science, and so forth. But while you can force a kid to practice piano you can't force them to be great, and you can't force them to keep playing after they're adult. In that case... why spend all that effort on a skill that's going to be discarded at 18 or 20? Better to devote that level effort to something that will be used life-long.