Stormtrooper rifles

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-02-17 08:04pm

jaeger115 wrote:
Oh, yeah, beofre you bring it up, the hologram projector is clumsy and unwieldy, presenting vision in a 3-D form. The reason Luke had problems seeing out of a helmet in ANH, I believe, was because he either had the projector out of focus or he had it turned all the way off.
Or maybe he wasn't trained to use it?

I think it's unlikely that you'd have to use a system where you'd be forced to learn to see in a new way, more likely it wasn't configured for his general build.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-02-17 08:06pm

Darth Servo wrote:Recruits are much quicker and cheaper.

Depends on the type of equipment you got, when you can make batches of fully trained veteran soldiers by the tens of thousands every two weeks with one facility, then it has to be good.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2003-02-18 11:24pm

Darth Servo wrote:Every instance of the Stormtroopers "sucking" has a reasonable explanation, like Vader wanting Leia to escape in ANH so that the Falcon could be tracked back to the rebel base.

How many times does this need to be repeated?

Their performance on Cloud City?

I would like to state that I think Stormies have an unfair reputation, against regular characters they perform damn well.

Same can be said for even red shirts.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-18 11:40pm

Kamakazie Sith wrote:Their performance on Cloud City?

Where they had obviously been ordered to let them escape, perhaps because Vader foresaw that they might be needed to save Luke? They fucking sabotaged the Falcon's hyperdrive system and then left it unguarded. Think about this for a minute.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2003-02-19 12:47am

Darth Wong wrote:
Kamakazie Sith wrote:Their performance on Cloud City?
Where they had obviously been ordered to let them escape, perhaps because Vader foresaw that they might be needed to save Luke? They fucking sabotaged the Falcon's hyperdrive system and then left it unguarded. Think about this for a minute.

Interesting hypothesis, and it is possible given Vaders hidden plans for his son.

Perhaps the novel will give more insight into it.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-02-19 12:52am

Novel never expanded upon it, except what the movie showed.

Piett under Vader's orders had the Millenium Falcon's Hyperdrive disabled.

Essentially it was a back up plan, to which one could see why Stormtroopers missed and essentially herded them towards the ship instead of a dead end corridor.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2003-02-19 12:57am

Ghost Rider wrote:Novel never expanded upon it, except what the movie showed.

Piett under Vader's orders had the Millenium Falcon's Hyperdrive disabled.

Essentially it was a back up plan, to which one could see why Stormtroopers missed and essentially herded them towards the ship instead of a dead end corridor.

Actually after looking at the facts and reviewing that scene in the movie, I agree with Dr. Wong now....

DocHorror · Post by **DocHorror** » 2003-02-19 03:01pm

I see the sabotaging of the hyperdrive as a backup plan in case things went wonky...

I do not believe they were being 'herded' or anything else of that nature...

There was no grand complex plan involving 'letting them think they got away only to be recaptured later' - the stormtroopers simply couldn't capture them. why? plot device, character shields, whatever...

Vader wanted Luke. He wasn't that concerned about the rest, though it is likely he suspected Lando would double-cross him...thats why he had the Hyprdrive deactivated... Im sure if the stormtroopers had either recaptured or killed Lando, Leia & Chewbacca in Cloud City he wouldn't have been too upset.

Setesh · Post by **Setesh** » 2003-02-23 03:45am

I'd like to point out that the recent Star Wars: Empire comic series shows both clone Stormtroopers and volunteers. The clones seem to be treated like cannon fodder used for boardings, ect. While the volunteer we see is telling a girl about how he's getting out.

Luke couldn't see out of the helmet because his eyes didn't align with the projectors (Aren't yopu a little short for a stormtrooper) You may notice Han seems to have no difficulties.

The battledroids are really designed for intimidation and mass combat, so they don't have to be accurate. They win through numbers. The 'Super'battledroids displayed a great deal more accuracy, the first 2-5 shots had to be deflected, then their aim got sidetracked, I'd rate them about as accurate as an AK-47, the first few rounds are dead on then the recoil spoils the aim.

Post by **AdmiralKanos** » 2003-02-23 03:49am

DocHorror wrote:I see the sabotaging of the hyperdrive as a backup plan in case things went wonky...

Right, as if that would have been easier than simply draining the ship's fuel tank or stationing troops on board and closing up the hatch.

I do not believe they were being 'herded' or anything else of that nature...

There was no grand complex plan involving 'letting them think they got away only to be recaptured later' - the stormtroopers simply couldn't capture them. why? plot device, character shields, whatever...

If they hadn't gotten away, Luke would have fallen to his death, remember? Jedi and Sith can often see the future, but over long terms, not so clearly that they can see precisely what will happen. Vader may have realized on some level that there was a reason to let them get away.

Vader wanted Luke. He wasn't that concerned about the rest, though it is likely he suspected Lando would double-cross him...thats why he had the Hyprdrive deactivated... Im sure if the stormtroopers had either recaptured or killed Lando, Leia & Chewbacca in Cloud City he wouldn't have been too upset.

Since Luke would have fallen to his death from his precarious perch below Cloud City, he would have been quite upset.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-02-23 01:09pm

Setesh wrote:I'd like to point out that the recent Star Wars: Empire comic series shows both clone Stormtroopers and volunteers. The clones seem to be treated like cannon fodder used for boardings, ect. While the volunteer we see is telling a girl about how he's getting out.

Luke couldn't see out of the helmet because his eyes didn't align with the projectors (Aren't yopu a little short for a stormtrooper) You may notice Han seems to have no difficulties.

The battledroids are really designed for intimidation and mass combat, so they don't have to be accurate. They win through numbers. The 'Super'battledroids displayed a great deal more accuracy, the first 2-5 shots had to be deflected, then their aim got sidetracked, I'd rate them about as accurate as an AK-47, the first few rounds are dead on then the recoil spoils the aim.

Interesting. What is the ratios of clones to volunteers, you'd say? And what else do we know about them? What jobs are clones assigned to? What jobs are volunteers assigned to?

Setesh · Post by **Setesh** » 2003-02-23 04:50pm

Hard to say, the volenteer we see is playing bodyguard to a grand admiral.

Patrick Ogaard · Post by **Patrick Ogaard** » 2003-02-23 05:45pm

An essential problem with an army composed of sapient clones like the clonetroopers is the following: retirement.

Regular clonetroopers are, per the statement from the Kaminoan tour guide and also per Amidala being able to immediately change a clonetrooper's mind and order him around, extremely gullible.

Clonetroopers have doubled growth rates, and if that translates into a doubled rate of aging once full growth is achieved, clones will be all but useless as assault infantry around age 30 (including the ten years of childhood/training), and even Star Wars geriatric care is unlikely to make them last past 50. A trooper at age 30 will have a biological age of 60, and age 40 translates into a biological age of 80.

Cloned troops, especially clonetroopers, have no useful civilian skills unless these are made part of training or flying a gunship qualifies one for a job as a taxi driver on Coruscant.

Cloned troops don't appear to get paid while in service, nor do they appear to have pension funds to see them through their retirement.

Thus, what to do with superannuated clones? How can one release into the general population a horde of old men with no social skills, no money, no useful civilian skills, and, most importantly, with a level of genetically built in gullibility that approaches a severe mental disability?

Three choices:

1. Let them go anyways and live with the resulting mess.

2. Keep the clones on active duty until every last one of a given generation dies of old age and live with the efficiency and image of octogenarian troops trying to drag themselves along wheezing under the weight of armor and gun.

3. Deliberately send aging units into suicide engagements, thus losing their gear and necessitating the presence of a persistent enemy force capable of slaughtering your troops and thus embarassing your forces and harming your image.

4. Have overage troops murdered en masse, such as through poisoning their rations.

At some point, someone is going to notice that the system was not thought through all the way to its assorted logical conclusions, and if that someone is a cloned officer with less gullibility programming than the troops under his command, one has a rebellion of cloned troops and a big, big embarassment once again.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-02-23 06:13pm

It has to be #4. They must be "retired."

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-02-23 06:29pm

I think there can be further scenarios:

5. Old Clonetroopers are sent somewhere that is dedicated to being a sort of retirement home for clone-troopers, a clone retirement centre IOW,
6. They are re-educated and put in other goverment/private jobs, maybe civilian ones
7. They are promoted to officers where they can serve longer due to lighter physical requirements

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-02-23 06:32pm

Also, if they do not age normally, heck, maybe they can even slow the aging process after maturing, then they can be used quite some time, which would be a precedent for clones, they last very long once they're mature.

Setesh · Post by **Setesh** » 2003-02-23 11:16pm

It could also be that the accelerated growth requires chemical triggers to function, without the chemical they age normally.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-02-23 11:28pm

His Divine Shadow wrote:I think there can be further scenarios:

5. Old Clonetroopers are sent somewhere that is dedicated to being a sort of retirement home for clone-troopers, a clone retirement centre IOW,

I doubt Palpatine would fund this for clone troops that "do not exist" and who would cost money.

His Divine Shadow wrote:6. They are re-educated and put in other goverment/private jobs, maybe civilian ones

Again, costs money.

His Divine Shadow wrote:7. They are promoted to officers where they can serve longer due to lighter physical requirements

They can't all be promoted to support staff or officers.

I say they're probably a combination of 4., "suicided" and, 7., shifted to support and officers.

Patrick Ogaard · Post by **Patrick Ogaard** » 2003-02-24 02:26am

His Divine Shadow wrote:I think there can be further scenarios:

5. Old Clonetroopers are sent somewhere that is dedicated to being a sort of retirement home for clone-troopers, a clone retirement centre IOW,
6. They are re-educated and put in other goverment/private jobs, maybe civilian ones
7. They are promoted to officers where they can serve longer due to lighter physical requirements

No. 5 might work, though it would have to be something along the lines of a planet-wide mental institution. The clones have to be kept separate from the general population because the clones lack the skills and strength of will to be able to deal with normal humans outside of a strictly military context.

No. 6 should really not work. The only possible jobs would be those with strict supervision and no authority at all, jobs more cheaply taken care of by droids. And how does one deal with the fact that a typical civilianized clone should end its first week of independent life the proud owner of seven encyclopedia sets, a lifetime subscription to every periodical ever published in the galaxy, a standing order with Imperial Home Shopping to buy two of everything shown, three live-in "friends" with full power of attorney, and membership in every fringe group that comes knocking at the door?

No. 7 seems unlikely for the simple reason that the clonetroopers, as the prototypical clone force, already have their officers and NCOs ready made. Presumably each additional rank means additional strength of will, and thus potential real world coping ability. What it also means is that the mass of troopers is genetically unsuited to anything resembling promotion. The carefully engineered inability of common troopers to resist any kind of authority figure, including those people able to merely present themselves as having authority, would make common troopers a bad choice as officer material. Add in the possibility of joint operations with regular recruited sapients, such as normally born human soldiers, and a common trooper clone promoted to officer rank would be mercilessly taken advantage of by every motor pool sergeant or battalion commander's adjutant.

Of course, perhaps that is where the Clone Wars go sour. The clone officers realize they and their troops are being screwed royally after putting their lives on the line. Huge contingents of clone troops begin to rebel and go on transgalactic rampages.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-02-24 02:41am

Illuminatus Primus wrote:I doubt Palpatine would fund this for clone troops that "do not exist" and who would cost money.

Doesn't matter if it costs money, this is still the OR we're talking about, such a thing would never pass, and there's still the senate, which exists for quite some time after the OR.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-02-26 01:48am

His Divine Shadow wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:I doubt Palpatine would fund this for clone troops that "do not exist" and who would cost money.
Doesn't matter if it costs money, this is still the OR we're talking about, such a thing would never pass, and there's still the senate, which exists for quite some time after the OR.

Yes but cloning under the Empire, Senate or not, was kept secret.

smokemare · Post by **smokemare** » 2003-02-26 04:32am

Just a quick note - I was under the impressoin that the clones are given growth acceleration drugs, then when they reach an age where they can be combat effective the drugs are stopped and they age normally.

I'd have to look for reference on that though. Might be AoTC, haven't seen it in a while... Or Novelisation?

As it stands at the moment the EU says a good proportion Stormtroopers are recruits. That hasn't really been contadicted by a canon source so I would think until Episode III comes out, and possibly even afterwards it might not be possible to resolve this.

I personally doubt the Empire would want to spend the huge amount of credtis to grow clones, when a training program for recruits would be cheaper and quicker. At the same time the original clones that survive EIII must become Sotrmtroopers. At what proportion is anybody's guess.

I suppose it's entirely possible the proportion fluctuates constantly. If the Empire was planning a big operation in the future that required 'Elite' Troops then maybe they would grow a batch of clones to perform it.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-02-26 05:22pm

I believe the age acceleration is done genetically, so that the life cycles themselves are doubled.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-02-27 02:12am

I have a hard time believing that the doubled aging speed continues after maturity, they'd go through the troops to fast, I believe it only applies to the first 10 or so years, if anything they should try and slow it down after so troops last longer and they can have more veterans in the force.

Captain tycho · Post by **Captain tycho** » 2003-02-27 02:25am

Setesh wrote:It could also be that the accelerated growth requires chemical triggers to function, without the chemical they age normally.

That's certainly possible, or it could just be gene therapy that can be stopped whenever the trooper has reached an appropriate age.